View Full Version : Is Lee the best bowler?
Rough_Edges
9 Jul 2003, 19:11
What do you reckon?
No. Brett Lee is a one-dimensional show-pony who couldn't bowl a consistent line and length to save his life.
Sure he looks menacing in full flight. But when the chips are down, is he the bowler you'd turn to in order to break a lengthy partnership? Perhaps as a last resort. He's more the bowler Steve Waugh turns to when he wants to shake up the opposition tail enders.
Despite his dream start to Test cricket, Brett Lee's average has just about blown out to 30. The very definition of bowler hackdome.
It's an insult to even compare him to great bowlers like McGrath, Warne and Gillespie; let alone suggest he is better.
Test cricket's most overrated player? His name is Brett Lee.
Is he the best bowler in what?
In the world?
In Australia?
In NSW?
I reckon he's proabably the best bowler in the Lee family that's for sure,but then his brother wasn't really much cop.
A bit harsh there DaveW.
Lee is not Australia's best bowler, but he is an automatic selection in both Test matches and ODI's. He was fantastic in the World Cup and VB Series, and was pretty good in the West Indies and in the Ashes. He seems to bowl better (and faster) in ODI's, and destroyed Sri Lanka in the semi final.
he's quite good.. but not the best.
McGrath has been the best for quiet some time.
I'm a big fan of Gilsespie. I just wonder how good he could have been if not for all the injuries.
I do think Lee is bowling a lot better now though and should go up a notch this summer. He is fast but needs to get his length right. Once he gets a good length he should be pretty hard to score off. I doubt he will ever bowl a good line. It's not that easy when your letting them go at around and above 155 kms per hour.
To be fair to Lee when you have 2 miserly bowlers like McGrath & Warne plus Gillespie who's also got good control you don't really need more of the same, you want something a bit different & that's what he is a shock bowler not a stock bowler.
He's there to break partneships especially when the pitch is flat & the ball's old but you also know that at time's when he gets it right on a fast track that he can blow the top order away with the new ball as well.
wagstaff
10 Jul 2003, 20:47
Originally posted by lamby29
A bit harsh there DaveW.
Lee is not Australia's best bowler, but he is an automatic selection in both Test matches and ODI's.
In his last 26 Tests Lee has taken 77 wickets at an average of 36.85 - not only isn't he the best Test bowler in the world but he isn't even one of the better Test bowlers in the world.
As to why he keeps getting selected, I think its partly to do with marketing appeal, the fact that he's under 30 and gives a youthful edge to an elderly lineup and partly with Steve Waugh's bias towards him and his desire for an all-out paceman to shake up the opposition at certain occasions.
Originally posted by wagstaff
his desire for an all-out paceman to shake up the opposition at certain occasions.
Surely that's what it is.
What would be the point in picking Bichel or Noffke or any of the others when you've got Gillespie & McGrath, they can't do anything that those 2 can't, Lee just gives you something different & that variety to cover almost any eventuality is what gives the Aussie attack it's biggest strength.
wagstaff
10 Jul 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by DIPPER
Surely that's what it is.
What would be the point in picking Bichel or Noffke or any of the others when you've got Gillespie & McGrath, they can't do anything that those 2 can't, Lee just gives you something different & that variety to cover almost any eventuality is what gives the Aussie attack it's biggest strength.
Lee's "fearsome" pace is an overrated aspect of his game. He's a skidding type bowler who rarely gets the type of steepling bounce required to intimidate quality batsman. The only batsmen Lee has seriously intimidated over the years are tailenders like Nantie Hayward.
To say that the variety Lee offers the Australian attack is its biggest strength is an absurdity. More often then not, the bowling attack while Lee has been there have comprised of two of Australia's greatest ever bowlers in McGrath and Warne, as well as a top-notch paceman in Gillespie. Lee is far inferior to those three, especially after his back injury, and is an indulgence the side gets away with. It was notable how much less effective the Australian bowling attack was in the West Indies with McGrath and Warne missing most of the time and Lee opening the attack.
Put it this way, if Lee were Australia's leading paceman, they wouldn't be the Number 1 Test nation in the world.
cjwalkley
11 Jul 2003, 16:51
If Brett Lee had of been born in Tasmania he would not have played a test!
Gawd...he's not even the best of the chuckers! Murali tops that group. Just ahead of Shoaib Aktar - based on his batting.
Yes he is good - but not great and not even an automatic inclusion in the Aussie side.
Aussie Pace bowlers:
1 McGrath (easy)
2 Gillespie (just)
3 Lee
I'd rate Warne ahead of both Dizzy & Bing.
Murali is better than Lee also.
So no he's not the best, except in the NSW category, just ahead of McGill & Bracken.
lamby29
11 Jul 2003, 18:51
Originally posted by wagstaff
In his last 26 Tests Lee has taken 77 wickets at an average of 36.85 - not only isn't he the best Test bowler in the world but he isn't even one of the better Test bowlers in the world.
As to why he keeps getting selected, I think its partly to do with marketing appeal, the fact that he's under 30 and gives a youthful edge to an elderly lineup and partly with Steve Waugh's bias towards him and his desire for an all-out paceman to shake up the opposition at certain occasions.
He is still an awesome ODI bowler.
Originally posted by wagstaff
More often then not, the bowling attack while Lee has been there have comprised of two of Australia's greatest ever bowlers in McGrath and Warne, as well as a top-notch paceman in Gillespie. Lee is far inferior to those three, especially after his back injury, and is an indulgence the side gets away with. It was notable how much less effective the Australian bowling attack was in the West Indies with McGrath and Warne missing most of the time and Lee opening the attack.
