View Full Version : review Essendon List Review
OK people, have been a little sceptical to post this, but feel now is the right time to do so.
We have been crap all year and we all never imagined the losses of Matthew Lloyd, Scott Lucas, Adam Mcphee and Andrew Lovett, whilst our rookies had a case of FIGJAM (F*** I'm Good Just Ask Me - According to Whomb) and had to be moved on.
The players brought in this year were a bit of a mixed bunch really. The acquisition of the highly rated Jake Melksham and the livewire Travis Colyer were looking to the future for the Essendon Football Club, the inclusion of Jake Carlisle seems like a really inspired choice and as cover for the injury prone Scott Gumbleton and un fit Jay Neagle. The last player we added seems to be more of a historical choice with the Long family name continuing the tradition at Essendon. In the Pre Season draft we stupidly over looked the draftee of the year in Michael Barlow for the high flying utility from the West in Kyle Hardingham.
The rookies are where the mixing comes in. Taite Silverlock (# 14) seems like a really good choice. The tough in and under player from West Adelaide had carved himself as a permanent midfielder in the rise of the Bendigo Bombers this season. Our next rookie pick, Ben Howlett is another mature aged pick up. The 21 year old Peel Thunder B&F winner has played 12 of the 19 games this year to put his hand up as one of the recruits of the year. The last three players Essendon recruited in the rookie draft were all speculative and some even say "to bolster the Bendigo list". Stuart Crameri, Marcus Marigliani and the injury prone John Williams have all had good periods at Bendigo this year but do not see a future for them at Essendon. All mature aged pick ups (admittedly Williams is only 20 and already been on our list for 2 years) who should have been given a chance in the senior side, but for one reason or another been over looked.
Now to the defence.
This is one area that I feel we have under control. Well the key position posts any ways. Michael Hurley has taken control of his own destiny in the past few weeks since he has moved back to his customary role in defence, rather than the trial of him playing in attack. Cale Hooker, the pick # 54 in the 2007 draft has been one Essendon's most improved players this year. He has done some super jobs including his job on St.Kilda captain Nick Riewoldt in the round 18 win. Add to these two is the injured Tayte Pears who has shown he is going to be a gem of a player in years to come once he grows and matures more, gets games under his belt and plays with the other two for years.
The small running/lock down players is where Essendon are really lacking. Mark Mcveigh has shown he is probably our most reliable small defender this year after coming back from injury. Him and Henry Slattery are both solid defenders, but are they going to take us to premiership success? In the wings we have young Tyson Slattery who showed in his one game he is not overawed by the big league. After Tyson, we do not have anyone else that is able to play that lock down defender role, one area we really need to look at.
The running backs is another area of great concern for Essendon. 'The Dempsey Project' has simply not worked. He is a front runner and does not want to work hard enough getting back to do what he needs to do first, DEFEND! Stanton to half back has been a master stroke from Matthew Knights, and I am one of a few who is currently eating humble pie. He is a good decision maker coming out of defence but feel his gut running could be used to a better advantage on a wing, rather than just a half back flank. Other players to have rotated through here at various times thus year including Hocking, Myers, Atkinson, Riemers and even Welsh have played here. None of these guys are going to be world beaters, nor do I even think they are going to be good enough to take us to a premiership. Some do need to be kept for depth, but some tough calls on these guys have to be made for us to move forward.
MIDFIELD
One area that we need to greatly improve for us to remotely be more competitive in 2011. Apart from our inspirational leader Jobe Watson, do we have any A graders in our team? I don't think so. We have a very good group of depth players but do not posses a midfield that is going to be a premiership threat. The inclusion of Howlett, who in the past month has been sensational has added another strong body player to our midfield. The young midfield group we currently have are all small, skinny or simply not up to it. One player I think has been a better player after some added responsibility is Sam Lonergan, however, is he a best 22 player? or simply a depth/bench player?
It is the right time to start making some tough decisions on guys like Ricky Dyson, David Myers, Leroy Jetta, Nathan Lovett-Murray and even Jason Winderlich. If we are able to improve our draft position with the trading of some of these guys, then we need should do it.
FORWARDS: This is one area of real conern to myself. Who would of thought the retirements of Scott Lucas and Matthew Lloyd would have such a damming effect on our team? Scott Gumbleton has shown some really good signs for a relative 'first year' player, whilst Jay Neagle straightens us up more than alot of people realise. He (Neagle) may not get alot of it, but he does average 2 goals a game. Give him a better midfield and we could maybe even get that up to 2.5/3 goals a game. Some real questions also need to be answered about the forwards: Is Kyle Hardingham better suited to defence or as a forward? why is Zaharakis playing forward when he has kicked 19.18 this year and looks better suited to playing midfield? Why is Mark Williams being traded for when Monfries was always playing a similar role? I think we need to add a class third tall forward as Monfries is too hot and cold, whilst Mark Williams is injured and I could see him retiring before his contract is up.
TOUGH CALLS:
People on here like to look at the 'protected species' at the Essendon Football Club. Players like David Myers and Courtenay Dempsey seem to be 'Gods' around here, yet fail to deliver when given a go in the senior side.
Come the end of the year, I feel we really need to turn the list over as we have too many 'pretenders' at Essendon and not enough defenders.
Some tough calls need to be made on Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Jarrod Atkinson, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Bachar Houli, Michael Quinn, Marcus Marigliani, Stuart Crameri and John Williams.
I would:
Delist: Jarrod Atkinson, Stuart Crameri, Marcus Marigliani, Jason Laycock, John Williams
Trade: Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Bachar Houli.
This would leave us with 5 spots on the senior list with one of these taken by Ben Howlett (rookie elevation), whilst Mark Mcveigh would be moved onto the veterans list and counter the rookie elevation of Howlett, leaving us with 4 National Draft picks.
DRAFTING:
In the draft we would have (currently sit 12th), picks 12, 31, 48 & (actually unsure) 65.
Pick 12: I would like to see us draft a really classy midfielder. One that is able to play both inside or out. Brodie Smith fits the bill. The South Australian captain, a 188cm 87kg midfielder from Woodville West Torrens has been playing senior football this year, mostly out of defence but took his game up a gear when the championships came around. ..His coach Brenton Phillips went on to say that Smith may have won the Larke Medal for the best player in division one had he not missed round 1 due to a corked thigh.
On the other hand, another player I rate highly is young Stingray captain Luke Parker, who has had an outstanding year for Dandenong. He had a quiet championships but is certainly a proven performer. Parker is described as someone who can leap and mark however his ambitions sometimes exceed his expectations. His Stingrays Coach Rob Hyde says "he does some outstanding work in traffic.. he has a lot of development ahead". So certainly another player who would be a great acquisition for the Essendon Football Club.
Pick 31: Best available. I would like to think that the Bombers can go best availble here.
Pick 48: Ruckmen. Could be a mature aged ruckmen or even a rookie ruckmen. I would like to see a ruckmen added here.
Pick 65: Possibly a mature aged player. Like the look of young Michael Stockdale from Casey Scorpions. A tough hard small defender who had a very good game for the VFL state side in this years state game. I would love to see him at Essendon this time next year.
Rookie Picks: David Meli - Our international Rookie is due to be recruited this year. We will surely give him a go, and will let him have his time serving an apprenticeship at Bendigo in coming years.
Rookie Pick # 2: James Webster - NSW Scholarship kid who has been ok without being outstanding at struggling GWS (TAC Cup side). His attack on the ball is good whilst his skills do let him down at times, he is very good in close. Would love to see him given a chance at Essendon.
Rookie Pick # 3: Best available. Any unidentified talent out there, get it. If we do last to this long, this is what we should do..
Now for the scathing attacks:
Scott Camporeale; We need to improve our midfield and sadly 'Campo' has not helped us to improve in this area despite having been in charge for three years now.
Adrian Dodoro; Is your time up Adrian? Has really been a bit better in recent years, but would like to see him get some winners earlier in the draft rather than living off 'late pick gems' like Cale Hooker.
Gary O Donnell; Is GoD time up? Has been at Essendon for a number of years now and feel that he may have given us all he can give. Would like to see someone else given his role.
Time for some reviews..
A comprehensive review HFF.
Definitely agree that we need to be bold and make more than the minumum 3 list changes.
Would trade Prismall/M.Williams - Another bold move.
Would like one of Crameri/Marigliani be elevated to the senior list for the last three rounds.
It is imperative that Silverlock is tied up - We dont want a Mumford situation.
Will provide a more comprehensive review later.
The Dustbin
8 Aug 2010, 17:22
Tough calls don't need to be made on Crameri and muscles as they are not on the senior list.
Remember we weren't the only club to overlook Barlow in the draft, and Hardingham has shown more then enough to suggest he has a future.
I'd delist/trade Jetta, Laycock, Atkinson and Welsh (won't happen).
Spot on with the reviews of the coaching panel.
Finally, good to see Lonergan and Zaka finally playing as midfielders. Lonergan is critical when Watson is off the ground.
Haven't had a chance to read yet but what strikes me is that you've started a list review thread when you insisted on merging all delisting/trade/list management related threads into one.
Does not compute.
edstar10
8 Aug 2010, 17:30
would love cam o'shea at pick 31 if he is still available, he is quick and tall and can complement watson in the middle, i rate him as a top 10 pick but he has been injured, i dont think we can go wrong with our first pick, and one pick should be used for a ruckman.
