View Full Version : 2nd Test Squad additions
bluechampion
13 Oct 2003, 13:22
With Gillespie out and an injury cloud over MacGill and Lehmann, the selectors have bolstered the squad with Brad Hogg, Simon Katich and Nathan Bracken.
Hogg is clearly the second spinner in Australia, no issue there.
Katich has come out of the blue, but the batting all-rounder tag is fair enough. Interesting that they think of Lehmann that way... But I mighty have thought there were a few more in-form batsmen who deserved a look-in.
But Bracken?! Why? Matthew Innes is twice the the bowler (in the long form of the game) than he is! If they're looking for a lefty, they could look further than just NSW!
More NSW bias?
Cupido13
13 Oct 2003, 13:27
Originally posted by bluechampion
With Gillespie out and an injury cloud over MacGill and Lehmann, the selectors have bolstered the squad with Brad Hogg, Simon Katich and Nathan Bracken.
Hogg is clearly the second spinner in Australia, no issue there.
Katich has come out of the blue, but the batting all-rounder tag is fair enough. Interesting that they think of Lehmann that way... But I mighty have thought there were a few more in-form batsmen who deserved a look-in.
But Bracken?! Why? Matthew Innes is twice the the bowler (in the long form of the game) than he is! If they're looking for a lefty, they could look further than just NSW!
More NSW bias?
Katich's ability to bowl wrist spin would be the reason he is in the side. Has played Test cricket fairly recently (in the last 2 years) not sure how he is such a big surprise. Bracken, Innes, Craig McDermott, who cares, they are only going to be 12th man.
Bracken has clearly been chosen on his form leading into this match. He has just ripped through the Queensland Academy of Sport top order playing for the NSW 2nd XI.
Cupido13
13 Oct 2003, 13:40
Originally posted by wang
Bracken has clearly been chosen on his form leading into this match. He has just ripped through the Queensland Academy of Sport top order playing for the NSW 2nd XI.
That is probably a good judge then, cos I would say that that standard of game is probably around about the level that the Zimbo's are at!
Jars458
13 Oct 2003, 13:47
I thought Shane Watson would have been a better long term prospect for either the batting or more likely the bowling spot
A good chance to develop him against a team like Zimbabwe
Hopefully Boof comes up though and Katich doesn't need to play.
There will be 5 Western Australians in the team and if you count Katich that makes 6.
the fly
13 Oct 2003, 13:54
If you count Katich as a Western Australian, then you should count Brad Williams as a Victorian, Gilchrist as a New South Welshman, and Martyn and a Northern Territorian.
slyolddog
13 Oct 2003, 13:56
The NSW mafia strike again
Surprised they haven't given Cameron White some exposure. Even though at 20 he'd be pretty green, a game against Zimbabwe would be good for his continued development.
Cupido13
13 Oct 2003, 13:57
Originally posted by slyolddog
The NSW mafia strike again
I understand that there have been a lot of New South Welshman in the Test and ODI sides recently, but, if you are so knowledgable in all things cricket, care to run me through a few of the guys who were picked when they should not have been?
dover56
13 Oct 2003, 14:36
simon clarke, bracken, anthony stuart, phil emery, gavin robertson, just to name a few.
and mark taylor and steve and mark waugh being carried each for 12 months plus when dean jones was dropped after averaging 80 in a series.
katich obviously realised that to get a test spot needed to move to nsw, so good for him
4/5 day cricket inness is much better than bracken as are another about 6 to ten bowlers in oz
Originally posted by Jars458
I thought Shane Watson would have been a better long term prospect for either the batting or more likely the bowling spot
Isn't he still injured,or at least unable to bowl at the moment ?
Russian
13 Oct 2003, 15:31
I'll admit i'm a huge wrap for Cameron White (captain after Ponting) but his stats for the CA Cup game last week: 59, 4/60, 87, 3/88. Why 2 left arm wrist spinners, surely you'd rather have 1 left arm and 1 right arm. My line up:
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Martyn
Waugh
Gilchrist
White
Hogg
Bichel
Williams
Bracken - only ahead of Noffke because he's a left armer
No point playing Lehmann if he has any injury doubt. Give Lee a rest with the tour of India coming up and no McGrath and possibly Gillespie for this tour. It's more important than a test match against Zimbabwe
Also rest Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, Gilchrist if there's any niggles for any of them
slyolddog
13 Oct 2003, 15:43
Originally posted by Cupido13
I understand that there have been a lot of New South Welshman in the Test and ODI sides recently, but, if you are so knowledgable in all things cricket, care to run me through a few of the guys who were picked when they should not have been?
