View Full Version : When did Australian cricket jump the shark?
Johnson#26
3 Nov 2010, 21:32
As they say in TV, when did the Aussie cricket team reach its moment of 'yep, we are officially in trouble' (aka: jumping the shark)?
For mine, it was the 2nd half of the 07/08 ODIs against India and SL. The first half of that series we were going nicely, but began to struggle late, players were shuffled (Hogg left out of his final match, guys like Noffke getting a run), and we ended up losing the finals to India 2-0. Have never recovered since.
Can you pinpoint the moment?
The bowling attack atm is woeful.
The whole Tim Nielsen error/era.
When you got beaten by SA stands out for me. A combination of things from that series, mainly the 414 run chase at Perth and then allowing SA to score 459 in their first innings at the MCG after having them on the ropes.
BarneyBent
3 Nov 2010, 21:48
Bowling is woeful. Siddle hasn't come along as expected. He needs to be sent back to state cricket. Johnson is getting more and more inconsistent. I can forgive Johnson, because somehow he does take wickets, but you can't have both him and Siddle in the same side.
Hastings was a ridiculous selection tonight, given McKay was available. McKay is a very handy ODI bowler.
What we really need is a quality, tearaway quick that can bowl yorkers every once in a while. Starc may be that bowler, but he's young and yet to show much.
Our batting isn't too bad in the short form of the game. Watson and Haddin up top are a pretty decent pair, Ponting and Clarke are good, White, Hussey and Smith. That's a strong line-up, though it didn't work tonight (White's golden and Watson being scratchy didn't help).
Doherty looks like he could be a keeper in ODIs, though his bowling after his 4 wicket burst I found a little disappointing tbh (he kept drifting down leg for one thing).
Honestly, I don't know. But going into the 2nd ODI, I'd be bringing in McKay for Siddle, maybe Starc for Hastings, and Punter for Marsh.
Losing Warne and McGrath would have had a slightly adverse effect on the bowling attack. And you also had people like MacGill, Lee and Gillespie as well retire/be absent through injury.
Losing Hayden, Langer and Gilchrist (and to a lesser degree Martyn) may have a similar outcome for the batting.
I would have thought it obvious that when so many high quality players pull the plug or are unavailable you aren't going to replace them with similar quality players overnight - if at all.
Australian cricket supporters have been spoilt by a once-in-a-lifetime period of high quality players and a downturn was inevitable. It's hardly a surprise that that downturn has finally arrived.
Waugh, Waugh, Langer, Martyn, Gilly, McGrath, Gillespie, Fleming, Warne. Pretty hard to replace that lot.
mattymac
3 Nov 2010, 22:09
Australian cricket supporters have been spoilt by a once-in-a-lifetime period of high quality players and a downturn was inevitable. It's hardly a surprise that that downturn has finally arrived.
downturn, yes. complete f'n muppethood is another thing altogether
Johnson#26
3 Nov 2010, 22:10
It's the way games have been played and lost, sherb. And the players selected.
I reckon we could all cop losing, as long as we were showing the willingness to stick to a plan to build a side for the future. Paine? Ferguson? Usman? Etc. Can understand that people will point to Starc, etc, but the way the ODI side is selected is far different (it seems) to the Tests, and players are being shuffled through without being given the time to settle. Doherty's a great find, hopefully signals the end of Hauritz being the #1 ODI spinner for us. Nothing personal, but Doherty showed real assertiveness and verve, which Hauritz, for whatever reason, has never really shown.
downturn, yes. complete f'n muppethood is another thing altogether
Lol, turn it up. :D
Bowling is woeful. Siddle hasn't come along as expected. He needs to be sent back to state cricket. Johnson is getting more and more inconsistent. I can forgive Johnson, because somehow he does take wickets, but you can't have both him and Siddle in the same side.
Hastings was a ridiculous selection tonight, given McKay was available. McKay is a very handy ODI bowler.
What we really need is a quality, tearaway quick that can bowl yorkers every once in a while. Starc may be that bowler, but he's young and yet to show much.