The Donners
8 Aug 2010, 17:38
We desperately need a small defender, Slattery doesn't cut it, Dempsey isn't a defender's arsehole and I'd like to see him on the wing or up forward in a move ala Jamie Bennell and I'd say by this time next year McVeigh will be finished.
Crimsons
8 Aug 2010, 17:47
Trade: Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Bachar Houli.
What are you hoping to get from trading them ? Personally I don't think they will have much trade value. They won't get us a decent player or a decent draft pick.
Some tough calls need to be made on Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Jarrod Atkinson, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Bachar Houli, Michael Quinn, Marcus Marigliani, Stuart Crameri and John Williams.
Most of the players listed above aren't really tough calls. For me tough calls would be Darcy Daniher, Ricky Dyson, Dustin Fletcher, Sam Lonergan, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Mark McVeigh, Henry Slattery, Andrew Welsh, Mark Williams, Heath Hocking
Some maybe contracted, but I would consider delisting some of them instead of Jetta, Myers & Houli. Most of the players in the above group aren't going to get any better, and most likely won't be around when we are a competitive side.
Haven't had a chance to read yet but what strikes me is that you've started a list review thread when you insisted on merging all delisting/trade/list management related threads into one.
Does not compute.
The Essendon Mods have spoken about this and told me off, but have left threads open that continue to attract interest.
After a while the thread is then merged ;)
We desperately need a small defender, Slattery doesn't cut it, Dempsey isn't a defender's arsehole and I'd like to see him on the wing or up forward in a move ala Jamie Bennell and I'd say by this time next year McVeigh will be finished.
Mcveigh finished :eek:
There is a small defender by the name of Michael Stockdale playing at Casey this year. A 20 year old with pace to burn and has good skills to match. Was drafted late into the VFL state squad and played a crucial part in repelling constant WAFL attacks.
I think he would be a super pick up as maybe a mature aged recruit, although he is only 20 :D
Most of the players listed above aren't really tough calls. For me tough calls would be Darcy Daniher, Ricky Dyson, Dustin Fletcher, Sam Lonergan, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Mark McVeigh, Henry Slattery, Andrew Welsh, Mark Williams, Heath Hocking
Some maybe contracted, but I would consider delisting some of them instead of Jetta, Myers & Houli. Most of the players in the above group aren't going to get any better, and most likely won't be around when we are a competitive side.
Some tough calls need to be made on some of these so called 'gun' players to be..
Would you get more for a young player who 'has more upside', or a 'washed up old hack'?
Crimsons
8 Aug 2010, 18:22
Clearly 'potential' doesn't always transfer into productivity. However, consdering the current state of the list, I would rather continue to develop the Myers, Houli, Jetta, etc. then persist with Welsh, Dyson, Lonergan, Nathan Lovett-Murray etc.
I think some of your calls are a little bit short sighted. I think if we are going to trade Leroy then why not wait until GWS come in? Sheedy would want him back you would think. Myers would be worth sweet FA on the trade table but has actually shown a lot more this year than in the past I would say he is worth having on the list. Bachar is an interesting one. His last few games of the year might tell a story. I think he could now become critically important to our awful midfield.
The player I'd be looking at more to get rid of would be the likes of: Atko, Lonergan, NLM, Laycock, Dyson and even retiring Welsh. I think in those 5 we would be removing much less talent than ditching Houli, Jetta and Myers.
OK
Truth be told, we need to do kinda what Fremantle did and clean out like 10 - 12 players in the next couple of years..
Only down side is, a couple of things, GWS and GC tearing apart the drafts in the next two years..
kelvin_sheedy
8 Aug 2010, 18:50
Our list was in reasonable shape with Lovett and McPhee. We lost both for zero.
All we needed is another quality mid and another quality utility. Now that we've lost them we have to basically find 4 quality players.
We need to get lucky and have either David Myers come from the clouds and become a good player or trade in a bonafide mid.
Here's what we need to do:
Trade Prismall - he still has some currency.
Trade M. Williams - too expensive and we have younger options who need game time.
Welsh - tell him his contract next year is his last and he'll have to do something magical to get another one. Could be trade value to Sheeds GWS.
Put NLM, Dyson, Lonergan on the trade table and see what we can get. They might survive if we get rid of the first 3. We still need some experience around, season is long, injuries and they can be good players in a better side.
Defensive personal - I'm not too worried. You could have the AA side playing for us and they'll still cop 100 points regularly with our game plan. We need to find a post McVeigh lock down defender. Slattery should be able to do the job in a reasonable side.
Dempsey will prosper when the team stops leaking like a sieve. I reckon we could go into games next year with a back six of Fletcher, Hurley, Hooker, Pears, McVeigh, Dempsey.
Our list was in reasonable shape with Lovett and McPhee. We lost both for zero.
All we needed is another quality mid and another quality utility. Now that we've lost them we have to basically find 4 quality players.
We need to get lucky and have either David Myers come from the clouds and become a good player or trade in a bonafide mid.
Here's what we need to do:
Trade Prismall - he still has some currency.
Trade M. Williams - too expensive and we have younger options who need game time.
Welsh - tell him his contract next year is his last and he'll have to do something magical to get another one. Could be trade value to Sheeds GWS.
Put NLM, Dyson, Lonergan on the trade table and see what we can get. They might survive if we get rid of the first 3. We still need some experience around, season is long, injuries and they can be good players in a better side.
Defensive personal - I'm not too worried. You could have the AA side playing for us and they'll still cop 100 points regularly with our game plan. We need to find a post McVeigh lock down defender. Slattery should be able to do the job in a reasonable side.
Dempsey will prosper when the team stops leaking like a sieve. I reckon we could go into games next year with a back six of Fletcher, Hurley, Hooker, Pears, McVeigh, Dempsey.
Good write up Kelvin_Sheedy :thumbsu:
Really think that we need to do a melbourne and play these young guys ahead of these older guys who are slowing us down..
Agree with everything kelvin's written, the only exception being I'd rather Dempsey up the field.
Atkinson, Jarrod - 2010
Bellchambers, Tom - 2011 (not confirmed)
Carlisle, Jake - 2011
Colyer, Travis - 2011
Daniher, Darcy - 2011 (not confirmed)
Davey, Alwyn - 2010
Dempsey, Courtenay - 2012
Dyson, Ricky - 2011
Fletcher, Dustin - 2010 (veteran)
Gumbleton, Scott - 2010
Hardingham, Kyle - 2011
Hille, David - 2012 - re-signed 5/4
Hocking, Heath - 2011
Hooker, Cale - 2011
Houli, Bachar - 2010
Hurley, Michael - 2012 - re-signed 5/3
Jetta, Leroy - 2010
Laycock, Jason - 2010
Lonergan, Sam - 2010
Long, Anthony - 2011
Lovett-Murray, Nathan - 2011
Melksham, Jake - 2011
McVeigh, Mark - 2010
Monfries, Angus - 2012 - re-signed 7/15
Myers, David - 2010
Neagle, Jay - 2011
Pears, Tayte - 2011
Prismall, Brent - 2011
Reimers, Kyle - 2010
Ryder, Patrick - 2012
Slattery, Henry - 2010
Slattery, Tyson - 2010
Stanton, Brent - 2010
Still, Michael - 2010
Watson, Jobe - 2013 - re-signed 5/11
Welsh, Andrew - 2011
Williams, Mark - 2012
Winderlich, Jason - 2011
Zaharakis, David - 2012
Obvious things
Delist Atkinson, Laycock. Do our best to trade Prismall. promote howlett.
then wait until we find out who we lose to the GC before deciding other things. think about putting still on the rookie list. offer reimers, myers, houil up for trade bait.
Atkinson, Jarrod - 2010
Bellchambers, Tom - 2011 (not confirmed)
Carlisle, Jake - 2011
Colyer, Travis - 2011
Daniher, Darcy - 2011 (not confirmed)
Davey, Alwyn - 2010
Dempsey, Courtenay - 2012
Dyson, Ricky - 2011
Fletcher, Dustin - 2010 (veteran)
Gumbleton, Scott - 2010
Hardingham, Kyle - 2011
Hille, David - 2012 - re-signed 5/4
Hocking, Heath - 2011
Hooker, Cale - 2011
Houli, Bachar - 2010
Hurley, Michael - 2012 - re-signed 5/3
Jetta, Leroy - 2010
Laycock, Jason - 2010
Lonergan, Sam - 2010
Long, Anthony - 2011
Lovett-Murray, Nathan - 2011
Melksham, Jake - 2011
McVeigh, Mark - 2010
Monfries, Angus - 2012 - re-signed 7/15
Myers, David - 2010
Neagle, Jay - 2011
Pears, Tayte - 2011
Prismall, Brent - 2011
Reimers, Kyle - 2010
Ryder, Patrick - 2012
Slattery, Henry - 2010
Slattery, Tyson - 2010
Stanton, Brent - 2010
Still, Michael - 2010
Watson, Jobe - 2013 - re-signed 5/11
Welsh, Andrew - 2011
Williams, Mark - 2012
Winderlich, Jason - 2011
Zaharakis, David - 2012
Obvious things
Delist Atkinson, Laycock. Do our best to trade Prismall. promote howlett.
then wait until we find out who we lose to the GC before deciding other things. think about putting still on the rookie list. offer reimers, myers, houil up for trade bait.
