View Full Version : Robert Carlyle - Hitler
jacqui9
14 Jul 2003, 10:39
One of the most incredible performances I have seen by an actor in a long time.
In fact the whole show was briliant. Gave an easy to understand account of one of one of the most hated dictators of history.
Originally posted by jacqui9
Gave an easy to understand account
Which is why in parts, it's flawed.
(Not detracting away from Carlyles performance.)
NICK THE PIE MAN
14 Jul 2003, 11:39
Intruiging mini-series.
I already knew his past but it still amazes me how many times he came close to death before his eventual rise. The bastard should have been killed in WW1.
Carlyle is incredible.
Amazing that it is the same bloke that was dropping his dacks in 'The Full Monty.' :D
Steve76
14 Jul 2003, 12:35
Will qualify this by saying I missed the show - will check out part 2 tonight
But I suspect it will fall into the trap of most commercial netwroks documentaries of focussing on the individual/personality and downplay the other less "interesting" factors - e.g Germany post WWI, German history and circumstance.
Wicked Lester
14 Jul 2003, 12:50
The show could also be called "Begbie does Munchen"!
As a history buff I found it interesting, but strangely flawed.
It portrayed him as an instant psychopath, which to a degree is correct - but I think it failed I think was to explain the root cause of some of his prejudices in greater detail. For example his hatred of communism was due to his belief that communist insurgents were responsible for the collapse of the German military machine in WW1.
The portrayal of Rohm also was a little simplistic. Also in all the bio's I've read there has never been any implication that his Iron Cross was not completely and utterly deserved.
Sets are good though, the mood well captured and Carlyle makes a good Adolf.
Steve76
14 Jul 2003, 13:11
but I think it failed I think was to explain the root cause of some of his prejudices in greater detail. For example his hatred of communism was due to his belief that communist insurgents were responsible for the collapse of the German military machine in WW1
...and this belief was not just restricted to Hitler. He was pandering to a yearning audience.
I actually found myself thinking "Yeah, why should they have to pay for rebuilding the other countries..." Thankfully, Adolf then went troppo, saving me from having to take a good hard look at myself.
Says a lot about Carlyle's performance IMO.
Porthos
14 Jul 2003, 13:50
When you see that the title is Hitler: Rise Of Evil, you can be pretty sure that its not going to be historically correct, or even unbiased.
It was OK. I felt that the rush through his childhood was a bit too much of a timeline - decent storytelling took a long time to kick in.
If you want to see an interesting Nazi political drama, you ought to check out Conspiracy with Kenneth Branagh, Stanley Tucci and a stack of other English supporting actors that you'll have seen before. Its at the video store.
Wicked Lester
14 Jul 2003, 14:08
I've seen Conspiracy - its pretty good.
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
The show could also be called "Begbie does Munchen"!
As a history buff I found it interesting, but strangely flawed.
It portrayed him as an instant psychopath, which to a degree is correct - but I think it failed I think was to explain the root cause of some of his prejudices in greater detail. For example his hatred of communism was due to his belief that communist insurgents were responsible for the collapse of the German military machine in WW1.
The portrayal of Rohm also was a little simplistic. Also in all the bio's I've read there has never been any implication that his Iron Cross was not completely and utterly deserved.
Sets are good though, the mood well captured and Carlyle makes a good Adolf.
There was a bit in the paper about how the Jews made sure the producers made sure it didn't make Hitler look humane (if that's at all possible anyway). But I'm certian that in most of his talks he didn't blame EVERYTHING on the jews.
Also, that scene where he belts his little dog. I found that interesting. As I recall after watching several documentaries during high school and numersous books on the nut case, he loved dogs and never harmed them at all.
I look forward to the second part tonight.
i thought that it was a good start to the mini series. although you've got to remember that it is a mini series and not a documentary so i'm sure that they've taken liberties with the story.
i also think that they went over the top with the spitting. the guy couldn't open his mouth without a litre of the stuff pouring out.