Our batting isn't too bad in the short form of the game. Watson and Haddin up top are a pretty decent pair, Ponting and Clarke are good, White, Hussey and Smith. That's a strong line-up, though it didn't work tonight (White's golden and Watson being scratchy didn't help).
Doherty looks like he could be a keeper in ODIs, though his bowling after his 4 wicket burst I found a little disappointing tbh (he kept drifting down leg for one thing).
Honestly, I don't know. But going into the 2nd ODI, I'd be bringing in McKay for Siddle, maybe Starc for Hastings, and Punter for Marsh.
Couldn't believe that selection tbh, Hastings seriously aint up to the level yet.
Gazza_11
3 Nov 2010, 22:17
Waugh, Waugh, Langer, Martyn, Gilly, McGrath, Gillespie, Fleming, Warne. Pretty hard to replace that lot.
Don't forget SuperPonting.
Bomber Bears
3 Nov 2010, 22:19
It's way above playing personel. We dont have the side we did a few years back, Warne and Mcgrath were always going to be difficult to replace. But there is talent around.
It's the mentality at the top that is the issue. They care alot more about money than performance. How else could you explain these one dayers, weeks from the biggest test series for some time. This is time players should be playing in the shield, getting ready for the longer form, but they are playing pointless ODI's for the cash.
It's the same pre-Ashes 09. Pull Stuart Clark from a county stint to play some muppet ODI's.
The de-valuing of the Sheffield Shield compared with One Day International Cricket is a joke, this mentality is getting us in trouble.
The rot set in around the Ashes last year IMO. We were going well to beat a better side in South Africa at their home, and since then we've done our best to piss any good work away.
It's the way games have been played and lost, sherb. And the players selected.
I reckon we could all cop losing, as long as we were showing the willingness to stick to a plan to build a side for the future. Paine? Ferguson? Usman? Etc. Can understand that people will point to Starc, etc, but the way the ODI side is selected is far different (it seems) to the Tests, and players are being shuffled through without being given the time to settle. Doherty's a great find, hopefully signals the end of Hauritz being the #1 ODI spinner for us. Nothing personal, but Doherty showed real assertiveness and verve, which Hauritz, for whatever reason, has never really shown.
I have my doubts to be honest, but that's another issue. :)
You come off a successful era and you are going to go through a lot of players. The mid 80s was no different if I recall. Eventually you get the mix right. I am sure if the internet was around back then this place would be going equally beserk. :D
It takes time to find the right replacement for a champion player - eg look at how many keepers Australia went through when Marsh retired - off the top of my head we had Phillips, Woolley, Zoehrer and Dyer in the space of three or four years before we found Healy. It's no difference in the search for a spinner post-Warne.
It's also no coincidence that our period of struggle in the mid 80s followed immediately after the retirement of three champions in one hit - Lillee, Greg Chappell and Marsh.
People carry on as if we are getting thrashed. We aren't, we simply aren't as dominant as we used to be. And that's because we have lost so many greats.
It's way above playing personel. We dont have the side we did a few years back, Warne and Mcgrath were always going to be difficult to replace. But there is talent around.
It's the mentality at the top that is the issue. They care alot more about money than performance. How else could you explain these one dayers, weeks from the biggest test series for some time. This is time players should be playing in the shield, getting ready for the longer form, but they are playing pointless ODI's for the cash.
It's the same pre-Ashes 09. Pull Stuart Clark from a county stint to play some muppet ODI's.
The de-valuing of the Sheffield Shield compared with One Day International Cricket is a joke, this mentality is getting us in trouble.
The rot set in around the Ashes last year IMO. We were going well to beat a better side in South Africa at their home, and since then we've done our best to piss any good work away.
It's all about money now, didn't you know? That rules the game now, both here and abroad.
Both the one-day and 20/20 formats of the game were invented/fine-tuned in bloody England (of all places) as money making exercises.
If the traditional home of the game (England) can do that, it's hardly a surprise that the more entrepreneurial areas of the world are going to jump aboard the bandwagon.
Enjoy Test and First-Class cricket while you can, because it won't be around forever. Eventually it will all be mindless money-making rubbish parading as cricket. Thankfully, it won't be in my lifetime.