Phone
keeping Laycock? :eek:
Ludwig van Bertstare
8 Aug 2010, 19:33
What?
BomberTime
8 Aug 2010, 19:47
To put Michael still on the rookie list means we have to delist him and then take him in the rookie draft doesnt it?? So any club can take him before we do? Like Richmond did with polak last year.
To put Michael still on the rookie list means we have to delist him and then take him in the rookie draft doesnt it?? So any club can take him before we do? Like Richmond did with polak last year.
Yeah, which means he will be on the senior list IMO.
Ben the Gooner
8 Aug 2010, 19:53
They're considering making it possible to move players directly to the rookie list. Not sure when that'd be implemented.
Agree with everything kelvin's written, the only exception being I'd rather Dempsey up the field.
So do I, except a couple of little things.
a) Wouldn't trade Lonergan, like him as a depth player and wouldn't have a whole lot of value
b) Would love for T.Slattery to unseat Hooker from the back 6 in the future. Agree Dempsey will be ok when they're al playing together for a while.
Tough decisions need to be made on Welsh and Lovett-Murray, up and down players who have no chance of being part of our next premiership push.
Nuts4Bolts
8 Aug 2010, 20:13
I've had a few today so go easy on me, but did I read in today's paper that the Eagles were contemplating giving up their first pick for Daniel Wells? I know that you should take anything written in the papers with a grain of salt, especially with the Herald Bum and then especially with the Sunday Herald Bum, but if that story was close to the mark would either Jetta or Davey plus Riemers be in the mix? To get it across the line maybe even throw in our second round pick.
I might add that i've no idea on what the draft quality is and whether a No. 4 pick this year would get a gun mid with the Gold Coast concessions.
sup3rfish
8 Aug 2010, 20:25
of those that are out of contract at end of year those that should not be offered new contract and in turn 'traded in' IMO are-
Atkinson... Jetta.... Laycock.... Lonergan.... Henry Slattery...
where does Quinn fall in our list? and when can we get rid of him?!
Should look at trying to get someone like Wells or Aaron Davey to help Watson out.... add to that a medium lock down defender who can use the ball well like Sam Gilbert or Goddard not that many more of those players are out there.... also need a 'defensive forward' seems to be the key word atm.... someone who can tag.... we get hurt when Welsh isnt out there....
wrote a long post b4, but lost it :(. Here's some of what I said:
Dyson- trade him. some value left, otherwise delist
Jetta- one more year. lets see him next year, then go to GWS.
Prismall- Stays. 2 more years, to se whether or not he's worth it.
Welsh- delist. past it.
Lonergan- develop in Welsh's role, play in midfield
Slattery- delist, McVeigh overtaken him
Myers- 2 more years
J. Williams- delist. not up to it
Laycock- delist. same as above
Daniher- delist. too far behind too many players.
tbc...
wrote a long post b4, but lost it :(. Here's some of what I said:
Dyson- trade him. some value left, otherwise delist
Jetta- one more year. lets see him next year, then go to GWS.
Prismall- Stays. 2 more years, to se whether or not he's worth it.
Welsh- delist. past it.
Lonergan- develop in Welsh's role, play in midfield
Slattery- delist, McVeigh overtaken him
Myers- 2 more years
J. Williams- delist. not up to it
Laycock- delist. same as above
Daniher- delist. too far behind too many players.
tbc...
Dyson: Contracted/Trade
Jetta: Delist/Trade - to inconsistant. May have just started showing some signs so will get one more year.
Prismal: A player who gets the ball, could be better suited to half forward with his creativity. Hardly saw him play on ball for Geelong right?
Welsh: Contracted/Trade - doubt anyone would want him.
Lonergan: Un - Contracted/Recontract him - Has shown some really good signs in recent weeks and was one who was on my 'outs' a month ago.
Slattery: Contracted - aint going no where IMO.
Myers: Uncontracted - Give him one more year IMO.
J.Williams: Delist - Need room for Meli
Laycock: Uncontracted/Delist
Daniher: Contracted - lure for Joe Daniher?
TOUGH CALLS:
People on here like to look at the 'protected species' at the Essendon Football Club. Players like David Myers and Courtenay Dempsey seem to be 'Gods' around here, yet fail to deliver when given a go in the senior side.
Come the end of the year, I feel we really need to turn the list over as we have too many 'pretenders' at Essendon and not enough defenders.
Some tough calls need to be made on Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Jarrod Atkinson, Nathan Lovett-Murray, Bachar Houli, Michael Quinn, Marcus Marigliani, Stuart Crameri and John Williams.
I would:
Trade: Leroy Jetta, David Myers, Bachar Houli.
Do you bother looking into why he is a "protected species"?
Both Jetta and Myers are two that have struggled with injuries and general fitness.
As far as I see it they would be drafted or traded for by other clubs because the hard work has been done and we are about at the start of the period of their careers during which they will make meaningful on-field contribuions.
Why the hell would we abandon our development of them now? So we can get another draft pick and draft another "Jetta" or "Myers"?
where does Quinn fall in our list? and when can we get rid of him?!
I've been thinking the same thing. Is he actually worth persisting with? are we able to keep both him and then draft in David Meli?
Do you bother looking into why he is a "protected species"?
Both Jetta and Myers are two that have struggled with injuries and general fitness.
As far as I see it they would be drafted or traded for by other clubs because the hard work has been done and we are about at the start of the period of their careers during which they will make meaningful on-field contribuions.
Why the hell would we abandon our development of them now? So we can get another draft pick and draft another "Jetta" or "Myers"?
I don't read into what others say.. I say what I see at the Bendigo games.
What do you see at Bendigo games?
Every draft pick is speculative, we have just been unlucky that our earlier draft picks in recent years have not been as good as our later ones..
quotemokc
8 Aug 2010, 21:26
Laycock being delisted is a given.
Worth holding onto Houli as he cud either replace Dyson or we cud trade him to GWS
lemon chicken
8 Aug 2010, 22:20
Not in favour of delisting any youngish players (Jetta, Myers, Houli, Still). I think Fletcher (will be shot down for this) is the hardest decision to make about the list. If he goes on it means Tyson Slattery is still playing seconds for another year if injuries go our way. Considering our ladder position we may want to use a pick in the pre-season draft.
SirJimi05
8 Aug 2010, 22:24
HFF was pretty spot on with his list review. Even KS was pretty spot on :eek::eek:
Off the table come trade time:
Ryder, Hurley, Pears, Hooker, Zaharakis, Melksham, Hille, Watson, Fletcher.
Every other player is trade bait. Especially the ones that have currency. We need to make some bold decisionsif we want to movethis club forward.
SirJimi05
8 Aug 2010, 22:29
Laycock being delisted is a given.
Worth holding onto Houli as he cud either replace Dyson or we cud trade him to GWS
Why would GWS trade for a player that they can get for nothing? Doesn't make any sense at all.
whats_at_stake
8 Aug 2010, 22:34
Not in favour of delisting any youngish players (Jetta, Myers, Houli, Still). I think Fletcher (will be shot down for this) is the hardest decision to make about the list. If he goes on it means Tyson Slattery is still playing seconds for another year if injuries go our way. Considering our ladder position we may want to use a pick in the pre-season draft.
I actually agree with you about Fletcher- he is at the moment the only one holding our defence together and the players need to learn how to play without him. Would rather him be signed on as a defensive coach (we really need one given we have the worst defence in the league).
The Fact
8 Aug 2010, 23:23
Why would my post get deleted????
Prog Rocker
8 Aug 2010, 23:43
HFF well done for a fantastic review.I agree pretty much with it all but the question that worries me is:How long does the EFC wait to delist a player at seasons end? Meaning..Should we wait for the Suns to approach our player so we can get compo for him or do we just cleanout and hope for the best?
Crimsons
9 Aug 2010, 00:48
Not in favour of delisting any youngish players (Jetta, Myers, Houli, Still). I think Fletcher (will be shot down for this) is the hardest decision to make about the list. If he goes on it means Tyson Slattery is still playing seconds for another year if injuries go our way.
Agree with both comments. Fletcher not only impacts Tyson Slattery, but also Hurley, Hooker & Pears. We can't play all four in the backline.
gPhonque
9 Aug 2010, 02:17
Now to the defence.....
The small running/lock down players is where Essendon are really lacking....
The running backs is another area of great concern for Essendon....
.....
I would:
Delist: Jarrod Atkinson......
Wow, that makes a lot of sense.
Quite a few people in this thread have said they'd delist Atkinson, and not ONE has given any reason at all as far as I could see.
Atkinson looked decent when he played. He created run for us and held his own down back. Has the occasional brain-fade, but then, so does everybody else in our team.
He seems to get crucified around here, but for no good reason.
The one thing that people constantly overlook when it comes to Atkinson is how well he slots into our structure. He may not ever be a world-beater, but you don't need 18 world-beaters out there. You need 18 players that work together well, and do the team things. Atkinson, in the few games he played earlier in the year, did exactly that for the most part.
Yet people want to delist him. :confused: :thumbsd:
Atkinson is 25, isn't a regular and has serious defensive problems. Of all the other players out of contract this year, he and Laycock offer us the least both right now and in the future. Therefore, he goes.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 08:26
Oh goodie, another thread where someone flogs their favoured hobby horses.
