Is the AFL truly national with its history and records?

[|D_J^B_J|]

In theory, the AFL is a conglomeration of the VFL, WAFL and SANFL. So why do games at VFL level count as AFL games whereas games at SANFL or WAFL level do not?

For example; Darrel Panizza played 274 games for Claremont and 74 games for Woodville, yet is listed as having played zero AFL games. Kevin Bartlett on the other hand, played 403 games for Richmond pre-1990, yet is listed as having played 403 AFL games?

There is no doubt that the standard of the AFL with the four Western Australian and South Australian sides is a significant mark-up from the standard of the old VFL.

The obvious advantage with having a national competition is that spectators from all around the country now get to see players from different states that they (most likely) never would have had the chance to see.

If the AFL is truly national, it would be consistent in including the rich histories of the WAFL and SANFL in its record books, and not just the VFL.

Thoughts?

[MightyFighting]

What planet are you from?

The VFL became the AFL, it didn't "conglomerate" with anyone.

End of question.

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
What planet are you from?

The VFL became the AFL, it didn't "conglomerate" with anyone.

That's exactly my point.

In theory, a national competition should be formed by combining the state competitions.

Clearly, the AFL wasn't, meaning it is not truly a national competition.

[MightyFighting]

BTW, in your signature, that Town of Fremantle v Western Australian Temperance and Recreation Society was a Rugby match.

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
That's exactly my point.

In theory, a national competition should be formed by combining the state competitions.

Clearly, the AFL wasn't, meaning it is not truly a national competition. It's a national competition if it contains teams from across the nation; it doesn't depend on history.

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
BTW, in your signature, that Town of Fremantle v Western Australian Temperance and Recreation Society was a Rugby match.

Check your PMs.

[McAlmanac]

The competition is surely national.

But full points for mentioning Darrell Panizza in a thread. Good bloke, "Dollar".

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
Check your PMs. What's a PM?

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
What's a PM?

Private messages.

[DaveW]

IMO WAFL records to the end of 1986 and SANFL records to the end of 1990 should be given as much as importance as old VFL records.

But they're not, and I can't see that changing. No use getting worked up over something that isn't going to change.

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
Private messages. I see. Well, fair enough.

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by DaveW
IMO WAFL records to the end of 1986 and SANFL records to the end of 1990 should be given as much as importance as old VFL records.

But they're not, and I can't see that changing. No use getting worked up over something that isn't going to change.

Fair point DaveW.

IMO, it's vitally important for people growing up in WA and SA to recognize their local state competition and the importance of it. Part of the reason children are unaware of the history of their state league is because of the lack of importance placed on it by the AFL.

Fifty years ago, in WA and SA, people were embedded with past happenings of the WAFL and SANFL respectively, nothing was ever said of the VFL. Nowadays, barely any young football followers are aware of the tradition involved with their state league, as they are only embedded with past happenings of the VFL. It's a shame, really.

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
I see. Well, fair enough.

I tend to wonder what the actual rules were of the game played in 1868, the first recorded game in Fremantle encorporating rules of Australian football. It wasn't a rugby game (which was the preferred game in Australia at the time) or an AFL game, but it combined several rules from both codes.

It would be speculation to suggest which code the majority of the rules consisted of, as nothing is officially recorded.

[Adelaide Hawk]

I would just like to draw people's attentions to the Official Statistical History of the AFL, 2003 ... especially page 548 where they list all players who have played 350 or mores at senior level throught Australia.
This publication is constantly expanding and I think you will find more references being made to SANFL and WAFL in future seasons.

[the croucher]

Originally posted by DaveW
IMO WAFL records to the end of 1986 and SANFL records to the end of 1990 should be given as much as importance as old VFL records.

But they're not, and I can't see that changing. No use getting worked up over something that isn't going to change.

Well...may not change in the near future, but we have to start chipping away at these things.

The records of competitions from other areas should not be swamped by the AFL & associates media blitz.

There are people who are interested in developing a "standard" career format for Australian Football players throughout the country. If a player played in a principal league then his total career tally should include reference to all his senior matches and goals be they club (premiership, finals, night, miscellaneous), representative or State.

I don't accept that the present Victorian Football League is the same as that which began in 1897 i.e. Port Melbourne HAVE NOT won 15 VFL premierships.