Bracken
Emery
Robertson
Cook
Stuart
S. Lee
Haddin
Higgs
goaldrush
13 Oct 2003, 15:58
Brad Hogg and Brad Williams I think should be in the 2nd test up at the SCG.
Id rather see Nathan Hauritz get a game rather than Cameron White. Australia already has 3 leg spinners that are currently rated above him, while Australia doesn't have well recognised off spinner. Hauritz has a lot of potential like White, but we already have a few leg spinners. Hauritz could be handy on the sub continent in the near future.
Cupido13
13 Oct 2003, 16:53
Originally posted by dover56
simon clarke, bracken, anthony stuart, phil emery, gavin robertson, just to name a few.
and mark taylor and steve and mark waugh being carried each for 12 months plus when dean jones was dropped after averaging 80 in a series.
katich obviously realised that to get a test spot needed to move to nsw, so good for him
4/5 day cricket inness is much better than bracken as are another about 6 to ten bowlers in oz
Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh and Mark Taylor being carried is a ridiculous statement, I don't think Dean Jones should have been dropped, but, that is a seperate issue to what we are talking about here.
Simon Clarke, I don't know who that is? Anthony Stuart took a ODI hat trick and 5 wickets in his second game, not a bad effort I reckon. Who was the wicketkeeper batsmen better than Emery when he was picked? Robertson was the best finger spinner in Australia for years, and proved it on the tour of India where he was the only penetrative bowler, bar none. Katich was well on the Australian scene before his move and was actually still a Warriors player when he played his first and to date, only, Test.
Onto the Mark Waugh argument, in the last 12 months he played Test cricket, his batting average was actually higher than anyone bar Matt Hayden and Adam Gilchrist.
Mark Taylor, that is a ridiculous comment, as his last 12 months were probably as good as any that he experienced, yes, he did have that terrible patch in between, but, the team was winning and he was the captain, hard to change.
And, Steve Waugh, you must be joking.
Cupido13
13 Oct 2003, 17:09
Originally posted by slyolddog
Bracken
Emery
Robertson
Cook
Stuart
S. Lee
Haddin
Higgs
Lee and Higgs both temporarily filled the spot that is always filled by ordinary players in Australian cricket, the All Rounder spot. And, if I am not mistaken, Higgs didn't really last that long. Lee on the other hand actually did some promising things, but, was never quite good enough.
Haddin was the obvious choice and probably still is as the back up keeper, toss up between he and Ryan Campbell, but at the time that Haddin was in, Campbell was struggling for runs and his spot for WA.
Already answered the Stuart, Robertson, Emery ones and Simon Cook did well, if my memory serves me correctly taking 5 wickets on debut, so, that choice can't really be questioned.
I am assuming that both of you people are Victorians who only watch domestic cricket when Victoria is playing.
If you would care to tell me who should have played instead of those players mentioned above, and give me some reasons why I would be more than happy to retract my statements.
GoEagles
13 Oct 2003, 19:36
Originally posted by pazza
Surprised they haven't given Cameron White some exposure. Even though at 20 he'd be pretty green, a game against Zimbabwe would be good for his continued development.
Is this the same Cameron White who was 12th man for one of Victoria's one day game last summer?
I can accept Hogg as McGill's replacement, but I am very suprised that Love wasn't considered over Katich.
I think the idea of having Katich is that he can be the 2nd spinner should lehmann not play. Love on batting alone is miles ahead of Katich.
Bomber Spirit
13 Oct 2003, 20:53
Bracken's there as a drinks waiter, and Brad Williams should go into the team if Dizzy's injured. Can't argue with Brad Hogg coming in as the spinner; but I'm surprised Katich got the gig ahead of Michael Clarke. Clarke was picked ahead of Katich for the West Indies tour, something must have changed during the off-season.
Originally posted by pazza
Surprised they haven't given Cameron White some exposure. Even though at 20 he'd be pretty green, a game against Zimbabwe would be good for his continued development. White is overrated. Katich is a much better batsman and bowler.
Demon37
13 Oct 2003, 23:45
Originally posted by Jars458
I thought Shane Watson would have been a better long term prospect for either the batting or more likely the bowling spot
A good chance to develop him against a team like Zimbabwe
Hopefully Boof comes up though and Katich doesn't need to play.