OK people, have been a little sceptical to post this, but feel now is the right time to do so.
Wow, waited until after a shocking loss to do it? How big of you.
Adrian Dodoro; Is your time up Adrian? Has really been a bit better in recent years, but would like to see him get some winners earlier in the draft rather than living off 'late pick gems' like Cale Hooker.
Clearly no idea who the recruiting guy really is. Disappointing that you use that to launch into an attack on blokes. Doubly disappointing now that Keane's been there 2 or 3 drafts. Triply disappointing that you're a mod, and couldn't bother checking your facts. It should be a mod's job to try and keep threads along fairly factually accurate lines, not actively propagate errors.
FWIW This is clearly not the year to make massive wholesale list changes.
Oh and they're not going to delist Myers.
FWIW some of you lot would have delisted 3 of our last 4 captains, going by the standards set.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 08:45
Here's what we need to do:
Trade Prismall - he still has some currency.
Trade M. Williams - too expensive and we have younger options who need game time.
Welsh - tell him his contract next year is his last and he'll have to do something magical to get another one. Could be trade value to Sheeds GWS.
Put NLM, Dyson, Lonergan on the trade table and see what we can get. They might survive if we get rid of the first 3. We still need some experience around, season is long, injuries and they can be good players in a better side.
Defensive personal - I'm not too worried. You could have the AA side playing for us and they'll still cop 100 points regularly with our game plan. We need to find a post McVeigh lock down defender. Slattery should be able to do the job in a reasonable side.
Dempsey will prosper when the team stops leaking like a sieve. I reckon we could go into games next year with a back six of Fletcher, Hurley, Hooker, Pears, McVeigh, Dempsey.
I agree on a fair bit here
- Dempsey. He's the cream, we don't have the cake.
Or rather, our cake only lasts 2 weeks at a time & who wants cream just sitting on a plate?
- Prismall ain't finished yet, but he certainly needs to find some urgency. I'm not sure if he can find it in the 2s, I'm not sure I want to watch him find it in the 1s.
- I don't think Williams would have zero currency to anyone else. Nothing. Zilch.
- I'd be interested hearing (your) thoughts on Jetta, think he'd have some currency.
- If Myers comes good, I think he's roughly what we need. Tall mid who can chase. Not an all-or-nothing sort like all-too many of our boys.
I wouldn't mind us having a look at guys who can do run-with & lock-down roles.
I'd like to see Welsh pushed out of the picture, but I think Friday night showed exactly why we need a defensively-minded player (or three) in the side.
Personally think we're better off trying to improve our draft position this year rather than bring in players. Sides who suddenly lose a player to GC may be chasing something at the trade table. Which may be an opportunity for us to flog off a promising but ultimately disappointing fringe player for a nice upgrade.
The Donners
9 Aug 2010, 09:40
Mcveigh finished :eek:
We'll revisit this in 12 months time. He's already slow and the game is only going to get quicker. Not saying he doesn't have the skill to cut it anymore but I think the game will go past him in less than 12 months.
HighettBomber
9 Aug 2010, 09:52
Laycock and Atkinson are obviously gone, its not even worth debating whether they should be or not. Others that should go:
1. Hank
2. Dyson ( I like him be we have other options that will end up better and need game time)
3. Welsh
4. NLM
I don't think Bock, Quinn or Crameri are worth keeping as rookies, unsure about John Williams. If his defensive skills are good he might be a player down back, I haven't seen enough to comment on this.
Nasty Penguin
9 Aug 2010, 10:20
Retiring Fletch would be the hardest decision to make and I can see the pros and cons of doing so. He could be there for another 4 years the way he's playing especially if he has his mandatory 4-5 game stint on the sidelines for having his gangly arms or legs getting him in trouble. The club needs that experience on field otherwise we'll go backwards again next year. This goes for Spike and Welsh as well they both love the club but form just doesn't excite you when they come back into the side. Spike has been a better performer in the latter half of the season than what welsh is. There are too few leaders at the club right now and only one or two future leaders in Melksham and Hurley.
We need a couple of real mongrel players ala Wallis, Wellman, Soloman, Barnyard. It's what lacks right now with Hille being the only real hard body out there. Jobe's not that sort of player but by god he's a good capt. Originally players like lonergan, hocking and reimers looked to be able to fill those roles of in and under tough nuts of the side but have since been played out of position and not in the guts.
The Dempsey Debarcle. He lives and breaths down hill skiing. Great to watch when the other 5 backmen are covering his arse but when they have their hands full he is exposed for every tom dick and harry to see. Play him as a defensive forward where he is not as accountable to allow him to learn his defensive game under less pressure. Then move him back if need be.
The forward line structure hasn't been settled all year. 2 big holes to fill in Lloyd and Lucas was bigger than expected. Willo was recruited in an attempt to fill one of those holes. The Hurley experiment down forward just didn't work and for now he's a better backman that can go forward in a pinch. It's scarey to think that Davey (22 goals) is the leading goal kicker for the club this season. Gumbleton got through a season and went missing on some occassions but showed the potential that everyone had hoped he would. Neagle just doesn't seem fit or upto the level. Great hands but you wouldn't put your house on him to kick straight. Hardingham was the suprise packet and adds that spark up forward. Monfires hasn't improved from last year it's just more of the same which is a pity as I think he's a barometer for the team.
The club has persisted with Dyson, NLM, lonergan and Slattery for too long. Surely they have some weight on the trade table even if they act as a sweetner to gain a higher draft pick I'd take it.
Houli, Myers, Jetta and Prismall are the four players that need to start showing they are part of the solution and not the cause of the problem. All have downfalls from being indecisive to injury to just going missing in games that matter. Have to be able to stick with them and just not drop them. Houli strung 3 games together and has played one ordinary game from those three. Pris needs to be played on the wing and jetta is a forward pocket player and shouldn't be seen up the ground he's just too small. Myers hasn't been given the chance to string games together at senior level. He's shown glimpse's of brilliance and as a high draft pick needs to be given time at senior level to develop not in one game out the next.
The assistant coaching staff needs a shake up. Campo is the midfield coach and it's just not working. If Simon Black retires and is looking for a coaching gig the club would be stupid not chasing him. With Madden as the ruck coach we've seen the high's that Ryder can reach and the improvement in Belly. Loathed to say it but as long as Knights is at the club Lloyd won't be back. He's ideal as a forward coach and could address some serious goal kicking issues at the club.
The trade period and off season appointments will be an indication as to where the club is going. Put players with niggles in for surgery now so they are ready for a full preseason and play the rookies. Marigliani would be good to see on the big stage as would Carlisle.
Trade: NLM, Lonergan, Slattery, Jetta, Neagle.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 10:33
summary:
"we're too soft. Trade all our harder blokes".
"forwards aren't settled. trade one of them"
Love it.
Nasty Penguin
9 Aug 2010, 11:00
summary:
"we're too soft. Trade all our harder blokes".
"forwards aren't settled. trade one of them"
Love it.
Lonergan, NLM and Slattery aren't hard blokes. They've shown they can be now and then but not consistantly. Cut the deadwood before it's too late.
Neagle has a return of 9.8 from 6 games and just doesn't even look like improving unlike Gumbleton. Would rather see Ryder or Hille as a perma forward and Belly as second ruck. If a fit willo can get on the park along with hardingham and gumbleton it makes for a potent forward line.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 11:21
Since McPhee & Lloyd left, Slatts, NLM & Lonergan are (along with Welsh)our hardest players.
I just have to laugh sometimes that people think what we need is more wingmen/outside runners, then are dismayed when our backs get annihilated by numbers running forward.
What we need is more hardness, more accountability, from front to back.
TheDon35
9 Aug 2010, 11:31
Our list was in reasonable shape with Lovett and McPhee. We lost both for zero.
All we needed is another quality mid and another quality utility. Now that we've lost them we have to basically find 4 quality players.
We need to get lucky and have either David Myers come from the clouds and become a good player or trade in a bonafide mid.
Here's what we need to do:
Trade Prismall - he still has some currency.
Trade M. Williams - too expensive and we have younger options who need game time.
Welsh - tell him his contract next year is his last and he'll have to do something magical to get another one. Could be trade value to Sheeds GWS.
Put NLM, Dyson, Lonergan on the trade table and see what we can get. They might survive if we get rid of the first 3. We still need some experience around, season is long, injuries and they can be good players in a better side.
Defensive personal - I'm not too worried. You could have the AA side playing for us and they'll still cop 100 points regularly with our game plan. We need to find a post McVeigh lock down defender. Slattery should be able to do the job in a reasonable side.
Dempsey will prosper when the team stops leaking like a sieve. I reckon we could go into games next year with a back six of Fletcher, Hurley, Hooker, Pears, McVeigh, Dempsey.
You're appraisal of the list is similar to where I see it. Only problem is the trade options you've put up.
NLM, Lonergan, Prismall, Welsh & Dyson are 4th round draft picks at best. Arguably half of them have no trade currency. The best you'd be looking at for any of these would be a highly speculative kid.
Williams may attract a 3rd round draft swap however his value would have significantly decreased under the inspirational Ignighter this year.