We have to keep politely but vigorously knocking on the door...one day in the future they will let us in!

[the croucher]

Originally posted by Adelaide Hawk
I would just like to draw people's attentions to the Official Statistical History of the AFL, 2003 ... especially page 548 where they list all players who have played 350 or mores at senior level throught Australia.
This publication is constantly expanding and I think you will find more references being made to SANFL and WAFL in future seasons.


Would I be right in thinking that refers only to club matches for premiership points and finals?

Possibly does not include other matches at senior level e.g. night series/knockout, representative, and state games?

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by the croucher
I don't accept that the present Victorian Football League is the same as that which began in 1897 i.e. Port Melbourne HAVE NOT won 15 VFL premierships.

We have to keep politely but vigorously knocking on the door...one day in the future they will let us in! Actually the VFL began as the VFA in 1877. Port Melbourne have won 15 premierships in the VFA/VFL (the name change is irrelevant). Our achievements are not diminished by the fact that Tasmania were not competing, nor are they diminished by either the passage of time or your sour grapes.

You can keep "politely but vigorously knocking on the door" and we will keep politely but vigorously reminding you of the basic facts and telling you where to go.

[Vindaloo Mat]

I think it nonsense for SANFL, WAFL records to be included in AFL records.

Ted Whitten played his games in the VFL which is the same competition as the AFL. There has been change but also a fair degree of continuity.

What is missing however is a "senior Australian Football" stats. This would not become the AFL stats but would supplement it. Similar to the mentioned page in the AFL book.

So it makes sense to know that Plugger has kicked the most goals in the V/AFL as it is one comptition. All competitions have their own records. I for one would also like to see a list of all senior "Pinnacle" league records. Pre 1990 or there abouts.

[the croucher]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
In theory, the AFL is a conglomeration of the VFL, WAFL and SANFL. So why do games at VFL level count as AFL games whereas games at SANFL or WAFL level do not?

For example; Darrel Panizza played 274 games for Claremont and 74 games for Woodville, yet is listed as having played zero AFL games. Kevin Bartlett on the other hand, played 403 games for Richmond pre-1990, yet is listed as having played 403 AFL games?

<snip>

If the AFL is truly national, it would be consistent in including the rich histories of the WAFL and SANFL in its record books, and not just the VFL.

Thoughts?

Agree with you.

a case from tassie in the early 1970s selected at random...

Mike Smart came to Longford..from Claremont I think..and was selected in the Tas 1972 Carnival side. Why should his career tally be ignored?

In 1928 East Fremantle played the NTFA at York Park. All the players from that match should have a senior game listed in their career tally.

One could go on at length with similar examples.

[the croucher]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
Actually the VFL began as the VFA in 1877. Port Melbourne have won 15 premierships in the VFA/VFL (the name change is irrelevant). Our achievements are not diminished by the fact that Tasmania were not competing, nor are they diminished by either the passage of time or your sour grapes.

You can keep "politely but vigorously knocking on the door" and we will keep politely but vigorously reminding you of the basic facts and telling you where to go.

I was in no way attempting to diminish Port Melbourne's achievements, nor was I even thinking about the results of 2003 finals.

The VFL did not begin as the VFA in 1877. The VFA began in 1877 and continued to stand by itself for what - 120 or so years?

In keeping with the heading of this thread, isn't it ridiculous that many players who played in both comps. only have their VFL games listed as senior matches!

[the croucher]

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
I think it nonsense for SANFL, WAFL records to be included in AFL records.

Ted Whitten played his games in the VFL which is the same competition as the AFL. There has been change but also a fair degree of continuity.

What is missing however is a "senior Australian Football" stats. This would not become the AFL stats but would supplement it. Similar to the mentioned page in the AFL book.

So it makes sense to know that Plugger has kicked the most goals in the V/AFL as it is one comptition. All competitions have their own records. I for one would also like to see a list of all senior "Pinnacle" league records. Pre 1990 or there abouts.

Hear, Hear!

That is the sort of idea that a growing number of people are hoping to work on over the next few years.