There will be 5 Western Australians in the team and if you count Katich that makes 6.
I do agree, but Watson is still injured. :(
dogga16
14 Oct 2003, 00:07
Originally posted by DaveW
White is overrated. Katich is a much better batsman and bowler.
ohhh really. Obvioulsly haven't seen much of him. Will be an Australian star. Is a very good "developing" batsmen and rapidly improving.
Laughable how Bracken gets a gig. Inness is a much better wicket taking bowler than Bracken. Victoria need a national selector immediately
Originally posted by bluechampion
Hogg is clearly the second spinner in Australia, no issue there.
If that's true, that's a sad indictment on the current quality of Australia's spin bowlers.
Originally posted by dogga16
ohhh really. Obvioulsly haven't seen much of him. Will be an Australian star. Is a very good "developing" batsmen and rapidly improving. He hasn't done a thing in state cricket.
Laughable how Bracken gets a gig. Inness is a much better wicket taking bowler than Bracken. Victoria need a national selector immediately Agreed.
slyolddog
14 Oct 2003, 01:35
White
16 matches - 39 wickets @ 31.84
Hogg
69 matches - 102 wickets @ 42.72
Katich
100 matches - 56 wickets @ 37.46
White done nothing in state cricket :rolleyes: , done so little Victoria made him their captain for 2003/04
Bracken - only ahead of Noffke because he's a left armer
I got the impression that Noffke was ahead of Bracken in the selectors thinking, but because he is injured (just came back from England with shin splints or something) he wasn't available.
It would seem that the selectors won't try any young/new players until crisis time really hits and three or four players retire around the same time...
Originally posted by slyolddog
White
16 matches - 39 wickets @ 31.84
Hogg
69 matches - 102 wickets @ 42.72
Katich
100 matches - 56 wickets @ 37.46 White's going to have to do a bit better than nearly 32 runs a wicket to convince me.
Hogg is rubbish and Katich's bowling has only come on the last season.
White done nothing in state cricket :rolleyes: , done so little Victoria made him their captain for 2003/04 That says more about Victoria than it does about White. And he's only the one-day captain anyway. Should I reel out White's embarassingly poor one-day statistics?
Cupido13
14 Oct 2003, 08:19
I am yet to be convinced of Cameron White's star status and I have seen a hell of a lot of him. You just have to look at his performances in district cricket and he doesn't even dominate that to prove that he is a long way off being the star he is made out to be. I am not saying he will not become that star, he just isn't there yet. And, don't bother mentioning his batting, that is yet to fire a shot in first class cricket. Now, I know he can bat, but, when he actually starts making first class runs then you can use that argument.
Most people here seem to have a negitive attitude towards Hogg. Why is this? From ive seen of him in the last 12 months, he impressed me greatly. Rather than just reply and say he is s**t, give some reasons as to why this is the case.
dr nick
14 Oct 2003, 10:41
Originally posted by wang
Most people here seem to have a negitive attitude towards Hogg. Why is this? From ive seen of him in the last 12 months, he impressed me greatly. Rather than just reply and say he is s**t, give some reasons as to why this is the case.
he explained why white did not impress, and you look at hoggs stats and they are even worse.
anyway, it is obvious you have not been around the boards very long if you expect people to validate their opinions with hard facts :)
Im not after hard facts. Just something more than saying hes s**t.
bluechampion
14 Oct 2003, 12:03
Dave W -
Bracken - Innes (first-class figures)
BRACKEN
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 943.4 263 2497 85 29.37 5-22 3 0 66.6 2.64
INNES
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 1694.2 486 4686 191 24.53 7-19 7 2 53.2 2.76
Innes has more experience, and a significantly better average. Innes also leads the Vic attack (and has taken more than twice the wickets). Bracken is a change bowler.
Emery - Seccombe / Berry
Emery was a slightly better batsman than Berry and a slightly better keeper than Seccombe (at the time). Berry is by far the best keeper in the land (IMO) and was in his prime.
Robertson
Not much to say about this, except the selectors frequently preferred to pick a NSW spinner out of district cricket ahead of giving anyone else a chance.
Cook
Inconsistent and injury prone. I forget the circumstances. I believe that both Fleming and Reiffel were injured.