In most cases you actually have to give SOMETHING to get something in return.
kelvin_sheedy
9 Aug 2010, 11:58
You're appraisal of the list is similar to where I see it. Only problem is the trade options you've put up.
NLM, Lonergan, Prismall, Welsh & Dyson are 4th round draft picks at best. Arguably half of them have no trade currency. The best you'd be looking at for any of these would be a highly speculative kid.
Williams may attract a 3rd round draft swap however his value would have significantly decreased under the inspirational Ignighter this year.
In most cases you actually have to give SOMETHING to get something in return.
No point in giving up one B grader for another. We'll find it very hard to attract any decent player eg. bonafide mid. You might as well cut a fringe player or 2 to try and take some speculative picks and hope they turn out.
We should get on our knees and pray for Melksham, Colyer and first pick this year to help out Jobe, Stants, Winders and Howlett. Zaka too. There's enough good kids and talent their to be a top 8 midfield. Add one more in an under and we are pushing up higher once we get a few more games into them.
Our list would be a lot different if we went for someone other than Myers and had kept Lovett.
Need to make finals next year with the above midfield and hope that they all come on and we get lucky. There's no other way. Knights has put us in a hole. Man we could do with Skipworth's leadership right now. :rolleyes:
TheDon35
9 Aug 2010, 12:06
No point in giving up one B grader for another. We'll find it very hard to attract any decent player eg. bonafide mid. You might as well cut a fringe player or 2 to try and take some speculative picks and hope they turn out.
We should get on our knees and pray for Melksham, Colyer and first pick this year to help out Jobe, Stants, Winders and Howlett. Zaka too. There's enough good kids and talent their to be a top 8 midfield. Add one more in an under and we are pushing up higher once we get a few more games into them.
Our list would be a lot different if we went for someone other than Myers and had kept Lovett.
Need to make finals next year with the above midfield and hope that they all come on and we get lucky. There's no other way. Knights has put us in a hole. Man we could do with Skipworth's leadership right now. :rolleyes:
Agree, just don't see us getting anything for those C & D graders. Maybe the Gold Coast situation could play into our hands. If they get desperate for some seasoned AFL footballers, NLM or Dyson could potentially fit the bill.
And yes, Friday Knight would have played out much differently had the inspirational Skippy been there to point and shout and generally pretend he new what he was doing. God I miss him.
kelvin_sheedy
9 Aug 2010, 12:27
Yeah, I probably didn't explain myself too well. I don't think we can get rid of any of our top 10 players to try and get really good picks.
It's too risky and dangerous and I think our top 10 will get better in a better side.
I reckon we could get picks in the 30's for one or two of those guys. There'd be a team willing to give something up. There always is.
For me two players are absolutely dead wood - Prismall and Williams. Highly paid mercenaries who should be cut. Package both up to GC for a pick in the 30's.
The Williams deal makes me sick in the guts watching kids like Fyfe and Bastinac run around.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 12:29
I reckon we could get picks in the 30's for one or two of those guys. There'd be a team willing to give something up. There always is.
.
If we ended up with a position like mid-trade week last year - had 10, 16, 26, 33 & 943 or whatever; I think we'd be pretty happy.
The Williams deal makes me sick in the guts watching kids like Fyfe and Bastinac run around.
but we then lose colyer, who IMO has been extremely impressive, and has big upside once he gets his tank up.
if we took basintac at 16, we would have gone the tall (Carlisle) next for sure.
Thus far, that trade hasnt look all that bad even with Williams doing nothing.
Overall, im not as pessimistic about the list as many seem to be.
It just isnt ready yet, I struggle to find a club with as good KP stock as we have, but they are 30-40 games away.
The midfield youth as a lot of upside but will take time. We need to draft for some more. There is no rush, as we will never seriously push up until we get the 50-100 games, and at least 2 more years of pre-seasons into the young keys.
We have plenty of 'cream' players who you will find will suddenly arrive once the cake is baked.
Just look at the list, and the teams we are putting on the park. They simply are not ready to be finals sides right now. Patience is required. Still, bad isnt the word I would sum up our season, it has been inconsistant. big difference there.
I am not as sure about the coaching panel, but that is another story.
kelvin_sheedy
9 Aug 2010, 12:44
but we then lose colyer, who IMO has been extremely impressive, and has big upside once he gets his tank up.
if we took basintac at 16, we would have gone the tall (Carlisle) next for sure.
Thus far, that trade hasnt look all that bad even with Williams doing nothing.
I can't recall the ins and outs of the deal but surely we could have worked out a way where we kept 16, 24, 26.
Colyer looks like a really good player - a cross between Brent Harvey and Peter Bell. It might be saving Knights bacon on the Williams deal.
Yeah, probably right on this one - we got lucky.
We basically downgraded pick 16 to 24, PLUS upgraded 42 odd and Nash to 33odd and also recieved Williams.
If you look at it that the draft picks we lose from #16 was cancelled out by the upgrading of the 2nd part, we effectively traded Nash for M. Williams.
It really was a no-brainer to do.
And Im not writing off M. Williams do anything next year.
I think we should use the fringe older types to try to upgrade to as strong as we can in this draft, and attack the midfielders with the first 2.
The upside of where our list is at, is that as keys take longer there is still time to bring a whole host of midfielders together (which we are doing) who will peak at the same time (drafted later) than the keys who are developing now.
Id much rather be in this position, than having a strongish bunch of midfielders kind of being the carpet over a very suspect rest of the list, as bringing through the key stoppers and goal kickers is a much harder, and longer process.
Rookie Picks: David Meli - Our international Rookie is due to be recruited this year. We will surely give him a go, and will let him have his time serving an apprenticeship at Bendigo in coming years.
Rookie Pick # 2: James Webster - NSW Scholarship kid who has been ok without being outstanding at struggling GWS (TAC Cup side). His attack on the ball is good whilst his skills do let him down at times, he is very good in close. Would love to see him given a chance at Essendon.
Rookie Pick # 3: Best available. Any unidentified talent out there, get it. If we do last to this long, this is what we should do..
With regards to the NSW/International rookie list picks. I have been told that as many as 3 of these players can be rookied without taking up a regular rookie list place. So the likes of Meli/Webster/Cole can be taken if deemed worthy, and we can still use our rookie places to stick with our current mature agers, or find ourselves some new mature agers.
Our list was in reasonable shape with Lovett and McPhee. We lost both for zero.
All we needed is another quality mid and another quality utility. Now that we've lost them we have to basically find 4 quality players.
We need to get lucky and have either David Myers come from the clouds and become a good player or trade in a bonafide mid.
Here's what we need to do:
Trade Prismall - he still has some currency.
Trade M. Williams - too expensive and we have younger options who need game time.
Welsh - tell him his contract next year is his last and he'll have to do something magical to get another one. Could be trade value to Sheeds GWS.
Put NLM, Dyson, Lonergan on the trade table and see what we can get. They might survive if we get rid of the first 3. We still need some experience around, season is long, injuries and they can be good players in a better side.
Defensive personal - I'm not too worried. You could have the AA side playing for us and they'll still cop 100 points regularly with our game plan. We need to find a post McVeigh lock down defender. Slattery should be able to do the job in a reasonable side.
Dempsey will prosper when the team stops leaking like a sieve. I reckon we could go into games next year with a back six of Fletcher, Hurley, Hooker, Pears, McVeigh, Dempsey.
Agree with pretty much all of that and quoting this post as it seems to be the post the converstaion is based around.
The only issue I see is with Demsey in the back 6. I like him but think he could be used elsewhere more effectively. If he is going to play in defense next year and he has not tightened up on his oppenent I dont want him in the team TBH.
Bugs the hell out of me seeing Dempsey 30m away from his opponent every game while the ball glides in for an uncontested mark (or contested mark if another defender runs over to cover his opponent).
Sounds like Im harsh on him but I do like him but its he either has to tighten up a bit, move from the defense or get out of the team.
I think when we reveiw list at end of 2011 we could put the players into groups
a) Laycock, Quinn, Still, J.Williams - little or no chance of staying
b) Atkinson, H.Slat, McVeigh, Houli, Neagle (could get delisted/traded)
c) Welsh, Dyson, Prismall, NLM - are on contract and probably safe but REALLY need to lift!
d) Lonergan, Jetta, Reimers, Myers should be safe - have youth on their side but would also have some currency
e) Stanton, Davey - both out of contract - both have currency....who knows...???
everyone else pretty safe you'd think - but you never know come trade time...
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 14:15
What the heck has Still done wrong? You're joking if you think they'd de-list (effectively) a first year tall. 2011 he'll be effectively second year and basically safe.
yeah - might be being a little harsh on the big fella - dont think hes done anything worng but certainly hasnt stood out and a few others are ahead of him. Just my opinion.
Ludwig van Bertstare
9 Aug 2010, 14:23
Neagle has yet to prove himself and he's been on the list for five years, battling injuries for the first 2-3.
(Michael) Still deserves a shot.
I would like to have 3 picks in the ND, plus 1 pick to upgrade Howlett to the main list. This means we require 3 players to come off our list, plus Hille upgraded to the veteran's list (assuming Fletcher plays on).