[dj21]

Why would the AFL keep statistics of other competitions? The AFL recognises players that played in it's comp, just like the SANFL players are given recognition by the SANFL and WAFL players get recognition from the WAFL. The AFL is just another competition with it's own history which goes back to 1897 when it was started as the VFL.

Although I wouldn't mind those 4 VFA premierships essendon won being added to the tally.

[Adelaide Hawk]

Originally posted by the croucher
Would I be right in thinking that refers only to club matches for premiership points and finals?

Possibly does not include other matches at senior level e.g. night series/knockout, representative, and state games?

The figure includes senior club matches, state games, and international games. Night and pre-season games not included.
For example: Craig Bradley heads the list with 501 games.
This includes:
Port Adelaide (SANFL) 98
Carlton (VFL/AFL) 375
South Australia 19
International 9

Next comes Peter Carey (467), Russell Ebert (451), Greg Phillips 447), Michal Tuck (437), Kevin Bartlett (423), and so forth.

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Adelaide Hawk
International 9 Why include games played in another sport? :confused:

[Adelaide Hawk]

Originally posted by DaveW
Why include games played in another sport? :confused:

I agree, it seems irrelevant. However, that's what they are doing. Maybe it was to kick Bradley up over the 500 mark.
I also think the AFL are desperate to promote the hybrid game as often as possible and would be keen to see it recorded somewhere.

[Adrian Shelton]

I think SANFL career totals include Datsun/Escort/Foundation Cup games. If the VFL/AFL and WAFL listed theirs in the same way quite a few records would have to be changed. BTW in that most senior games list in the AFL yearbook have they given Rick Davies his 20 Hawthorn games back yet?(they only had his Sturt,South and State games total in last yrs)

[McAlmanac]

Originally posted by Adrian Shelton
I think SANFL career totals include Datsun/Escort/Foundation Cup games. If the VFL/AFL and WAFL listed theirs in the same way quite a few records would have to be changed. BTW in that most senior games list in the AFL yearbook have they given Rick Davies his 20 Hawthorn games back yet?(they only had his Sturt,South and State games total in last yrs)
Yep, the Jumbo Prince is listed as playing 20 for Hawthorn amongst his 390 games in this year's edition.

Do they count Ardath Cup matches? ;)

[CrowBoi]

If the records were pre-1990, geez, wouldn't Scott Hodges be kicking himself for having kicked 155 goals that year rather than 1989... ;)

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by McAlmanac
Yep, the Jumbo Prince is listed as playing 20 for Hawthorn amongst his 390 games in this year's edition.

Do they count Ardath Cup matches? ;)

"Ardath Ardath your a star, beats the other smokes by far!":D

I personally have a real problem with night games,escort cup,ardath cup,foundation cup, the whatever the f*ck it's called this year cup games been included.
I can't work why but I think it has to do with two things....
(1). It seems unfair on all the players that played in the era that these games didn't exist.
(2). Not all clubs competed in them in every year (the 1977 and 1976 NFL night series comes to mind there.)
(3). Who really cares who won them?(Apart from 88 hey Mac;) )

If they are to be included in a players records they should be seperate (IMO) eg: John Doe 110 premiership games; 8 night series games - 88 goals; 7 night series goals.

Rant over.

[Mobbenfuhrer]

Originally posted by the croucher
The VFL did not begin as the VFA in 1877. The VFA began in 1877 and continued to stand by itself for what - 120 or so years?

Actually yes it did. you two are talking about the two different VFLs.

VFA --> VFL*
VFL** --> AFL
* The one MightyFighting is talking about.
** The one the Croucher is talking about.

Originally posted by the croucher
In keeping with the heading of this thread, isn't it ridiculous that many players who played in both comps. only have their VFL games listed as senior matches!

Does the SANFL recognise matches played by players in their previous leagues eg the SAAFL? Or should matches played by a player from 1925-29 be cut so that only the SANFL matches are recognised?

A Citizen : 120 matches
1925 - 11 matches (SAFL).
1926 - 16 matches (SAFL).
1927 - 19 matches (SANFL).
1928 - 14 matches (SANFL).
1929 - 8 matches (SANFL).

SANFL matches = 41.

???

djbj is basing his hopes/requests on a theory that the VFL ended and that the AFL was a new league that started in 1990. It didn't. It's the same league, that simply changed its name. It's a theory, not a fact. The point is there, clear, and I sympathise. But its based on an incorrect assumption.