Anyway, that's off topic. Sorry. :o
Glenno23
3 Nov 2010, 22:35
What i find most disturbing is that we lack that killer punch
Tonight Sri lanka were in big trouble and we let them off the hook
1st test in India. Needed 80 runs to win with Laxman with a bad back 2 wickets to take and we lose that
Thats just 2 instances in the past 5 weeks
There have been many more instances where it seems we just sit back and think its going to happen
****. If they're 8 down, crowd the mother****ers and put the pressure on them. We let it go too long, then we panic, make even shittier field placings and lose
mattymac
3 Nov 2010, 22:35
we simply aren't as dominant as we used to be
lol. as far as understatements go thats up there with "think we've hit a bit of a snag" from the captain of the ss titanic
we are chronically mismanaged. we have the talent yet we are comfortably the worst of the serious cricket playing nations
lol. as far as understatements go thats up there with "think we've hit a bit of a snag" from the captain of the ss titanic
We're still extremely competitive against the (currently) best sides in the world. Hardly an understatement on my part. If we were copping thrashings I'd be concerned.
we are chronically mismanaged. we have the talent yet we are comfortably the worst of the serious cricket playing nations
And there in return is a massive overstatement on your part.
Bomber Bears
4 Nov 2010, 00:05
Also, the captaincy. Ponting vs Waugh
Ponting may well be better tactically than Steve. Many may've been. But Steve Waugh was a much stronger leader. He managed the ego's of the dressing room alot better than Ponting ever has. So whilst not everyone would've gotten on behind the scenes, which is to be expected in any sporting side (as anyone who has played sport would know) he always prevented a united front on the field. In the Ponting era there is division that has been allowed to reach the surface, eg Watson vs Lee Ashes 09, the talk about North over Clarke now etc. Likewise Waugh got more out of his players as individuals than Ponting ever has.
You dont always get a Mark Taylor, someone who is both an excellent tactician AND man manager and leader. Steve Waugh was a leader though, and Im still not convinced Ponting actually is a leader. He doesnt seem to inspire his side particularly well and he doesnt keep the dressing room together in the same way.
I think Ashes 09 was where division started to creep in as well.
King Elvis
4 Nov 2010, 00:08
When you got beaten by SA stands out for me. A combination of things from that series, mainly the 414 run chase at Perth and then allowing SA to score 459 in their first innings at the MCG after having them on the ropes.
This, losing the home Saffer Series.
Selecting Lee and Symonds when they were both unfit and out of form.
Selecting guys like Siddle/North regardless of their actual performances. Performances are irrelevant to selection these days.
We are rooted.
Firstly let me say its not as if you are that bad is it .Aus are just on a level with the rest .
I have said all along Aus made a big mistake after 2005 when they kept the same team just so they could get revenge on England .I always get shouted down on here when I say this but for me its plain to see it is the root of the problem .Aus let a team become stupidly old all at once and then changed on mass .Whereas in the past they had been brutal with players just past their peak.
Adelaide Hawk
4 Nov 2010, 05:30
Doherty looks like he could be a keeper in ODIs, though his bowling after his 4 wicket burst I found a little disappointing tbh (he kept drifting down leg for one thing).
Doherty is a parklands bowler. If there is anyone more likely to go for over 100 runs in a ODI, it's Doherty. I couldn't believe 4 Sri Lankan "batsmen" who got out to pure straight balls. That won't happen very often.
And WTF is Hastings????
King Elvis
4 Nov 2010, 08:28
Firstly let me say its not as if you are that bad is it .Aus are just on a level with the rest .
I have said all along Aus made a big mistake after 2005 when they kept the same team just so they could get revenge on England .I always get shouted down on here when I say this but for me its plain to see it is the root of the problem .Aus let a team become stupidly old all at once and then changed on mass .Whereas in the past they had been brutal with players just past their peak.
linda, you get shouted down because it's stupid.
We beat you 5-0, we kept the same team because they were still the best team in the world.
The bulk of our current problems come from selection and coaching issues.
