View Full Version : It's Official....Lions Hierarchy have lost the Plot [Old thread from 2003]
Maverick
14 Oct 2003, 21:15
Can I firstly say that Matthews is not mentally sane enough to be in the position of trading players.....this is the bloke that wanted to axe Akermanis at the end of 98.
The Club has got to take the blinkers off. They can see no further than 2004.
Why the hell would you trade the Possum who has another 10 years of football ahead of him....whilst retaining Hart who has 1 year ahead of him.
Maverick
14 Oct 2003, 21:34
The Possum was a handy player off the bench in the 01 & 02 GFs.
Has a bad injury, and fails to recapture form, and they offload him.
Hold onto six 30 plus year olds...not taking a real long term view is it.
We'll be a basket case of a club in 3 years.
SpecialBruce
14 Oct 2003, 22:00
Hey Maverick! Welcome back. Do you know what, I agree with you believe it or not.
Now Notting was ****ed around with while he was here. He played the majority of games on the bench and if he had a full game on the wing, he would be a star. Lack of confidence because he was hardly used. He was playing well at the start of the year and was dropped. He was dropped ahead of players who were playing poor at that stage. Ashcroft, White and Akermanis who was carrying a groin injury at that stage. As a result, he got injured and that's what has ruined his future for us. So it will be good to see him played elsewhere because he deserves a chance to have a full game, to get confidence back and play well. He has that ability and he can do it another club. But, getting rid of him in the long term is a mistake.
I think the club should try and convince White at least to retire. I mean he struggled this year and only had a handful of good games near the end of the season. He will be playing reserves for most the year next year if he stays on because I don't see him being cut up for another season of football. We could develop someone like Gram or Brennan in that position.
Do you know what? Gram might be traded. That is pathetic if you ask me. He is like 19 years old and he's going to get traded.
We have McRae who said he will most likely retire after we win the flag this year. He was thinking about it at the end of 2001. People may disagree with what I am about to say, but he should retire and we develop someone like Gram in that position. But it could be good if he plays on.
Lynch is demanding more money. Now whilst he probably deserves more money, players like that at that age shouldn't be at the club. We can develop someone else in the FF position. Maybe see what Bradshaw has to offer at FF for a few weeks if Lynch doesn't re-sign with the club for next year.
I mean, we are losing players like McLaren, Gram, Shattock (possibility), Notting and we are keeping 4 players who probably will have 1 year left and these players mentioned have like 6 - 10 years left.
Pike can go on because he has a 2 good years to offer us.
This time is the time that if the Club ****s up, we'll be a basket case again for a few years in a few years time. I think we need to start rebuilding now. We may have the players at the end of next year to cover these players, but Gram and Notting have talent and Notting's talent was never fully utilised by the club.
White should definately retire. Hart I believe should stay on and possibly McRae. We will get a full 22 games out of Hart next year whereas I'm predicting now, if White plays on, he will not play over 10 games for us next year and will most likely finish his career in the reserves. Similar to Champion.
We have Ashcroft who has retired. IMO for the future of the club that is not enough. We need to start introducing young players in at a time.
I mean, think of the retirements at the end of next year.
Lynch, McRae, Hart, White, and possibly Pike.
Who do we expect to replace them with in 2005? Players who have played less than 10 games who are 19 - 20 years old? If that's the case then we are stuffed.
We need an even spread of retirements over this year and next and having bulk retirements will stuff us up. I will be happy if 2 more players announce their retirements in the next few weeks because for the good of the club, we need 2 more retirements IMO.
Tigerbob
15 Oct 2003, 02:15
You guys just one three premierships in a row and are complaining....
Man i wish i was in your position.
Hey SB, don't you think they have done a good job until now?
How many premierships have you coached?
Have a little faith.