Mind you, someone above mentioned a stats record of highest level available. Now that I'm all for.

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Actually yes it did. you two are talking about the two different VFLs.

VFA --> VFL*
VFL** --> AFL
* The one MightyFighting is talking about.
** The one the Croucher is talking about.
hmmmmmmmmmm

We seem to have successfully highlighted the stupidity of the VFA's name change.

[Mobbenfuhrer]

Originally posted by MightyFighting
hmmmmmmmmmm

We seem to have successfully highlighted the stupidity of the VFA's name change.

Never fear, Cleary'll fix it :)

[MightyFighting]

Originally posted by Mobbenfuhrer
Never fear, Cleary'll fix it :) Right... Just after he slays all the monarchists. :rolleyes:

[Mobbenfuhrer]

Touche!

[DaveW]

Originally posted by CrowBoi
If the records were pre-1990, geez, wouldn't Scott Hodges be kicking himself for having kicked 155 goals that year rather than 1989... ;) I said it should be including 1990. i.e. pre-Crows. Not sure what it actually is though.

[|D_J^B_J|]

I guess I was wrong in stating in my initial post that the AFL was a conglomeration of all three leagues, but one thing that has always annoyed me is how many Victorians (and the AFL) have always (arrogantly and unrightly) shown a lack of respect towards the WAFL and SANFL and their players.

Pre-1970, the WANFL and SANFL were all of a similar standard to the VFL, evidenced by WA winning the 1961 inter-league carnival and the close results between the three leagues in the inter-league carnivals up until 1975, despite Victoria winning them.

Post-1970, the WAFL and SANFL (and to a lesser extent, the TFL) were great resources to the VFL, where many of the best players in the VFL came from, as more players from WA and SA moved to play footy Victoria. Despite this, the WAFL and SANFL were still able to maintain a very high standard.

Whilst I'll agree the VFL has always been of a slightly higher standard than the WAFL and SANFL (with the gap increasing over time, as more players moved to play footy in Victoria), the quality of players produced by all three leagues has been very similar. This is evidenced by the close State of Origin results since 1977 and WA thrashing Victoria by 94 points to win the first ever State of Origin carnival.

Despite this, many Victorians have still shown a lack of respect to any league ourside Victoria. Proof of this is evidenced by the outrage that came from Victoria when Barrie Robran, who played all his footy in the SANFL with North Adelaide, was given Hall of Fame Legend status, and the reluctance of the AFL to promote players who only played in the WA(N)FL and SANFL to the Hall of Fame.

IMO, it's about time the AFL gave more recognition to the WA(N)FL* and SANFL.





*The WANFL changed its name to the WAFL in 1980*

[Leaping Lindner]

Nice Post!
As a matter of interest |D_J^B_J| who do you reckon was the best Western Australian footballer never to play VFL?

[McAlmanac]

The bottom end of the comp is where the differences show up. I'm not sure Renz Bais, Bronte Mumford or Gary Bracegirdle would have got a game in the VFL.

To answer the above question - Stephen Michael? How about Carl Fragomeni? ;)

[DaveW]

Just out of interest - when did the SANFL and WANFL insert the N into the competition name?

edit: Going by Mobbs earlier post it was 1927 for the SANFL? Same year for the WANFL?

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
As a matter of interest |D_J^B_J| who do you reckon was the best Western Australian footballer never to play VFL?

From what I've seen it would have to be Stephen Michael. In the same year when the likes of Maurice Rioli, the Krakouer brothers, Gary Buckenara and Simon Beazley headed to the VFL; Michael showed loyalty to his family and club by staying with South Fremantle. Geelong did everything they could to get him, all to no avail.

Other Western Australians who were dominant in their time who showed loyalty to their WAFL club by remaining in the WAFL (but played before I was able to see them) were the likes of Bill Walker (Swan Districts), Merv McIntosh (Perth), George Doig (East Fremantle), Jack Clarke (East Fremantle) and Mel Whinnen (West Perth).

Interestingly, Jack 'Stork' Clarke is quoted as saying the following when asked about players moving to play in the VFL: "I was never interested in going to Victoria. I was West Australian. Loyalty was most important in that era. No one shifted clubs or went to Victoria. The thing that induces players to change clubs is money - there wasn't any about when I played."