This is exactly my point though, the other 3 have been so good that you can get away with Lee's weaknesses to some degree.
I'm not too convinced by the quality of the Australian pace bowlers behind these 3, obviously you know more about what's out there than me but there seem no point in putting in a reasonably good quickish bowler when you have McGrath/Gillespie, you may as well go for somebody with searing pace who does offer something different.
You say that he doesn't have the steepling bounce to intimidate quality batsman & that he's a 'skidding' bowler but most of the really quick bowlers are of the skidding variety, Shaiob is the same, Larwood was as was Thompson & Marshall, they all still managed to get the ball up around the batsman's ears without too much trouble.
I seem to remember in one of the Ashes Tests last winter that a few of the England batsman didn't seem to be fancying it, it was probably at Perth but I can't really remember.
I agree that these extreme pace bowlers are rarely as effective as the more measured bowlers who have greater control & are often taller & extract nasty bounce, but they if you can fit one in it does give the captain another option.
Shaoib's the same, I don't think he's that great, he takes some brutal punishment at times & he suffers a lot of injury but even in innings where he takes some stick he can produce a spell that blows away a part of the batting order or even just one wicket that can give the other bowlers a chance to get stuck into a fresh batsman.
So while I agree that he is nowhere near the quality of McGrath/Gillespie & Warne I think he's the sensible choice to have in as the 4th guy, plus he bats pretty well also.
wagstaff
12 Jul 2003, 00:41
Originally posted by DIPPER
You say that he doesn't have the steepling bounce to intimidate quality batsman & that he's a 'skidding' bowler but most of the really quick bowlers are of the skidding variety, Shaiob is the same, Larwood was as was Thompson & Marshall, they all still managed to get the ball up around the batsman's ears without too much trouble.
I seem to remember in one of the Ashes Tests last winter that a few of the England batsman didn't seem to be fancying it, it was probably at Perth but I can't really remember.
I agree that these extreme pace bowlers are rarely as effective as the more measured bowlers who have greater control & are often taller & extract nasty bounce, but they if you can fit one in it does give the captain another option.
Shaoib's the same, I don't think he's that great, he takes some brutal punishment at times & he suffers a lot of injury but even in innings where he takes some stick he can produce a spell that blows away a part of the batting order or even just one wicket that can give the other bowlers a chance to get stuck into a fresh batsman.
The appropriate comparison out of those bowlers you mentioned was Shoaib - he would be vying with Lee for the most overrated bowler in Test cricket. Has pace to burn, but not much else.
And Lee's overall worth as a bowler can be properly measured by Shoaib's performances for Pakistan - Shoaib has a far weaker attack surrounding him and he isn't able to lead the attack on enough occasions. The same will happen with Lee when McGrath retires, Lee's shortcoming will be even further exposed.
To compare Lee with Marshall is a nonsense. Marshall had it all - was able to swing it both ways, move it off the seam both ways, had a devillish bouncer and always lifted when the opposition's key batsmen (e.g. Border) went in.
Lee doesn't move the ball off the pitch, doesn't have a menacing bouncer despite his pace and seems to lift when the tailenders come in and some easy wickets are on hand (which is helped by S. Waugh giving him lengthy spells when the tail is in). Lee can swing the ball - sometimes very impressively - but when his swing loses his way its boundaries galore for the opposition.
That Marshall's Test bowling average is almost 10 runs lower then Lee's is an accurate reflection of the quality of the two.
Nige_Bix
13 Jul 2003, 01:14
He is not in the class of McGrath and Gillespie but is probably our best bet as 3rd pace bowler- in a close tussle with Bichel.
Originally posted by wagstaff
To compare Lee with Marshall is a nonsense. Marshall had it all - was able to swing it both ways, move it off the seam both ways, had a devillish bouncer and always lifted when the opposition's key batsmen (e.g. Border) went in.
Come on man don't put words into my mouth, I made no comparison of Lee & Marshall interms of quality (in fact from what I've said it must be clear that I agree with you that Lee would struggle to lead the attack in the absence of McGrath) I was just responding to your comment that as a 'skidding type' of bowler Lee's bouncer wasn't up to much & that he didn't have the 'steepling bounce required to intimidate quality batsmen', I made the observation that there have been many skiddy fast bowlers who had a lethal bouncer but didn't possess 'steepling bounce', Marshall was one of these & in fact I've read many batsmen say that it was the very fact that his bouncer skidded through that got them in trouble, he rearranged Mike Gatting's face once but at 5'11" & with a skiddy action I bet it wasn't through 'steepling bounce'.
I don't think Lee is anywhere near Marshall in terms of class it's just that I believe you can still intimidate batsmen with a skiddy action you don't have to be 6'5" tall with a high arm.
That was my point & I think it was pretty clear.:D
Rough_Edges
13 Jul 2003, 17:50
What if I said Lee against Bichel, who would you take?
Destructive
17 Jul 2003, 22:04
If he can bowl on the wicket, he can be devastating.
Originally posted by GoSainters10
What if I said Lee against Bichel, who would you take? Bichel. At least you know he's giving his all.
autologic
20 Jul 2003, 11:25
Lee is definately not the best bowler yet.
However I believe he's going that way, in my opinion he's certainly better then Ahktar.
He's one of the best ODI bowlers going around at the moment and is pulling his test average down gradually. His test career started poorly but is back on track.
In terms of the Australian side, I rate him as not as good as McGrath, Warne of Gillespie but slightly better then Bichel.
The fact that hes stringing together matches (better then Gillespie can) also makes him a valuable player but definately not the best.