IMO you rate the Possum to highly, an okay player in a very good side. Have a real good look at they way he plays, little defensive skills, no accountability, doesn't think clearly at times and turns the ball over on a regular basis.
cjwalkley
15 Oct 2003, 10:34
I think apart from one or two 'alleged' decisions, the Lions administration is on the right track. Look at each player in a case by case scenario:
Darryl White - I would guess that the Lions would like DJ to retire, however he has one year left on his contract, and the decision is his. If DJ wanted to play on and the Lions delisted him, then we would be pinged for his salary in the 2004 salary cap. An idea I would float is to make him captain and assistant coach of the reserves, utilise as they did Michael McLean after his retirement. With a couple of NT boys coming through, he would be invaluable for the club in that role. The Lions could then pay him the same as his contracted amount. Would be dangerous to force such a popular clubman out if he didn't want to go.
Tim Notting - Handy footballer who hasn't stepped up when required. He has all the attacking skills in the world, but hasn't delivered anywhere near enough. He struggles defensively, and with the form and versatility that Shattock showed this year, is not in the Lions top 25. Might as well get some value for him at this stage.
Shaun Hart - had a great year this year and plays the endurance style tagger role as well as anyone in the league. Can also fill the defensive forward role if McRae retires. Fills gaps in the midfiled and an ideal time for his final year as we get Selwood into the midfield.
Jason Gram - would be disappointed to lose him. He showed enough in his senior appearances to suggest a good senior future at the club, however the lure of his homestate and a perceived lack of opportunities could be the breaking point. The Lions should do everything possible to hold on to Gram.
Craig McRae - might be a good time for Fly to hang up the boots. He has been a popular and loyal clubman, and has filled a role for the Lions as a defensive forward that is hugely important. With the development of McGrath and Hadley, he is no longer as critical as he was, and can be adequately replaced. Yet again though it is very dangerous to force out such a popular player.
Alistair Lynch - Hopefully we get one more year out of Lynchy. Merrett isn't quite ready for constant senior football, and Morrison looks to be moving to greener pastures. He is definitely up to it, and should go around again.
Martin Pike - Definitely a required player. Fills gaps as required and close to the best utility player in the AFL. Is also a bargain basement price which also helps.
Lady Lawrence
15 Oct 2003, 11:04
Originally posted by cjwalkley
Martin Pike - Definitely a required player. Fills gaps as required and close to the best utility player in the AFL. Is also a bargain basement price which also helps.
Was told he is a "required player" but is being screwed on contract. Another one not happy with the offer he has been made and will not sign unless it is reviewed.
adey115
15 Oct 2003, 12:26
5 finals series in a row.
3 premierships in a row.
3 current player brownlow medallists.
yep those in charge of coaching and recruiting at our club have no idea what they are doing at all.
(looks at those around him who are whinging, shakes head, walks away quietly)
Disgustipated
15 Oct 2003, 12:40
Originally posted by Maverick
Can I firstly say that Matthews is not mentally sane enough to be in the position of trading players.....this is the bloke that wanted to axe Akermanis at the end of 98.
I'm certain King was one of the players Lethal was keen on moulding into a great player...and he did
blackers
15 Oct 2003, 17:44
Originally posted by Maverick
Can I firstly say that Matthews is not mentally sane enough to be in the position of trading players
Never happy, are you Mav? Come on mate, after five seasons in the top eight and three premierships in his time at the club, I have decided that Leigh Matthews and Kinnear Beatson deserve a small amount of faith on my part.
SpecialBruce
15 Oct 2003, 18:26
Originally posted by virdis
IMO you rate the Possum to highly, an okay player in a very good side. Have a real good look at they way he plays, little defensive skills, no accountability, doesn't think clearly at times and turns the ball over on a regular basis.
Do you even support the club?
Notting has barely been given a chance hence why his confidence is so down. Earlier on in the year he was playing well and was dropped for no apparent reason. Then he got an injury in that game in the reserves. His confidence has never come back because he was dropped when he was playing good. If he was given a chance and given 4 full quarters across the half back line, half forward line or wing, after a few games, you will then see why he is a good player. If we trade him, I guarantee wherever he goes, he'll have a bloody awesome year.
Originally posted by Maverick
Can I firstly say that Matthews is not mentally sane enough to be in the position of trading players.....this is the bloke that wanted to axe Akermanis at the end of 98.