Also, John Todd won the Sandover medal in 1955 playing for South Fremantle aged 17 (seventeen) years old, but sustained a career ending knee injury during the following season. No doubt he was destined for great things. Has there ever been a younger player to win the fairest and best award for their league? I think **** Reynolds was 19 when he won the Brownlow?

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
From what I've seen it would have to be Stephen Michael. In the same year when the likes of Maurice Rioli, the Krakouer brothers, Gary Buckenara and Simon Beazley headed to the VFL; Michael showed loyalty to his family and club by staying with South Fremantle. Geelong did everything they could to get him, all to no avail.

Other Western Australians who were dominant in their time who showed loyalty to their WAFL club by remaining in the WAFL (but played before I was able to see them) were the likes of Bill Walker (Swan Districts), Merv McIntosh (Perth), George Doig (East Fremantle), Jack Clarke (East Fremantle) and Mel Whinnen (West Perth).

Interestingly, Jack 'Stork' Clarke is quoted as saying the following when asked about players moving to play in the VFL: "I was never interested in going to Victoria. I was West Australian. Loyalty was most important in that era. No one shifted clubs or went to Victoria. The thing that induces players to change clubs is money - there wasn't any about when I played."

Also, John Todd won the Sandover medal in 1955 playing for South Fremantle aged 17 (seventeen) years old, but sustained a career ending knee injury during the following season. No doubt he was destined for great things. Has there ever been a younger player to win the fairest and best award for their league? I think **** Reynolds was 19 when he won the Brownlow?

Cheers for that. My step father-in-law is a mad South Fremantle fan (50+years now) and talks about Stephen Michael in the same way I talk about Barrie Robran. When talking about John Todd he said he "Could have been anything!" if it hadn't been for his knee injury. On the other hand my "grandmother-in-law" is a mad Swan Districts supporter and talks about Billy Walker like he was a living God.

I think you're right regarding Todd as well. The youngest Magarey winner is (from memory) Tony McGuiness and he was 18.And as you said Reynolds was 19.

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by McAlmanac
The bottom end of the comp is where the differences show up. I'm not sure Renz Bais, Bronte Mumford or Gary Bracegirdle would have got a game in the VFL.
...............

Or Doug Cox.......oh hang on.........;)

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by McAlmanac
The bottom end of the comp is where the differences show up. I'm not sure Renz Bais, Bronte Mumford or Gary Bracegirdle would have got a game in the VFL.

To answer the above question - Stephen Michael? How about Carl Fragomeni? ;)



Hang on there were clubs like..Footscray, Fitzroy, South Melbourne, St. Kilda, North Melbourne, Geelong...

Easily would have slotted into those line ups.

PA1870

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
I guess I was wrong in stating in my initial post that the AFL was a conglomeration of all three leagues, but one thing that has always annoyed me is how many Victorians (and the AFL) have always (arrogantly and unrightly) shown a lack of respect towards the WAFL and SANFL and their players.

Pre-1970, the WANFL and SANFL were all of a similar standard to the VFL, evidenced by WA winning the 1961 inter-league carnival and the close results between the three leagues in the inter-league carnivals up until 1975, despite Victoria winning them.

Post-1970, the WAFL and SANFL (and to a lesser extent, the TFL) were great resources to the VFL, where many of the best players in the VFL came from, as more players from WA and SA moved to play footy Victoria. Despite this, the WAFL and SANFL were still able to maintain a very high standard.

Whilst I'll agree the VFL has always been of a slightly higher standard than the WAFL and SANFL (with the gap increasing over time, as more players moved to play footy in Victoria), the quality of players produced by all three leagues has been very similar. This is evidenced by the close State of Origin results since 1977 and WA thrashing Victoria by 94 points to win the first ever State of Origin carnival.

Despite this, many Victorians have still shown a lack of respect to any league ourside Victoria. Proof of this is evidenced by the outrage that came from Victoria when Barrie Robran, who played all his footy in the SANFL with North Adelaide, was given Hall of Fame Legend status, and the reluctance of the AFL to promote players who only played in the WA(N)FL and SANFL to the Hall of Fame.