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
... but I think it failed I think was to explain the root cause of some of his prejudices in greater detail. For example his hatred of communism was due to his belief that communist insurgents were responsible for the collapse of the German military machine in WW1.
He did make mention of the reds being at fault for Germany's betrayal while on "the verge of victory" in one of the beerhall rant scenes - when steins started flying and the SA started busting the heads of the Bolsheviks in the audience - although the link for that being the root cause of his hatred of Bolshevism probably wasn't made clear enough.
Anyway, for those with a further historical interest in the man, the rise and the fall you'd do well to get a hold of these two books:
Kershaw, I. Hitler 1889-1936: Hubris, Penguin, 2001.
Kershaw, I. Hitler 1936-1945: Nemesis, Penguin, 2001.
evertonfc
15 Jul 2003, 03:52
Originally posted by jacqui9
One of the most incredible performances I have seen by an actor in a long time.
Massive call.
Either that, or you haven't seen a lot of films.
Reasonable performance. Looks relatively similar, but I thought the script was average at best and made me think of him not as an evil dictator, but as an unemployed stripper in Sheffield and as a shady dealer for smack addicts.
I couldn't help but think 'Gazza' would rip off that semi-moustache and start 'gettin' his kit off for a few quid'...
In fact the whole show was briliant.
It was ok. I've seen better docos and films on the subject matter.
Was anyone else thrown off by the fact it was all spoken in either UK or American vernacular? I impossible to ignore.
Gave an easy to understand account of one of one of the most hated dictators of history.
Perhaps this was the biggest problem?
And I think Hitler only became genuinely evil when he was at the height of his reign. I doubt as if he was as possesed as this made out.
They tried to portray a psychotic adolescent/young adult in the earlier stages, and I'd certainly question this. I think they've underestimated his tactical nouse and suggested it was merely a snowball effect that got things moving.
Although I'm not doubting he was probably a but odd growing up, I think "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" is perhaps slightly more applicable than the file suggests.
When you see him stare at the 'S-O-David' ring on his superior's hand - it looked great and certainly helped one to make sense, but again, it wasn't terribly convincing. Same with the Dog-lashing scene. It just didn't do much for me. Didn't he love dogs?
Despite the likeness of Carlyle to Hitler in certain poses, they should have picked a more stocky and imposing actor - preferably one who I couldn't have labelled as 'Gazza' and who didn't posses a most non-Bavarian accent.
If I had it my way, I would have had it done in German and have the actors all German. The language is a harsh and strong sounding one that would have complimented the notion of the 'rise of evil'. Having it subtitled may have taken something away, but it would have been far more beneficial than having Brits talking about bombing Britain.
It was all a bit too much of a novelty. It's a hard one to pull off, but they've fallen just short IMO.
evertonfc
15 Jul 2003, 04:06
Originally posted by Porthos
When you see that the title is Hitler: Rise Of Evil, you can be pretty sure that its not going to be historically correct, or even unbiased.
It was OK. I felt that the rush through his childhood was a bit too much of a timeline - decent storytelling took a long time to kick in.
If you want to see an interesting Nazi political drama, you ought to check out Conspiracy with Kenneth Branagh, Stanley Tucci and a stack of other English supporting actors that you'll have seen before. Its at the video store.
Great post mate.
My thoughts exactly :)
Wicked Lester
15 Jul 2003, 08:52
Part 2 was quite disappointing.
Clearly most of us posting here have an interest in and have read about this period of history in some detail.
I guess while watching the mini series I found it difficult to understand at which audience the series was pitched.
For those that have little to no understanding of the history of the time I believe large parts of it would have been quite confusing.
For those with a decent knowledge I thought it was a little unfulfilling for the reasons others have oultined above.
Carlyle was good, but he played old Adolf as a straight out psychotic - so for the actor it was a rerun of Begbie - a bit more depth to the role would have been good, though its not necessarily the actor's fault.
Pessimistic
15 Jul 2003, 10:14
Did remind me of begbie (but there again braveheart reminded me of Mad Max) but was sufficiently different to show carlyle is versatile.