The Club has got to take the blinkers off. They can see no further than 2004.
Why the hell would you trade the Possum who has another 10 years of football ahead of him....whilst retaining Hart who has 1 year ahead of him.
The title of the thread should have read
"INSANE COACH LANDS 3 IN A ROW!!!!!"
Well you know what they say Mav....there's a thin line between genius and insanity.
Originally posted by SpecialBruce
Do you even support the club?
You're way outta line on that one SB.
It's not a prerequisite of supporting the club that one must necessarily have identical views as you about individual players.
Virdis is entitled to his opinion and gave reasons for it.
Why attack his loyalty because his opinion of a player differs to yours?
rchowell
16 Oct 2003, 09:17
Gram has been traded to St Kilda for a 2nd round draft pick. A FRIGGIN 2ND ROUND DRAFT PICK. Talk about being majorly ripped off :mad: Yes Mav, it's official. Brisbane has lost the plot. That 3 years you spoke of may yet be 1 or 2 :o
blackers
16 Oct 2003, 10:13
Originally posted by rchowell
Gram has been traded to St Kilda for a 2nd round draft pick. A FRIGGIN 2ND ROUND DRAFT PICK. Talk about being majorly ripped off :mad: Yes Mav, it's official. Brisbane has lost the plot. That 3 years you spoke of may yet be 1 or 2 :o
Excuse me? Can I ask what you think a fair trade would have been for a 2 game player no other club has ever heard of?
rchowell
16 Oct 2003, 14:28
Originally posted by blackers
Excuse me? Can I ask what you think a fair trade would have been for a 2 game player no other club has ever heard of?For starters, if no other club had every heard of him then that is their problem. If they haven't heard of him then they are not in any position at all to put a value on him. For that reason I think that is highly unlikely.
Secondly, a 2 game player at Brisbane would probably have played in excess of 20 games at most other clubs by now, including St Kilda. In fact he'd probably be closer to 40 by now had he been at St Kilda.
What would have been a fair trade? Considering he was taken at pick 19, taking into account that fact that he has no doubt improved since the time he was drafted, I would be after a first round draft pick, preferably top 10.
The club has to play hard ball, like the did with Dessy last year. They have to show that the Headland situation was not a one off, and that if other clubs want to do trades with our footy club, they have to make the running and offer a bloody good deal. If they don't, then all the non Queenslanders will keep running off home and Brisbane will end up like it was a decade ago.
blackers
16 Oct 2003, 15:57
Originally posted by rchowell
Secondly, a 2 game player at Brisbane would probably have played in excess of 20 games at most other clubs by now, including St Kilda. In fact he'd probably be closer to 40 by now had he been at St Kilda.
Yeah, but he is still a two game player. It is far too early for anyone to tell what he's going to be. There's a pretty good chance he'll turn out to be nothing special. If first round draft picks are traded at all, they are traded for guys who are sure things, because you know that when the next Michael Voss comes along, he'll probably be in the first round. St Kilda would be mad to give us a first round pick for him. Plus, pick 23 is not far into the second round - a lot better than 35 or whatever our second round pick is.
What would have been a fair trade? Considering he was taken at pick 19, taking into account that fact that he has no doubt improved since the time he was drafted, I would be after a first round draft pick, preferably top 10.
I think you're undervaluing top 10 draft picks. Top 10 draft picks produce the Riewoldts, Pavliches, Brennans and Wellses of the league. Provided your recruiting manager chooses wisely they are an automatic seniors player in 1-2 years (even in Brisbane).
I don't even think Notting is worth a top ten pick on his own and I'm a big fan of his. Notting plus pick 19 or 23, that would get us in the top 10 (and I think it would be worth it).
Jason Gram - would be disappointed to lose him. He showed enough in his senior appearances to suggest a good senior future at the club, however the lure of his homestate and a perceived lack of opportunities could be the breaking point. The Lions should do everything possible to hold on to Gram.