IMO, it's about time the AFL gave more recognition to the WA(N)FL* and SANFL.





*The WANFL changed its name to the WAFL in 1980*


I tips me lid to you Sir ! Your sentiments and perspective are not only refreshing, but also an unblinkered and unbiased perspective of our great national game.

The Current AFL would not have existed without the SANFL and WAFL leagues, yet the lack of respect shown to these great bastions of the game is extraordinary.

PA1870

[RoosterWedgie]

The AFL is the old VFL renamed, just because you give something a new name and invite some new teams doesn't mean it suddenly becomes a different competition. So only VFL historical records should count inthe AFL as its THE SAME COMPETITION.

You could say the VFL/AFL has progressed into a national competition due to many interstate teams now participating but SANFL, WAFL, QFL, etc records have no relevence in the VFL/AFL.
If I changed my name to Rocket Rooster my past history would still be as relevent as if I hadnt.

For a truly national competition to happen with appropriate league's historical records becoming applicable we needed the leagues such as the SANFL, WAFL, etc to unite and help create a new competition but unfortunately the WAFL sold out and with the help of Port Adelaide in the SANFL helped lose any leverage other state clubs may have had. Full marks to the VFL/AFL, their initiative (and underhanded dealings with teams such as Port) helped their league evolve into something massive and they were only worried about self preservation and rightly so
.
I feel sorry for teams like Norwood who were approached by the VFL to help their comp become bigger in the 80s but told the VFL to go through the right channels to create a new comp. Where has it got them for doing the right thing? nowhere
Where did it get Port for being underhanded? a team in the largest comp and ALSO a team in the 2nd largest comp.
Just shows you, nice guys finish last.

[McAlmanac]

Originally posted by RoosterWedgie
If I changed my name to Rocket Rooster....
What, it isn't you? ;)

[McAlmanac]

Originally posted by McAlmanac
The bottom end of the comp is where the differences show up. I'm not sure Renz Bais, Bronte Mumford or Gary Bracegirdle would have got a game in the VFL.

Originally posted by Port Adelaide 1870
Hang on there were clubs like..Footscray, Fitzroy, South Melbourne, St. Kilda, North Melbourne, Geelong...

Easily would have slotted into those line ups.

PA1870
You cannot be serious.

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Originally posted by McAlmanac
You cannot be serious.

Your right again Macca..How could I have ever expected Bronte to slot straight into North Melbournes team of the time...a decent preseason...would have definitely been required ..;)

PA1870

[|D_J^B_J|]

I found an article on a website this morning written by a Western Australian whose perspective on the national competition is similar to mine in the initial post. It was an interesting read, so I though I'd post it here. The important part of the article is highlighted in bold:



Greats of 61 explode a myth
By LES EVERET, 2002

NEXT Friday one of our great links with Queensland will be recalled at a lunch honouring the WA team that beat the Vics and won the Australian football championships in Brisbane in 1961.

It's part of the lead up to the game between WA and Queensland at Fremantle Oval on Saturday 15 June.

While we're focusing on this remarkable group of players, it's a good time to think about something we've let happen to WA football - more on that later.

It's not just the single triumph of the 1961 WA players that makes them interesting, it's their resonance. It's hard to imagine another group of footballers having such a lasting effect on the game for such a variety of reasons.

Let's look at just some of the players in question.

Graham "Polly" Farmer: When the Australian football hall of fame was inaugurated in 1996, Farmer was one of only 13 people immediately installed as a legend of the game.

John Todd: The youngest ever Sandover Medallist had his playing days cut short by injury but his coaching career, which began in 1959, won't draw to a close until the end of 2002.

Mal Atwell: The rugged East Perth defender came back to haunt his original club as captain-coach of the Perth premiership teams on 1966, 1967 and 1968.

Haydn Bunton: Coached Swan Districts to its first three premierships 1961-63 and later coached Subiaco to premierships in 1986 and 1988. Inducted into the hall of fame in 1996.

Denis Marshall: The stylish defender was a four time fairest and best at Claremont and a member (with Farmer) of Geelong's last premiership team in 1963.

Derek Chadwick: East Perth's games record holder and an exceptional player in state games. Also represented WA at cricket and was a member of the 1968/69 Sheffield Shield winning team. (I still have my Royals jumper with 22 on the back.)