His characterisation (whether true or not) of 'the man' was compelling and the highlight of the show. The references to theatrics (which was also a big part of the rise of hitler) and using contrasts (eg. violence with soft music accompanyment) made it enjoyable to me.
They did rush over how hitlers opinions were formed but how do you show that in film/video ? Not really possible.
Wicked Lester
15 Jul 2003, 11:12
The problem with portraying him as a one dimensional psychopath is that it ignores the testimonials of hundreds of people following WW2 who stated that, while they were not members of the Nazi Party, they found Hitler charismatic!
His ability to mesmerise a crowd was legendary. Given the representation of Adolf as a highly strung maniac I was left wondering how it could be that anyone could have fallen for it, but of course they did - in their millions and not just in Germany - consequently the series didn't work for me.
Also the economic shambles and desperation experienced in Germany during that period (which was partly the reason many were willing to grasp at anything resembling a soluation) was not well demonstrated either.
Pessimistic
15 Jul 2003, 11:25
I think they showed the charismatic effect he had on people
I caught the last hour on last night and Channel 7's voice over guy came in whilst the tallies of people killed came up on screen.
Nice timing! :rolleyes:
I was disappointed with it.
Richmondfan#1
15 Jul 2003, 16:55
It was certainly not as good as it could have been but it was still respectable.
They should have focused more on the politics, and perhaps ethics, of it all. For example the murdering of Rohm - they didn't explain that he wanted to take over the SS and SA which would make him extremely power and a bit of a threat to Hitler. I feel they didn't cover this well.
But after watching some extraordinary doco's on Hitler's rise and the Holocaust in history for a semester, this could never really live up to expectations ... but it could have been better.
Richmondfan#1
15 Jul 2003, 16:56
Also, was Martin Bormann in the miniseries at all? They did have Hitler talking to a shortish fat man but I had no idea if it was Bormann.
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
The problem with portraying him as a one dimensional psychopath is that it ignores the testimonials of hundreds of people following WW2 who stated that, while they were not members of the Nazi Party, they found Hitler charismatic!
Ah yes, the so-called 'fuhrer cult' that extended from the ordinary Reich citizen all the way through to the upper echelons of power - Goring, Goebbels, Ribbentrop, Keitel etc.
This charisma and popularity was as such that he was a sex-symbol to many German women and a demi-god to the vast majority of the German population. Positively mind-boggling, but at the same time proof positive that the man himself and his propaganda minister Goebbels were masters of psychological manipulation and control.
Falchoon
15 Jul 2003, 18:43
Originally posted by FIGJAM
I caught the last hour on last night and Channel 7's voice over guy came in whilst the tallies of people killed came up on screen.
Nice timing! :rolleyes:
Appalling
wagstaff
15 Jul 2003, 20:57
Originally posted by FIGJAM
I caught the last hour on last night and Channel 7's voice over guy came in whilst the tallies of people killed came up on screen.
Nice timing! :rolleyes:
Yeah, I saw that too. As if John Deeks' promos couldn't have waited till the actual credits rolled up.
Pathetic.
Originally posted by FIGJAM
I caught the last hour on last night and Channel 7's voice over guy came in whilst the tallies of people killed came up on screen.
Nice timing! :rolleyes:
Right up there with when they cut to a long ad-break when the ball went out for a corner during the FIFA World Stars vs Socceroos match, and missed the opening goal.
Another shining moment for 7 was when The Insider starring Russell Crowe premiered on network television. The morons decided to do a split-screen advertisement when the epilogue (some text explaining some statistics on smoking and what happened to the characters, if I remember to when I saw it on DVD) was appearing on-screen - making the conclusion of the film illegible.
:rolleyes: Professionalism at its best.
Briedis
17 Jul 2003, 21:26
Originally posted by evertonfc
Was anyone else thrown off by the fact it was all spoken in either UK or American vernacular? I impossible to ignore.
Yep. THat got to me as well.
I will say though that Carlyle had a very hard task to do as Hitler is very well-known and most people have preconceptions of the character.
I enjoyed it on the whole.