Doodlesweaver
4 Nov 2010, 10:57
Doherty is a parklands bowler. If there is anyone more likely to go for over 100 runs in a ODI, it's Doherty. I couldn't believe 4 Sri Lankan "batsmen" who got out to pure straight balls. That won't happen very often.
And WTF is Hastings????
Why has he got such a good record in List A matches if he is so crap? You aren't making sense about Doherty. He looks like someone who can bowl accurately. A skill very seriously lacking in the current attack.
mattymac
4 Nov 2010, 12:29
Hardly an understatement on my part.
saying "we simply aren't as dominant as we used to be" implies that we are still dominant which is bullsh1te
And there in return is a massive overstatement on your part.
which part? the part about being chronically mismanaged or the part about being the worst of the serious cricket playing nations?
It jumped the day our idiot selectors annointed the reject shop version of David Beckham the next Test Captain.
mattymac
4 Nov 2010, 12:51
Aus are just on a level with the rest
maybe in terms of talent and when it occasionally all comes together we can still walk the walk. trouble is we've started to capitulate. even the poms don't capitulate anymore (well, they have rare relapses). capitulation starts when a culture of losing and low expectations sets in. the culture of a team has a life of its own but its definately fostered by the leadership. coach, admin. bugger the contracts just pay them out and axe them. punter has a lot to answer for aswell, but that comes down to admin aswell. he should've been axed as captain after his second ashes defeat in england but he wasn't and now its too late to replace him with anyone decent (katich)
roostersgal4eva
5 Nov 2010, 10:34
WE jumped the shark when we started pandering to Media and so called aussie cricketing fans by droping our ruthnesless for PR because we werent not 'liked'
I never sawAmbrose or McGrath smile when they got hit for 4, nor Taylor or Waugh be contempt with anything other than going for the juggler.
King Elvis
5 Nov 2010, 11:22
CA sent a letter to all of the players prior to the last Ashes telling them to tone down the aggression we played with.
roostersgal4eva
5 Nov 2010, 13:32
CA sent a letter to all of the players prior to the last Ashes telling them to tone down the aggression we played with.
and weve been going downhill since........coincidence? I think not
Surprised no one has given this answer. We remained dominant for the best part of a year and a half after that Ashes whitewash. Clark had filled McGrath's shoes wonderfully well, and Lee had pulled the pace back a touch to improve his accuracy, and hence improved himself as a test bowler. Got his average under 30 for a time there and won the AB medal to top it off.
The moment Aussie cricket jumped the shark was when Lee and Clark broke down - the away Indian tour of 2008. Our bowling slipped back to the pack, we had to start looking at blokes like Siddle, and we went on to lose our first home test series in forever. We haven't gotten it together since.
I can remember thinking after returning home from England in late 2007 that Aussie cricket was just going to go from strength to strength post-McGrath/Warne - we were halfway through a pummeling of the Sri Lankans to start our Summer and the S.Clark/B.Lee combo had stepped in to complete a flawless transition. Our failure to uncover a star apprentice in that time has been decisive; Johnson was the man they were guiding through in that third seamer's role and he hasn't come good. Plus the selectors are ****ed in the head in general.
Chops_a_must
5 Nov 2010, 14:39
juggler.
The jugger and now those poor jugglers! :(
What have you got against jugglers? I know we should be going for something, but jugglers aren't it.
Those innocent jugglers provide a vital societal function. :(
roostersgal4eva
5 Nov 2010, 14:53
lamo.....its a figure of speach mate
in otherwords we were ruthless when we had our dominance - now we have spineles PR and Image concious pansies!
lamo.....its a figure of speach mate
in otherwords we were ruthless when we had our dominance - now we have spineles PR and Image concious pansies!
Sphot on.
Scotland
5 Nov 2010, 16:59
LOL @ Chops' post going straight over the head of its target.
Additional LOL @ 'juggler'.
Back on topic, the rot set in years ago. Resting players, picking players who don't have the runs on the board at shield level and keeping our of form players in the side are nothing new.
The problem is that post 2007 we lost our best players and it became a lot harder to wallpaper over the cracks. Ponting is on his own now with no Warne, McGrath and Gilchrist to help him out tactically or dig him out of a hole via performance.