Keith Slater: Ruckman who overcame Farmer to win the Simpson Medal in the 1961 grand final. Also played cricket for WA (for a while as Chadwick's opening batting partner) and Australia.

Ray Gabelich: Huge ruckman/defender from West Perth who is part of footy folklore for his amazing run and goal for Collingwood in the 1964 VFL grand final. Captain and fairest and best winner at Collingwood.

Jack Clarke: Exceptional East Fremantle ruckman, Sandover Medallist and four time All-Australian who was admitted to the hall of fame in 1998.

Ray Sorrell: Duel Sandover Medallist who caused a storm when he crossed from Old East to coach South Fremantle in 1964. A centreman of quality, balance and style.

Con Regan: Games record holder and dual premiership player at East Fremantle and the current team manager of the Dockers.

Norm Rogers: Member of the East Fremantle team of the century who captained and coached the blue and whites and played in two premiership teams.

John Gerovich: The mark he took in the 1956 preliminary final has become the most recognisable symbol of WA football. A spectacular and much-loved footballer.

Bob "Dobbie" Graham: A back pocket specialist when the position was different and he had to match it with resting rovers like Cable and Walker. Noted for kicking the ball into the crowd before the out-on-the-full rule was brought in.

Don Williams: A member of Melbourne premiership teams in 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1959, this brilliant player was at his peak when he joined West Perth in 1960 and played in a premiership for the Cardinals that year. He later returned to Melbourne and celebrated his fifth VFL premiership in 1964. Williams was named in Melbourne's team of the century.

Time prevents more recognition here for John Dethridge, Les Mumme and Barry Metcalfe (Claremont); Ken Holt (East Fremantle), Dennis Barron (Subiaco), Ken Bagley and John Turnbull (Swan Districts), Joe "Golden Boot" Fanchi (West Perth) or John Colgan (South Fremantle) and Neville Beard (Perth) who missed the trip because of injury.

The team was coached by another hall of fame member Jack Sheedy. And what does all this have to do with the present?

When WA entered the expanded VFL in 1987, a myth was created and it endures. The myth is that the feats of players who played in the VFL before then are connected to the new national competition but those of players in the WAFL and SANFL are not.

The truth is, up until the expansion of the VFL there were three elite competitions in Australian Rules football. Historically Victorian football was stronger than that in WA and SA but how could anyone claim the VFL was the elite competition when, in a year like 1961, players like those mentioned above were playing elsewhere?

The problem with this distortion of history is that our kids grow up thinking, for example, that only five players have kicked over 1000 goals in top level football. In fact, no one has kicked 1000 AFL goals, Jason Dunstall and Tony Lockett kicked many in the VFL when it was equivalent to the WAFL and SANFL. The feats of WA's George Doig, Bernie Naylor, Austin Robertson, Ted Tyson and SA's Ken Farmer (the greatest goal scorer of all time) and Tim Evans are pushed to one side.

It's the same story when it comes to the number of games individuals are credited with having played but I hope the point has been made.

This isn't an anti-Victorian rant. Nothing was stolen from us - we gave our history away.

But it's not too late to claim it back.


http://www.australianrules.com.au/2002stories/carnival61.html

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
Cheers for that. My step father-in-law is a mad South Fremantle fan (50+years now) and talks about Stephen Michael in the same way I talk about Barrie Robran. When talking about John Todd he said he "Could have been anything!" if it hadn't been for his knee injury. On the other hand my "grandmother-in-law" is a mad Swan Districts supporter and talks about Billy Walker like he was a living God.

Interesting, your father-in-law and grandmother-in-law supported different teams and idolized different footballers.

Other than Robran, who do you think was the best South Australian to never play VFL?

[Uncle Steve]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
Other than Robran, who do you think was the best South Australian to never play VFL?
This question is worthy of a thread in itself. In fact, I might just start one now...

[killer]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
From what I've seen it would have to be Stephen Michael. In the same year when the likes of Maurice Rioli, the Krakouer brothers, Gary Buckenara and Simon Beazley headed to the VFL; Michael showed loyalty to his family and club by staying with South Fremantle. Geelong did everything they could to get him, all to no avail.