I think we'll most likely finish 13th giving us picks 10, 30, 47, 64 (assuming WCE don't win another game, which I'm sure they'll make sure of). I would like us to use trade week to upgrade our 2nd and/or 3rd pick rather than chase players, so we have something like 10,18,47,64 or 10,30,34,64 or (of course) better if possible. I would enable that from the following:
Delist: Laycock (is a given)
Trade/delist: Lonergan, Still
Further tradebait: Dyson, Atkinson, Daniher, Houli, Jetta, Monfries, Myers, Reimers, Winderlich
If 3 haven't come off our list via Laycock + GC poach + trade week, delist from the "trade/delist" in order.
National draft:
Pick 1 (10): Best available mid
Pick 2 (late 1st round?): Best available mid
Pick 3 (early 2nd round?): Small/Med defender
Pick 4: Ben Howlett
** Need to emphasis foot skills with all 3 picks, and at least 1 of our mids has to be a hard-bodied inside mid
Retain on rookie list: Bock (3rd year), Silverlock (2nd year), Marigliani (2nd year)
Remove: Crameri, J. Williams, Quinn
Rookie draft:
Pick 1: Mature-aged inside mid
Pick 2: Mature-aged ruckman
NSW/International Scholarship picks: Meli & Webster (not Cole, that surname makes me shiver)
Players (if remaining on the list) who should be given only 1 more year to truly stand up: Neagle, Houli, Myers, Jetta & Daniher. Also, should be Welsh's last year on our list.
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 14:29
Why anyone would want to chop Lonergan at the moment is beyond me, too. You people constantly baffle me.
Why anyone would want to chop Lonergan at the moment is beyond me, too. You people constantly baffle me.
He's playing the best footy in his career, love the way he goes about it, but frankly it's not footy that is going to take us anywhere, and I don't see him getting much better.
My personal preference would be to chop only Laycock, and free up 2 places via trade week, meaning Lonergan most likely stays. But if that doesn't happen he's the most expendable of the players coming out of contract in my view. If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure there's next to zero chance MK will delist him.
We basically downgraded pick 16 to 24, PLUS upgraded 42 odd and Nash to 33odd and also recieved Williams.
If you look at it that the draft picks we lose from #16 was cancelled out by the upgrading of the 2nd part, we effectively traded Nash for M. Williams.
It really was a no-brainer to do.
And Im not writing off M. Williams do anything next year.
Very good summary of it.
I want to keep Williams at least for next season. If he does a repeat cut but for now keep. Unless of course we get a good offer. (unlikely)
We still need 3 draft picks yeah? That's all I really want unless we can get another pick in the 20-40's. (back to williams)
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 14:42
As you say - best form of his career. I'd normally use that as an argument in favour of a guy, but whatever.
We've got 2 guys who've done anything as inside mids, and a *possible* in Myers. Why would you chop 1 of them, instead of one of our surplus of wingmen (Houli, Atko, Colyer) ?
As you say - best form of his career. I'd normally use that as an argument in favour of a guy, but whatever.
We've got 2 guys who've done anything as inside mids, and a *possible* in Myers. Why would you chop 1 of them, instead of one of our surplus of wingmen (Houli, Atko, Colyer) ?
As I said, his footy isn't going to take us anywhere. It may be his best, but his best isn't good enough IMO. The only argument for keeping him as far as I can see, is if you think he's got a fair bit more improvement in him. If so fair enough, but I don't.
BTW I think Howlett has already shown more inside than Sammy, and Melksham will be developed to play inside I'm sure.
The next on my list would have been Dyson (but again I think a trade for him could be made), would you find that acceptable?
Slattery_20
9 Aug 2010, 15:01
I think we've too many of a certain type - that being "outside/winger who doesn't rock up every 2nd week & shanks a few too many kicks".
Hence - one of Atko, Houli, Dyson.
Dyson's got more in the bank but done the least this year; Atko possibly most upside but oldest; Houli is the most "ELITEST TALENT!!(! elite disposal!!#" and the most "destroyed by the selection committee", ie has the most to prove to the coaches.
yodellinhank
9 Aug 2010, 16:28
I think we've too many of a certain type - that being "outside/winger who doesn't rock up every 2nd week & shanks a few too many kicks".
Hence - one of Atko, Houli, Dyson.
Dyson's got more in the bank but done the least this year; Atko possibly most upside but oldest; Houli is the most "ELITEST TALENT!!(! elite disposal!!#" and the most "destroyed by the selection committee", ie has the most to prove to the coaches.
Any chance Dyson may still be worth something to Freo? Or are we highly unlikely to trade with those guys for a while?
The Fact
9 Aug 2010, 17:32
summary:
"we're too soft. Trade all our harder blokes".
"forwards aren't settled. trade one of them"
Love it.
Good call had to be made call:D
HFF well done for a fantastic review.I agree pretty much with it all but the question that worries me is:How long does the EFC wait to delist a player at seasons end? Meaning..Should we wait for the Suns to approach our player so we can get compo for him or do we just cleanout and hope for the best?
As the trading comes before the drafts, I would imagine the Suns list management team led by the reknowned Scott Clayton will be busy in this week.
I would put all of our, out of contract players up for trade to see if we can land them a job next year or try and upgrade a pick perhaps..
I still think that the GC will end up trading one or two of their first round picks.
They will need an experienced ruckman - probably get that later in the draft - but they need a mature aged ( probably 2 ) key Back/Forward. They may get Bock but will need another one. Maybe EFC can get involved in a 3 or way trade.
For EFC
Want 4 picks
1) Hope to get a gun midfielder
2) Hope to get a mature age - like Howlett
3) defender with good disposal
4) best available
Clearly no idea who the recruiting guy really is. Disappointing that you use that to launch into an attack on blokes. Doubly disappointing now that Keane's been there 2 or 3 drafts. Triply disappointing that you're a mod, and couldn't bother checking your facts. It should be a mod's job to try and keep threads along fairly factually accurate lines, not actively propagate errors.
FWIW This is clearly not the year to make massive wholesale list changes.
Oh and they're not going to delist Myers.
FWIW some of you lot would have delisted 3 of our last 4 captains, going by the standards set.
Slattery_20
Have I pissed you off or am I just the latest target in your string of stirring attacks on a single poster?
In regards to Adrian Dodoro, he is still living off late round gems rather than first round guns to make his name..
Have a look at this list for my response: (Dodoro appointed in 1998)
1999: (traded like crazy) Hille at 40 was only notable recruit.
2000: James Davies (17), Ted Richards (27)
2001: Shane Harvey (18), Joel Reynolds (31)
2002: Jason Laycock (10), Jason Winderlich (11)
2003: Keplar Bradley (6), Brent Stanton (13)
2004: Angus Monfries (14), Andrew Lee (30)
2005: Patrick Ryder (7), Courtenay Dempsey (19) *
2006: Scott Gumbleton (2), Leroy Jetta (18), Tom Hislop (20)
2007: David Myers (6), Tayte Pears (23)
Before you start raving about how good the 2005 draft pick was, why the hell did HE, along with Sheedy draft/trade/recruit in guys (in no particular order), Scott Camporeale, Chris Heffernan, Richard Cole.
Add to that, in our recent dire years we have added in trades such as Jarrod Atkinson, Mal Michael, Steve Allessio..
Really goes to show why I do not rate him in his recent years at the EFC..
How about we pick some stand out guys rather than someone who 'could be a top line player', and some players that can kick and have good skills.
Chris Pelchen (TAC Future Stars - Sunday afternoon) mentioned: "our big focis was on kicking skills, we needed to recruit in guys that could use it (the pill)", they went on to win the flag..
I realise they are not going to delist Myers, I do not think he will make it, but he is a first round draft pick and they do not grow on trees so wil give him every opportuinty to 'make it' before we finally rid us (The Essendon Football Club) of the deadwood that is...
To top this off Slattery_20
What would you do to our list?
You honestly think teams are going to come crying for a Ricky Dyson, or an Andrew Welsh?
No, people around here think that our trash is someone else's treasure.
How about you put something into this 'debate' as you call it and make some worthwhile points rather than attack a bloke who is sick of mediocrity and wants something done the **** about it.
Ludwig van Bertstare
9 Aug 2010, 21:00
Hille was our first pick in the '99 draft due to the salary cap penalty.
Wow, that makes a lot of sense.
Quite a few people in this thread have said they'd delist Atkinson, and not ONE has given any reason at all as far as I could see.
Atkinson looked decent when he played. He created run for us and held his own down back. Has the occasional brain-fade, but then, so does everybody else in our team.
He seems to get crucified around here, but for no good reason.
The one thing that people constantly overlook when it comes to Atkinson is how well he slots into our structure. He may not ever be a world-beater, but you don't need 18 world-beaters out there. You need 18 players that work together well, and do the team things. Atkinson, in the few games he played earlier in the year, did exactly that for the most part.
Yet people want to delist him. :confused: :thumbsd:
The fact that he is out of contract, is 25, is holding players one our list back (Dempsey, Houli, T.Slattery), the fact that people EXPECT clubs to trade for our trash when in fact, a lot less trades will be done this year than anticipated IMO.
Retiring Fletch would be the hardest decision to make and I can see the pros and cons of doing so. He could be there for another 4 years the way he's playing especially if he has his mandatory 4-5 game stint on the sidelines for having his gangly arms or legs getting him in trouble. The club needs that experience on field otherwise we'll go backwards again next year. This goes for Spike and Welsh as well they both love the club but form just doesn't excite you when they come back into the side. Spike has been a better performer in the latter half of the season than what welsh is. There are too few leaders at the club right now and only one or two future leaders in Melksham and Hurley.