SIMON COOK
Test Debut: Australia v New Zealand at Perth, 2nd Test, 1997/98
Latest Test: Australia v New Zealand at Hobart, 3rd Test, 1997/98
TESTS
(including 27/11/1997)
O M R W Ave BBI 5 10 SR Econ
Bowling 37.2 10 142 7 20.28 5-39 1 0 32.0 3.80
Hardly inspiring figures. He averaged 30.82 at first class level. I believe both Bichel (24.27) and Kasprowicz (26.00) were available.
Stuart -
He has pretty good figures. A career ruined by injury.
S. Lee -
Yeah, we lack all-rounders and Lee wasn't a bad one. the only other option at the time was Brendon Julian (*groan*).
Haddin - Campbell
It's a sad state of affairs if Haddin is the back-up keeper. Seccombe is still five times the keeper, and a reasonable batsman. The selectors have very narrow vision sometimes.
Higgs -
Shocking. Brad Young is a better cricketer.
I have no particular issue with the Waugh's or Taylor.
Basically, the grievance many non-NSW cricket-followers have is the fact that the selectors will go for average NSW cricketers before giving anyone else a go.
The currect series against Zimbabwe is an example of this. Bracken is a known quantity. He knows what being part of the team is, and has performed well on the ODI stage. Why not blood a new player? Give someone like Innes an indication that he's in the selectors sights? See how he reacts to being part of the test-squad?
Hogg is next in line, but against Zimbabwe, and with the future in mind (planning for the next era must start today) why not throw White or Hauritz in at the deep end? They have comparable figures and need experience. Now, yes, Hogg isn't a NSWelshman, but it's this very conservative philosophy that's resulting in average NSW players being picked before anyone else.
ViperV10
14 Oct 2003, 12:49
The forgotten man seems to be Michael Clarke...superb with the bat...developing his spin bowling. Katich doesn't strike me as being anywhere near as good as Clarke in the batting dept. Hi bowling may be better...but Clarke is youth...something we need to develop if we are going to be competitive in the future. I would have said Clarke was about Lehmann's level at bowling...and we all know he can bat.
The Spornstar
14 Oct 2003, 12:59
Originally posted by Cupido13
And, Steve Waugh, you must be joking.
I wouldn't say Steve Waugh's been carried recently, but between 85 and the Ashes tour of 89 he was. How many tests did it take him to score a century?
Let's not forget another name, Wayne Holdsworth. How he got picked on that 93 Ashes tour (ahead of Reiffel or even Dodemaide) I'll never know.
slyolddog
14 Oct 2003, 14:43
Originally posted by Cupido13
I am yet to be convinced of Cameron White's star status and I have seen a hell of a lot of him. You just have to look at his performances in district cricket and he doesn't even dominate that to prove that he is a long way off being the star he is made out to be.
White is the leading wicket taker in district cricket this year so far
dr nick
14 Oct 2003, 15:15
Originally posted by The Spornstar
I wouldn't say Steve Waugh's been carried recently, but between 85 and the Ashes tour of 89 he was. How many tests did it take him to score a century?
lets not also forget he was an allrounder taking wickets and getting 50's.
roostersgal4eva
14 Oct 2003, 15:46
My Line-Up (no particuar order)
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Martyn
Waugh
Gilchrist
Hogg
Lee/White
Bichel
Williams
Bracken
even if mcgill was right id wouldnt risk it with india just around the corner.
id look at the possibility at having 5 bowlers and six batsman for this test IMHO to give our bowers extra help with all those injuries!
btw - have many of you seen enough of SA's Paul Roffe to pass judgement???
personally he is a rung behind Williams and Bracken (experiance wise) but he has shown potential to be a future choice in our 11
Originally posted by The Spornstar
Let's not forget another name, Wayne Holdsworth. How he got picked on that 93 Ashes tour (ahead of Reiffel or even Dodemaide) I'll never know. Reiffel went on that tour.
Kid Dynamite!
14 Oct 2003, 16:02
Originally posted by Demon37
I do agree, but Watson is still injured. :(
Unfortunately you're spot on. :( He's still at the Cricket Academy over here in Adelaide. He really came on in the World Cup (I think he played in it.. or have I got my wires crossed?) and I was looking forward to seeing more of him this summer but then he did his back again.
slyolddog
14 Oct 2003, 16:40
Originally posted by DaveW
Reiffel went on that tour.
Reiffel was called up early in the tour when somebody broke down (McDermott I think)
Originally posted by Kid Dynamite!
Unfortunately you're spot on. :( He's still at the Cricket Academy over here in Adelaide. He really came on in the World Cup (I think he played in it.. or have I got my wires crossed?) and I was looking forward to seeing more of him this summer but then he did his back again.