Maurice is territorian

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by killer
Maurice is territorian

Yeah, he was born in the NT but I'm pretty sure he spent the majority of his childhood in WA, making him eligible to play for WA in State of Origin.

[Leaping Lindner]

Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
Interesting, your father-in-law and grandmother-in-law supported different teams and idolized different footballers.

Other than Robran, who do you think was the best South Australian to never play VFL?

It's like family feud.....

Wife's Mother and Step Father - South Freo
Wife's Father - East Perth (but played one game for Claremont:confused: )
Wife's G/Mother - Swan Districts
Wife - East Perth
(My wife's grandfather Percy Jean-Louis played a handful of games for South Freo in 1927).

I won't even begin to explain the Dockers/Eagles split:D

My wife's grandmother also loves John Todd due to "three certain years" in 1980's.

As a matter of interest Haydn Bunton Jr started his league career at North Adelaide, and was runner up in 1956 Magarey playing for us.

[GoalsFrom50Out]

Originally posted by DaveW
Just out of interest - when did the SANFL and WANFL insert the N into the competition name?

edit: Going by Mobbs earlier post it was 1927 for the SANFL? Same year for the WANFL?

SAFL became the SANFL in '27, correct. I can't find the year for the WANFL/WAFL on Mobbs' site :(

[Mobbenfuhrer]

No I don't have it ... this wa the first I have heard of the term WANFL! :o

[GoalsFrom50Out]

FullPointsFooty.net has the competition listed as WANFL/WAFL, like on East Perth's (http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/East_Perth.htm) section at the top.

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by Leaping Lindner
It's like family feud.....

Wife's Mother and Step Father - South Freo
Wife's Father - East Perth (but played one game for Claremont:confused: )
Wife's G/Mother - Swan Districts
Wife - East Perth
(My wife's grandfather Percy Jean-Louis played a handful of games for South Freo in 1927).

Ahh, that makes a bit more sense. Being an East Fremantle supporter I just found it hard to believe how any normal human being would allow their children to support South Fremantle. ;)

As a matter of interest Haydn Bunton Jr started his league career at North Adelaide, and was runner up in 1956 Magarey playing for us.

Yep, IIRC he also captain-coached Norwood at age 19 and captain-coached Swan Districts to three premierships. I think he started his career at North Adelaide, then moved to Norwood at age 19 to become captain coach. After a few years he moved to WA to captain-coach Swans where he won three premierships, then moved back to SA to play for Norwood again, and moved back to WA to finish his playing career at Subiaco.

One of the famous football pictures taken was showing Hayden Bunton Jr with a bloodied face after Swan Districts won the 1961 WAFL premiership:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~dare/wafl/images/bunton.jpg

[|D_J^B_J|]

Originally posted by GoalsFrom50Out
FullPointsFooty.net has the competition listed as WANFL/WAFL, like on East Perth's (http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/East_Perth.htm) section at the top.

The WAFL definitely used to be called the WANFL. It changed its name from the WANFL back to the WAFL in 1980. It should be in the chronology section of fullpointsfooty.net ?

EDIT: Just checked, according to the chronology section of www.fullpointsfooty.net, the SAFL changed its named to the SANFL in 1927 and the WAFL changed its name to the WANFL in 1932. The WANFL then changed its name back to the WAFL in 1980.

[Still Crowing]

I agree fully.

It's just the little things you know? Example: Johnny Platten gets inducted into the Australian Football Hall of Fame. Fair enough, the guy deserves it and is a legend of the game. But no where in his bio for the awarding of the honour do they mention that he won the Magarey, and played 4 (?) years for Centrals in the SANFL, coming across to Hawthorn a ready made player. Now, I can hear some saying that they are only recognising his VFL/AFL career. But when you set yourself up as the elite national football competition, and you create a hall of fame for 'Australian Rules Football', not just VFL/AFL (otherwise how did Robran, B get in), it is downright disrespecful not to mention Plattens prior history in a competition that was notionally the equal of the VFL.

Surely it cant take all that much effort to recognise officially that football did exist in WA prior to 1987 and SA prior to 1991.

[DaveW]

Agreed Still Crowing - I was a bit miffed that they didn't have Platten's magarey medal in his list of honours in the Hall of Fame edition of the Football record.