We need a couple of real mongrel players ala Wallis, Wellman, Soloman, Barnyard. It's what lacks right now with Hille being the only real hard body out there. Jobe's not that sort of player but by god he's a good capt. Originally players like lonergan, hocking and reimers looked to be able to fill those roles of in and under tough nuts of the side but have since been played out of position and not in the guts.
The Dempsey Debarcle. He lives and breaths down hill skiing. Great to watch when the other 5 backmen are covering his arse but when they have their hands full he is exposed for every tom dick and harry to see. Play him as a defensive forward where he is not as accountable to allow him to learn his defensive game under less pressure. Then move him back if need be.
The forward line structure hasn't been settled all year. 2 big holes to fill in Lloyd and Lucas was bigger than expected. Willo was recruited in an attempt to fill one of those holes. The Hurley experiment down forward just didn't work and for now he's a better backman that can go forward in a pinch. It's scarey to think that Davey (22 goals) is the leading goal kicker for the club this season. Gumbleton got through a season and went missing on some occassions but showed the potential that everyone had hoped he would. Neagle just doesn't seem fit or upto the level. Great hands but you wouldn't put your house on him to kick straight. Hardingham was the suprise packet and adds that spark up forward. Monfires hasn't improved from last year it's just more of the same which is a pity as I think he's a barometer for the team.
The club has persisted with Dyson, NLM, lonergan and Slattery for too long. Surely they have some weight on the trade table even if they act as a sweetner to gain a higher draft pick I'd take it.
Houli, Myers, Jetta and Prismall are the four players that need to start showing they are part of the solution and not the cause of the problem. All have downfalls from being indecisive to injury to just going missing in games that matter. Have to be able to stick with them and just not drop them. Houli strung 3 games together and has played one ordinary game from those three. Pris needs to be played on the wing and jetta is a forward pocket player and shouldn't be seen up the ground he's just too small. Myers hasn't been given the chance to string games together at senior level. He's shown glimpse's of brilliance and as a high draft pick needs to be given time at senior level to develop not in one game out the next.
The assistant coaching staff needs a shake up. Campo is the midfield coach and it's just not working. If Simon Black retires and is looking for a coaching gig the club would be stupid not chasing him. With Madden as the ruck coach we've seen the high's that Ryder can reach and the improvement in Belly. Loathed to say it but as long as Knights is at the club Lloyd won't be back. He's ideal as a forward coach and could address some serious goal kicking issues at the club.
The trade period and off season appointments will be an indication as to where the club is going. Put players with niggles in for surgery now so they are ready for a full preseason and play the rookies. Marigliani would be good to see on the big stage as would Carlisle.
Trade: NLM, Lonergan, Slattery, Jetta, Neagle.
Well said Nasty Penguin
Could not argue with most of those points
:thumbsu:
yodellinhank
9 Aug 2010, 21:07
Slattery_20
Have I pissed you off or am I just the latest target in your string of stirring attacks on a single poster?
In regards to Adrian Dodoro, he is still living off late round gems rather than first round guns to make his name..
Have a look at this list for my response: (Dodoro appointed in 1998)
1999: (traded like crazy) Hille at 40 was only notable recruit.
2000: James Davies (17), Ted Richards (27)
2001: Shane Harvey (18), Joel Reynolds (31)
2002: Jason Laycock (10), Jason Winderlich (11)
2003: Keplar Bradley (6), Brent Stanton (13)
2004: Angus Monfries (14), Andrew Lee (30)
2005: Patrick Ryder (7), Courtenay Dempsey (19) *
2006: Scott Gumbleton (2), Leroy Jetta (18), Tom Hislop (20)
2007: David Myers (6), Tayte Pears (23)
Before you start raving about how good the 2005 draft pick was, why the hell did HE, along with Sheedy draft/trade/recruit in guys (in no particular order), Scott Camporeale, Chris Heffernan, Richard Cole.
Add to that, in our recent dire years we have added in trades such as Jarrod Atkinson, Mal Michael, Steve Allessio..
Really goes to show why I do not rate him in his recent years at the EFC..
How about we pick some stand out guys rather than someone who 'could be a top line player', and some players that can kick and have good skills.
Chris Pelchen (TAC Future Stars - Sunday afternoon) mentioned: "our big focis was on kicking skills, we needed to recruit in guys that could use it (the pill)", they went on to win the flag..
I realise they are not going to delist Myers, I do not think he will make it, but he is a first round draft pick and they do not grow on trees so wil give him every opportuinty to 'make it' before we finally rid us (The Essendon Football Club) of the deadwood that is...
To top this off Slattery_20
What would you do to our list?
You honestly think teams are going to come crying for a Ricky Dyson, or an Andrew Welsh?
No, people around here think that our trash is someone else's treasure.
How about you put something into this 'debate' as you call it and make some worthwhile points rather than attack a bloke who is sick of mediocrity and wants something done the **** about it.
I have debated at length on many a thread about what i believe to be a commonly held misconception that Campo, Michael etc where mistakes.
I'll say the same thing I always say, take a look at the pick numbers and the talent available at the time.
It seems the view that draft picks are so valuable, and then the players we draft with them aren't. People love to believe there is/was some gem out there, but you have to be realistic.
I totally agree with your trash for treasure point. This is the way footy supporters think though. They never want to give up something, and always throw up names and then follow up with "or delist him".
The only reason I raise Dyson, however, is because there was interest from Freo in the not so distant past, and I wonder if he may actually still carry currency with them? Given their current situation with good young kids, they might be happy to bring in ready made, errm, talent?:o
Ben the Gooner
9 Aug 2010, 21:08
The fact that he is out of contract, is 25, is holding players one our list back (Dempsey, Houli, T.Slattery), the fact that people EXPECT clubs to trade for our trash when in fact, a lot less trades will be done this year than anticipated IMO.
I'd argue the opposite.
Last year, there were a lot of trades, because the draft was poorly rated, and teams didn't fancy it. Conversely, in 2008, the superdraft, very little trading went on.
No one fancies their picks this year, so they'll be given up readily IMO.
Duckworth
9 Aug 2010, 21:10
Well said Nasty Penguin
Could not argue with most of those points
:thumbsu:
Yeah, although I have no problems with Fletch taking up a spot on the veterans list until he sees fit to retire.
With regards to the NSW/International rookie list picks. I have been told that as many as 3 of these players can be rookied without taking up a regular rookie list place. So the likes of Meli/Webster/Cole can be taken if deemed worthy, and we can still use our rookie places to stick with our current mature agers, or find ourselves some new mature agers.
Midfielders outside the list?
AWESOME!!! :D
Will probably be more trading than last year - Should be a combination of player for players and players for picks - Maybe even three or 4 way trades.
I definitely want a minumum of four or five picks
As HFF mentioned we have had mixed success with first or second round picks and relatively greater success with later picks under the reign of Dodoro/Keane.
Better to be safe and have extra picks.
I'd argue the opposite.
Last year, there were a lot of trades, because the draft was poorly rated, and teams didn't fancy it. Conversely, in 2008, the superdraft, very little trading went on.
No one fancies their picks this year, so they'll be given up readily IMO.
On the other hand because picks are so average they may be unwilling to part with their highest pick.
Circumstances play a huge part though. Freo would think they have enough youth and need some list bolstering, similar with Melbourne? Port may hold onto their picks for dear life.
BomberTime
9 Aug 2010, 22:07
I agree with many of your delistings HFF, from what i saw of Silverlock before his injury i hope he can develop into that hard nosed inside mid we need next year after he recovers. He looks a beauty.
I agree with many of your delistings HFF, from what i saw of Silverlock before his injury i hope he can develop into that hard nosed inside mid we need next year after he recovers. He looks a beauty.
Silverlock is a must to be placed on the primary list or we could lose him to another club.
Towno78
10 Aug 2010, 13:44
Silverlock is a must to be placed on the primary list or we could lose him to another club.
You keep saying this. I hardly think a first-year rookie listed player with a broken leg who hasn't played a single AFL game for one of the worst performed AFL clubs, but has shown some good signs in the VFL has any similarities to Mumford... A ruckman who played many AFL games over 2 seasons for the best team in the competition, playing in a position with a league wide deficiency of AFL quality players.
He'll stay on the rookie list, no danger there. Besides the only way we lose him is if he decides he doesn't want to stay on the rookie list, and takes his chances in the draft. Which I wouldn't have thought would be likely given his circumstances once again.
Slattery_20
10 Aug 2010, 14:06
Before you start raving about how good the 2005 draft pick was, why the hell did HE, along with Sheedy draft/trade/recruit in guys (in no particular order), Scott Camporeale, Chris Heffernan, Richard Cole.
Add to that, in our recent dire years we have added in trades such as Jarrod Atkinson, Mal Michael, Steve Allessio..
You really don't have much idea of what I wrote, do you?
Perhaps, what they should do, is head-hunt a fairly successful recruiter from another club and move Dodoro sideways a bit, away from recruiting, into more of a general management role ? I think that'd be good.
Dodoro was never going to out-vote Sheedy at the trade table. You can probably tell who I'm blaming for all the "jet midfielder" years.