Watto didn't play at all in the World Cup. He played a few midly good games in the VB Series last year, but nothing overly impressive.
Robertson - Not much to say about this, except the selectors frequently preferred to pick a NSW spinner out of district cricket ahead of giving anyone else a chance.
And now he gets a run as SBS's cricket commentator. He's gone a long way...
The Spornstar
14 Oct 2003, 17:54
Originally posted by DaveW
Reiffel went on that tour.
Only once McDermott got injured. He then went on to top the bowling averages.
Putting the Vic-NSW argument aside for a moment, I think it's a bit early to be selecting Cameron White. He definitely has potential, and his improvement is incredible, but at this stage I think he'd be unlikely to pick up test wickets.
Watson or Noffke would be obvious choices if they were fit. I think Watson's on track to play in Tasmania's first game. Katich is a good choice, but I'd still go with Michael Clarke. He looks ready - at least on the games I've seen him play.
Williams will replace Gillespie, and Hogg (I suppose) will replace McGill. It seriously lowers the quality of our bowling department. I'd prefer Bracken, if only to see how he goes against mid-to-low quality opposition. If we're going to have to replace these fast bowlers permanently (soon-ish; McGrath and Bichel can't last forever), it's time to find out what we have to work with.
the fly
14 Oct 2003, 21:33
Reiffel was selected in the original squad in 1993. It was 1997 when he missed out on selection, and got called up when Andy Bichel broke down with a back injury.
The Spornstar
15 Oct 2003, 09:32
Originally posted by the fly
Reiffel was selected in the original squad in 1993.
I'm 99% sure he got called up once McDermott got injured.
Love what Hookesy says in this article:
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,7563424%255E2882,00.html
"As I've said many times, when they give out the baggy blue cap in NSW, they give you a baggy green in a brown paper bag as well to save making two presentations," Hookes said. :p
Jars458
15 Oct 2003, 10:28
Its clear to me that Hauritz is a better bowler than Hogg but the Aussie want a leg spinner.
John Davison is a better bowler than Hogg in my opinion.
What happened to Peter McIntyre anyway?:D ;)
Originally posted by Jars458
Its clear to me that Hauritz is a better bowler than Hogg but the Aussie want a leg spinner.
I think you mean wrist spinner. Hogg bowls left arm chinamen ie into the right hander rather than from leg to off (as per Right arm leggies).
GoEagles
16 Oct 2003, 16:02
Originally posted by Mog
And now he gets a run as SBS's cricket commentator. He's gone a long way...
I didn't even know that SBS commentated the cricket!
manmountain
16 Oct 2003, 16:49
Originally posted by Cupido13
I am yet to be convinced of Cameron White's star status and I have seen a hell of a lot of him. You just have to look at his performances in district cricket and he doesn't even dominate that to prove that he is a long way off being the star he is made out to be. I am not saying he will not become that star, he just isn't there yet. And, don't bother mentioning his batting, that is yet to fire a shot in first class cricket. Now, I know he can bat, but, when he actually starts making first class runs then you can use that argument.
90 on debut is pretty impressive for a bloke that can't bat then. If he had made 90 in a 3rd XI club match in Sydney the selectors would have tagged him as "the next big thing".
Cupido13
20 Oct 2003, 13:40
Originally posted by manmountain
90 on debut is pretty impressive for a bloke that can't bat then. If he had made 90 in a 3rd XI club match in Sydney the selectors would have tagged him as "the next big thing".
I said, I know he can bat, but, his figures don't support that arguement yet. And, making up statistics to support your argument is a pretty silly thing to do. Cameron White made his first class debut against NSW, not SA, and made 11, not 90. The 91 that he made was against SA.
Unwritten_Law
20 Oct 2003, 15:08
To clear up the situation on Watson:
* He didn't play in the world cup.
* He will play for Tasmania as a batsman only until he starts bowling again in January.
Freo Big Fella
26 Oct 2003, 18:35
Originally posted by Kid Dynamite!
Unfortunately you're spot on. :( He's still at the Cricket Academy over here in Adelaide. He really came on in the World Cup (I think he played in it.. or have I got my wires crossed?) and I was looking forward to seeing more of him this summer but then he did his back again.
He made a pretty bloody good effort in that game against the Sri-Lankans where Jayasuria and Da Silva were flogging us all over the place, he ended up with 4 or 5 wickets from memory.