Since Warne finished we've played Hauritz, Hogg, White, McGain, Casson, Krejza and Smith in the test side - that's just spinners. I doubt Ponting understands how to set a field for any of them.
We've seemingly given up on Hodge, Jaques, Rogers & Hughes despite consistent shield from all at various times. We've also anointed Clarke as the chosen one and have high hopes for Ferguson, the former who is not really performing and the latter whose shield record is nothing special.
Johnson, North, Hussey have all struggled of late and are still in the test side.
Our preferred bowling lineup is..... anyone want to have a guess? Some combination of Hilfenhaus/Johnson/Siddle/Bollinger/Hauritz/McKay etc.
And that's not even getting started on the ODI and T20 sides and selection/tactical blunders...
We'll come good eventually, but we should start by picking players absed on state & international performances (and individual match needs) rather than whatever our basis is currently.
roostersgal4eva
5 Nov 2010, 17:09
LOL @ Chops' post going straight over the head of its target.
Additional LOL @ 'juggler'.
Back on topic, the rot set in years ago. Resting players, picking players who don't have the runs on the board at shield level and keeping our of form players in the side are nothing new.
The problem is that post 2007 we lost our best players and it became a lot harder to wallpaper over the cracks. Ponting is on his own now with no Warne, McGrath and Gilchrist to help him out tactically or dig him out of a hole via performance.
Since Warne finished we've played Hauritz, Hogg, White, McGain, Casson, Krejza and Smith in the test side - that's just spinners. I doubt Ponting understands how to set a field for any of them.
We've seemingly given up on Hodge, Jaques, Rogers & Hughes despite consistent shield from all at various times. We've also anointed Clarke as the chosen one and have high hopes for Ferguson, the former who is not really performing and the latter whose shield record is nothing special.
Johnson, North, Hussey have all struggled of late and are still in the test side.
Our preferred bowling lineup is..... anyone want to have a guess? Some combination of Hilfenhaus/Johnson/Siddle/Bollinger/Hauritz/McKay etc.
And that's not even getting started on the ODI and T20 sides and selection/tactical blunders...
We'll come good eventually, but we should start by picking players absed on state & international performances (and individual match needs) rather than whatever our basis is currently.
oh it didnt go over my head....I just played that ball on its merrit and let it thorugh to the keeper.
Apart from your assesment on Fergerson who will be comesomthing special I couldnt agree more
Johnson#26
5 Nov 2010, 18:33
lamo.....its a figure of speach mate
in otherwords we were ruthless when we had our dominance - now we have spineles PR and Image concious pansies!
:thumbsu::thumbsu::thumbsu:
ManWithNoName
5 Nov 2010, 18:56
In the paper today:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/62a19d9d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/59f010ef.jpg
Johnson#26
5 Nov 2010, 19:29
Tugga. What an Australian.
http://images.smh.com.au/2009/06/21/596682/lg_steve_waugh-600x400.jpg
http://www.cricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/107800/107881.2.jpg
Chops_a_must
5 Nov 2010, 21:19
I bet Shane Watson gives good head.
In the paper today:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/62a19d9d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/59f010ef.jpg
:D Lol, funny stuff. I thought that was an actual photo of Clarke for a sec
KevinCat07
6 Nov 2010, 13:14
In the paper today:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/62a19d9d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Jarryd/59f010ef.jpg
Quality that.
The India/Symonds/Harbajahn incident was bad.
We hung our captain and players out to dry.
And then we had our administration telling players to tone down the aggression before the Ashes. What an absolute joke.
We need to get that aggression back. Proper aggression, not "I'm Peter Siddle, and I'm angry, and watch me bowl this pathetic excuse for a short bowl" agression.
Indian_Hotdog
6 Nov 2010, 23:55
As they say in TV, when did the Aussie cricket team reach its moment of 'yep, we are officially in trouble'
Can you pinpoint the moment?
.
ah yes , that would be Sydney 2008.
Indian_Hotdog
6 Nov 2010, 23:57
We need to get that aggression back. Proper aggression
I think what you need more is some good talented players.There are cricketing giants who dont utter a word on the field.