Not sure why you list any of Atkinson, Michael or Alessio as trades? Michael came from another club at least, the other two have played their entire careers at EFC. But near enough's good enough.
Chris Pelchen (TAC Future Stars - Sunday afternoon) mentioned: "our big focis was on kicking skills, we needed to recruit in guys that could use it (the pill)", they went on to win the flag..
And most of their best players (he didn't do the 01 nor the Buddy draft) were recruited by the bloke around before him (Buckenara) or, Dew's case, by Clarko going over his head.
Again, little conception of who did what & when, but boy are you angry about it!
Pelchen can rightfully claim Cyril & I think Ellis, along with every one of their failures since.
To top this off Slattery_20
What would you do to our list?
You honestly think teams are going to come crying for a Ricky Dyson, or an Andrew Welsh?
No, people around here think that our trash is someone else's treasure.
Freo had a big sniff at Dyson last off-season. Oh but they're not interested...
How about you put something into this 'debate' as you call it and make some worthwhile points rather than attack a bloke who is sick of mediocrity and wants something done the **** about it.
Yep, exactly what I said was "we need more mediocrity". ;)
I think we need a hell of a lot more hard players, a hell of a lot less soft-outside-winger-flankers, and a hell of a lot more accountability from front to back.
Too soft. Pure and simple.
Makes me angry seeing the "XXX is being played out of position" shit like you actually expect one poor backman to defend against 2 opposition players streaming forward + their own man.
I don't know where that starts & where it stops, who's fault it is, and so on, but I just get pissed off when you consistently get stuff wrong and don't listen to people trying to set you straight.
Slattery_20
We have the worst midfield in the comp, right?
We continually get smashed around here? we are slow, indecisive, we lack skill in the middle with no outstanding ball users in our 'core' group of players.
If I was in charge of recruiting and trading, some big changes would well and truly be made to our list.
We scraped into the finals last year when any other year would of spelled a finish of 10th, whilst this year we have arguably gone further backwards than we were at the end of 2008.
In no particular order, I would be reviewing Jarrod Atkinson, Stuart Crameri, Darcy Daniher, Courtenay Dempsey, Ricky Dyson, Leroy Jetta, Marcus Marigliani, David Myers, Jay Neagle, Brent Prismal, Michael Quinn, Michael Still, Andrew Welsh, John Williams and Jason Winderlich.
I would then see what they are going to offer the club in the future, and also see what they can offer other clubs now (Trade Value).
Players like Welsh, NLM, Atkinson, Laycock (is gone anyways you would imagine), H.Slattery, who continually put up mediocre performances.
I would love to see some tough calls made on some certain players, but after much thinking, will find it hard to see Essendon moving on such players as Leroy Jetta, David Myers even Bachar Houli and Sam Lonergan have shown a little bit in the past month.
I would love to see a high turnover of this list as I feel it is what is needed, started last year, but the wrong players I feel were not required to go..
This draft runs deep, according to many 'in the know', whilst there are many, many more Barlow's and Podsiadly's out there that every AFL club is probably looking at more than ever.
What do we need now, skillful types, ones who are good in tight but are also able to play outside, skills should be on the top of the list.
Add to that some different game plans as well, to change it up from the one that costs us to many goals each week if things turn pear shaped.
Would love to see us go after a mature aged ruckmen from a state league.
One name that has come across my head a little bit in recent weeks is Port Melbourne tall Callum Sinclair.
Sinclair is a 200cm CHF/Ruckmen who is averaging 2 goals a game in the strong and powerful Port Melbourne line up, not bad for a kid who is yet to turn 21.
Could be a very suitable pick up for Essendon as a mature aged ruckmen cum forward.
Another I would look at very closesly is former St.Kilda big man, Michael Rix, only for back up, but he is dominating in the WAFL these days, only as a depth player he could be handy as Tom Bellchambers may not be just quite there yet? so a mature # 3 ruckmen would be more suitable than a mature aged # 4 ruckmen (like Sinclair).
Sorry, a little off track, any names people would like to throw up as replacements for Laycock (who is gone you would imagine), Houli (who would almost certainly want more opportunities elsewhere) and even someone like Jetta (who is out of contract and may want to go home)?
Slattery_20
10 Aug 2010, 15:59
I'm aware we're not good.
I just disagree that our failings are in outside users of it. As we saw last year, Lovett - (AFL prospectus had us with 3 of the top 10 kicks in the league in 09, when weighted by risk/reward)- was able to spark us to 3 or 4 wins, but when the going got tough, the Bombers got found wanting at the clinches.
It's getting enough of the bloody thing (or rather, stopping the other lot from doing so) that's the real struggle, if you ask me.
Defensively-minded midfielders & guys who win their own footy are the things I'd set as priorities 1 and 2 at the moment.
Flankers who can run forward of the contest are dime a dozen.
I'm aware we're not good.
I just disagree that our failings are in outside users of it. As we saw last year, Lovett - (AFL prospectus had us with 3 of the top 10 kicks in the league in 09, when weighted by risk/reward)- was able to spark us to 3 or 4 wins, but when the going got tough, the Bombers got found wanting at the clinches.
It's getting enough of the bloody thing (or rather, stopping the other lot from doing so) that's the real struggle, if you ask me.
Defensively-minded midfielders & guys who win their own footy are the things I'd set as priorities 1 and 2 at the moment.
Flankers who can run forward of the contest are dime a dozen.
And you want Dempsey in the middle/wing?
I just want skilful players who work both ways..
If only we had another 3 - 4 Zaharakis'
You keep saying this. I hardly think a first-year rookie listed player with a broken leg who hasn't played a single AFL game for one of the worst performed AFL clubs, but has shown some good signs in the VFL has any similarities to Mumford... A ruckman who played many AFL games over 2 seasons for the best team in the competition, playing in a position with a league wide deficiency of AFL quality players.
He'll stay on the rookie list, no danger there. Besides the only way we lose him is if he decides he doesn't want to stay on the rookie list, and takes his chances in the draft. Which I wouldn't have thought would be likely given his circumstances once again.
You dont understand the new rules.
He doesnt have to enter the ND - Another club can trade him away from Essendon.
And you want Dempsey in the middle/wing?
I just want skilful players who work both ways..
If only we had another 3 - 4 Zaharakis'
And the 3 top Essendon players who were rated in the Top 10 for disposal efficiency were
Lovett - Gone
Dyson - Doesnt get it enough and dropped form this year
Dempsey - Must have been a statistical flaw
HFF
Keep on with the nuggets
' Dempsey needs to defend, not attack '
100% correct and to think we need more inside midfielders.
One or two inside midfielders are definitely needed but they need to be supported by defenders who actually know something about defending.
Towno78
10 Aug 2010, 20:57
You dont understand the new rules.
He doesnt have to enter the ND - Another club can trade him away from Essendon.
My understanding is fine.
Clubs can't just trade him away from us beyond our control. We have to agree to a trade for it to happen.
My understanding is fine.
Clubs can't just trade him away from us beyond our control. We have to agree to a trade for it to happen.
But another club may have the upper hand - spots on lists, dollars etc.
And clubs have guys who sole job is to analyse the lists of other clubs.
Slattery_20
11 Aug 2010, 07:43
And you want Dempsey in the middle/wing?
No. Never have I said that, never intimated that, in fact I've argued against it a couple of times.
I'd say you couldn't be much further wrong on that.
Towno78
11 Aug 2010, 08:52
But another club may have the upper hand - spots on lists, dollars etc.
And clubs have guys who sole job is to analyse the lists of other clubs.
Yes, that's great and all, but to my actual point, I don't see where the great demand for Silverlock's services is coming from. The way you're speaking, its as though he streaked the field in the JJ Liston or something.
lemon chicken
11 Aug 2010, 08:55
Michael Rix??? Bloke was an absolute spud and would be 30 at the start of next year. These type of players are playing state leagues for a very good reason.
Michael Rix??? Bloke was an absolute spud and would be 30 at the start of next year. These type of players are playing state leagues for a very good reason.
Ben Howlett says hi :D
Sam Mitchell says hi :D
Harry Taylor also pops his head in and says hi :D
If they are good enough they will get a chance..
As for Michael Rix, he (along with Northern Bullant Orren Stephenson) are the two most dominant big men in the state competitions.
Some clubs are crying out for a bck up ruckmen, maybe for depth, but they would love one of them..
And the 3 top Essendon players who were rated in the Top 10 for disposal efficiency were
Lovett - Gone
Dyson - Doesnt get it enough and dropped form this year
Dempsey - Must have been a statistical flaw
HFF
Keep on with the nuggets
' Dempsey needs to defend, not attack '
100% correct and to think we need more inside midfielders.
One or two inside midfielders are definitely needed but they need to be supported by defenders who actually know something about defending.
I think we have got some very good inside midfielders too Yaco.
When we beat St.Kilda, we had Jobe Watson, Ben Howlett and Sam Lonergan as our starting 3 mids, last week was the same except we had Winderlich in there instead of Lonergan..
Are we sure it is not the cream that is letting us down and not the cake?
I would think that Watson, Lonergan, Howlett, Melksham (when he has played on ball) have all won a fair bit of the ball from the clearances..
Just need to kicking skills to kick the ball inside 50 to our leading forwards.