Gram has been traded to St Kilda for a 2nd round draft pick. A FRIGGIN 2ND ROUND DRAFT PICK. Talk about being majorly ripped off :mad: Yes Mav, it's official. Brisbane has lost the plot. That 3 years you spoke of may yet be 1 or 2 :o
How true:(
TheBrownDog
5 Jan 2007, 18:32
Easy to criticize when you have the benefit of hindsight.
I think the point of the thread pump is that there is no hindsight in CJ's and RC's posts as the dates would indicate.
TheBushranger
5 Jan 2007, 20:45
Easy to criticize when you have the benefit of hindsight.
What;s hindsight got to do with this bumping of the thread? He was criticising before, and not after. Someone does not know english too well methinks.
What is this? MMM or something:rolleyes:? Classic rock maaaaaaaaaaaaan they don't make music, sorry threads like they used to:rolleyes:. Was that that the good old days I keep hearing about:rolleyes:?
I will repeat a mantra I have had for many a long year from watching sport. When you support a team get used to the fact that players come and players go. Yep you lose some good ones now and then but the majority go elsewhere to never re-appear. Get used to it. As to Jason Gram I do not give him a thought or have a regret that he has left us. Forget him. He is meaningless to our our future.
TheBrownDog
6 Jan 2007, 00:59
What;s hindsight got to do with this bumping of the thread? He was criticising before, and not after. Someone does not know english too well methinks.
I was responding to MacLion who bumped the thread. So yeah, you just made a bit of a tool of yourself.
I would take a 2nd round draft pick for Gram now.
What;s hindsight got to do with this bumping of the thread? He was criticising before, and not after. Someone does not know english too well methinks.
No need to be so aggressive. I just thought it interesting that there were posters and Lion supporters ON BF who had a crystal ball and predicted the Gram scenario very accurately.
By the way I am also in the "Gram should never have been traded" camp, for any draft pick. I remember at the time, although I was not posting, I was upset at the meek effort the Lions made to retain Gram. They failed to offer him a new contract and instead looked to trade him.
As far as John's argument of "You loose some you win some". Well yes that's true, however we seem to loose more than win and it pisses me no end when we keep trading and giving away top talent such as Gram.
I would take a 2nd round draft pick for Gram now.
It saddens me to say that you have just shown yourself to be a tool and know FA about football.
It saddens me to say that you have just shown yourself to be a tool and know FA about football.
Give it a break Maclion. Warwick has shown himself to be a more than creditable poster. I know that he does not need me to defend him as he is more that capable of looking after himself but for what it is worth I agree with him so you can whip up narky names for me as well. Gram has had a good season for the saints and that is it.
As far as John's argument of "You loose some you win some". Well yes that's true, however we seem to loose more than win and it pisses me no end when we keep trading and giving away top talent such as Gram.
OK. Now name the top talant that we have "given away". Akermanis and Michael do not count.
It saddens me to say that you have just shown yourself to be a tool and know FA about football.
Sweet FA about football - perhaps.
A tool? Not sure how you ascertained that remarkable prediction from what i said.
Perhaps you should do some more thread-bumping to see where various posters have stood on this issue (myself included) before acting like a complete and utter twit.
TheBushranger
6 Jan 2007, 11:19
I was responding to MacLion who bumped the thread. So yeah, you just made a bit of a tool of yourself.
MacLion didn't say anything. So you are still the tool.
Grimreepah
6 Jan 2007, 11:45
The good teams are the ones who can develop a lot of talented players. With the salary cap, and players wanting to get opportunities at senior level, good teams are always going to lose a few players to other clubs.
Better to have too many good players (and lose some) than too few.
TheBrownDog
6 Jan 2007, 12:32
MacLion didn't say anything. So you are still the tool.
I'm not going to continue this stupid argument, you're simply wrong, and we all know it.
Tool.
TheBushranger
6 Jan 2007, 12:46
I'm not going to continue this stupid argument, you're simply wrong, and we all know it.
Tool.