King Elvis
7 Nov 2010, 17:35
Tugga. What an Australian.
http://images.smh.com.au/2009/06/21/596682/lg_steve_waugh-600x400.jpg
http://www.cricinfo.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/107800/107881.2.jpg
This post deadset gave me a boner, and I'm not even going to *no homo it.
The India/Symonds/Harbajahn incident was bad.
We hung our captain and players out to dry.
And then we had our administration telling players to tone down the aggression before the Ashes. What an absolute joke.
We need to get that aggression back. Proper aggression, not "I'm Peter Siddle, and I'm angry, and watch me bowl this pathetic excuse for a short bowl" agression.
Excellent post.
As someone has already posted, when we let the South Africans off the hook at the MCG, and Brett Lee had a sore foot and couldn't bowl, but he came in to bat, Ponting said to him, 'what you can't bowl but you can bat?'
The Sydney Test in 2008 was another.
But for me it started when we let our 'heroes' play on well into the late 30's, thus leaving the next generation to wilt on the vine, guys like Hayden, S Waugh, Gilchrist etc, whilst they were dominating historically weak attacks it was a prime opportunity to blood some kids at ages 20 -25, but no, now we wait until they are 30 before we give them a run.
The India/Symonds/Harbajahn incident was bad.
We hung our captain and players out to dry.
And then we had our administration telling players to tone down the aggression before the Ashes. What an absolute joke.
We need to get that aggression back. Proper aggression, not "I'm Peter Siddle, and I'm angry, and watch me bowl this pathetic excuse for a short bowl" agression.
That for me was when Australia lost its aura. That whole series was very messy.
:D Lol, funny stuff. I thought that was an actual photo of Clarke for a sec
Yeah so did I :p
BarneyBent
10 Nov 2010, 05:56
I think what you need more is some good talented players.There are cricketing giants who dont utter a word on the field.
Aggression doesn't necessarily mean aggressive sledging. Hell, that's the problem. We're all huff and puff at the moment with little substance. We need aggressive mindsets, aggressive fields, aggressive game plans. We need to try to win games, not prevent the other team from winning. We need to trust our spinner, whoever that may be. We need to give our batsmen license to score quickly and freely. We need batsmen that aren't playing for their spot in the side, but playing for Australia's spot at the top. We need to pick players on form, not because they've been picked before (Peter Siddle, I'm looking at you).
In short, we need to stop worrying about losing. The Australian cricket team used to go into matches as if hunting the win, stalking their prey, and they were nearly always successful. Now we approach a Test match as a challenge to survive, and if we come away with the win, then it's a bonus.
We need the killer instinct back. Steve Smith seems to have it. He makes big scores, he's dynamic in the field, he flights and turns the ball, he's aggressive in every aspect of his game. Phillip Hughes has it, he's always looking to score and put the opposition on the back foot. Cameron White has it. Doug Bollinger has it. A few young state players, like Khawaja, Aaron Finch, Mitch Starc, etc, players of the future, they have it.
But Ponting doesn't have it any more. Clarke is a great player, but he's not aggressive. Katich is too busy holding the batting order together. Ditto Watson. Hussey and North are too busy concentrating on saving their spots. Haddin has it in bucketloads, but he lacks the discipline to utilise it effectively. Ditto Johnson with the ball. Hilfy is a very good swing bowler, but he's more into forcing the batsmen into bad shots than actively chasing their wicket.
We need some bloody fire in the belly! :mad::mad::mad:
King Elvis
10 Nov 2010, 08:42
Great post!
Honestly, I think Hussey & North have become a millstone around the neck of the side - they put every under player under massive pressure to perform, and they are clearly batting for their futures, and not in the interests of the team.
You get Hughes/Smith/Khawaja/Ferguson in the team, you tell them that they're in the side for the next 12 months, and you want to see sensible but attacking cricket from them, and you'd revitalise the team.
TheColeTrain
10 Nov 2010, 09:27
I think what you need more is some good talented players.There are cricketing giants who dont utter a word on the field.
We have some brilliant talent.
They just aren't getting played because Hilditch prefers a settled team to a good team.