No, you are wrong. The poster above me even said it (above my first post). You clearly don;t know what hindsight means.
maroon and blue
6 Jan 2007, 13:25
Hmm, let me think. Gary Ablett traded by Hawthorn to Geelong, now their's an example of god having a second resurrection. And what about Bernie Quinlan a.k.a Superboot who was traded by the doggies to the Lions. (Sorry the Fitzroy Lions but the tradition continues!) He just happened to kick a ton and win a Brownlow medal. The history of our great game is full of these twists and turns. But my favorite is Pikey , discarded by four clubs and ends up back at the Lions. He looked like Uncle Fester but could he play. And in the end I would rather say that I had the pleasure to watch Pikey than worry about what might have been.
TheBrownDog
6 Jan 2007, 14:40
No, you are wrong. The poster above me even said it (above my first post). You clearly don;t know what hindsight means.
http://www.stopaddiction.com/images/frustrated.jpg
This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever been involved with.
I was directly responding to the fact that MacLion bumped the thread in order to agree with the statements that had been made by the original poster years ago.
I was simply pointing out to MacLion that it is easy to bump old threads now when you have the benefit of hindsight.
Now seriously, I will not take this ridiculous discussion any further which only arose in the first place because of your inability to put a simple remark in context.
maroon and blue
6 Jan 2007, 15:00
Browndog it may be ridiculous but at least I got to talk about Pikey>:) :)
Grimreepah
6 Jan 2007, 15:34
Browndog it may be ridiculous but at least I got to talk about Pikey>:) :)
Always happy to talk about the great man's work:thumbsu:
danielcanberra
6 Jan 2007, 17:26
This is the narkiest thread I've read on this board.
Please, don't bump up any other really old threads if there is a remote possibility that it will divide our tightknit Lions online supporter community.
This is the narkiest thread I've read on this board.
Please, don't bump up any other really old threads if there is a remote possibility that it will divide our tightknit Lions online supporter community.
Did you miss the threads about that Western Bulldogs player Daniel? This is peanuts in comparison.
danielcanberra
6 Jan 2007, 19:18
Did you miss the threads about that Western Bulldogs player Daniel? This is peanuts in comparison.
This is the narkiest thread about nothing...
The Flying Belgian
6 Jan 2007, 20:17
As far as John's argument of "You loose some you win some". Well yes that's true, however we seem to loose more than win and it pisses me no end when we keep trading and giving away top talent such as Gram.
As mush as I hate to perpetuate this thread, this is a view of which I take umbrage. The list of player in recent memory we have delisted or traded who've have either failed to be re-drafted or been delisted is a long, long one and far too long for me to be bothered to list comprehensively. One's we've "lost" who in hindsight we maybe shouldn't have: Bolton (asked to leave due to lack of oppurtunties), Voss (see Bolton), Gram (has played one good season, but for the purposes of this discussion I'll include him), Caracella (wanted a bigger contract than we could afford (and in further hindsight, sadly, has't cost us much anyway)). Got any more? I don't. Jury's out on Logan and Baird. I suppose Daniel Pratt could come on that list, but I'll wait and see there too.
Let's not forget that if not for Aussie Jones' premature retirement Gram may have already been on the AFL scrapheap.
http://www.stopaddiction.com/images/frustrated.jpg
This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever been involved with.
I was directly responding to the fact that MacLion bumped the thread in order to agree with the statements that had been made by the original poster years ago.
I was simply pointing out to MacLion that it is easy to bump old threads now when you have the benefit of hindsight.
Now seriously, I will not take this ridiculous discussion any further which only arose in the first place because of your inability to put a simple remark in context.
TBD
don't waste any more air on The Bushranger - spend your breath on the funny and irreverant quips you are known for :D
I think you'll find that The Bushranger is known for very different reasons - namely being one of the more consistent and obvious trolls on BF
and no, I dont have a sauce for that ;)
don vito of fitzroy
13 Jan 2007, 15:40
If you want to talk about hierarchys that have lost the plot, let's talk about Collingwood. The players get drunk between matches and they don't hear the f-word too often. "FINALS!"
maroon and blue
14 Jan 2007, 18:36
I just love to beat the Pies!:)