View Full Version : Another Katich ton
Fall Out Boy
5 Nov 2003, 16:22
I'm not a fan, but you can't ignore his form.
With his current form, bowling ability, and being a NSW player, i think it'll now be hard for Boof Lehmann to get back into the test team.
I much prefer watching Lehmann, but it appears Katich will continue to be the front-runner for the number 6 spot in the test team.
stmookeyj
5 Nov 2003, 16:26
I'm guessing Katich vs Love for the final spot in the tests. Boof's international career is done and he'll be creating a mark impossible to break in terms of moo moo cup runs scored.
His first century for NSW after a disappointing time with the bat last season.
Lehmann shouldn't have to wait on the sidelines considering Martyn was reinstated immediately after Love's test century. That seems to be the policy anyway, stick with the first choice players.
Katich should be a regular in the Test side soon enough. Particularly since he gives us that extra bowling option.
Like I said in another thread. A good week for former West Aussies. Centuries to David Hussey and Katich, and David Fitzgerald is on 99 not out at stumps.
OldSchool
5 Nov 2003, 19:02
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
I'm not a fan, but you can't ignore his form.
With his current form, bowling ability, and being a NSW player, i think it'll now be hard for Boof Lehmann to get back into the test team.
I much prefer watching Lehmann, but it appears Katich will continue to be the front-runner for the number 6 spot in the test team.
Boof's been a good player but his time might be up. We need some younger players coming through to replace Waugh and Lehmann. Katich is making the most of his chances. If he keeps the scoreboard ticking over and the occasional bag of 3 or 4 wickets then I would say that he will be hard to replace.
Fall Out Boy
5 Nov 2003, 19:07
Originally posted by OldSchool
Boof's been a good player but his time might be up.
Yeah, i know, just really enjoy watching him bat. Will be sad to see him go.
I'd much rather Michael Clarke replace him than Katich.
OldSchool
5 Nov 2003, 19:16
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Yeah, i know, just really enjoy watching him bat. Will be sad to see him go.
I'd much rather Michael Clarke replace him than Katich. I think Clarke is being groomed for Steve Waugh's spot so we will have 2 inexperienced players at 5 and 6 in the not too distant future. If Gilchrist was to get injured then our batting strength might realy be tested.
Wicked Lester
6 Nov 2003, 13:42
Originally posted by OldSchool
I think Clarke is being groomed for Steve Waugh's spot so we will have 2 inexperienced players at 5 and 6 in the not too distant future. If Gilchrist was to get injured then our batting strength might realy be tested.
And this was a risk with an ageing team.
That's why, personally I'd like to have seen, Waugh 'retired' following the ashes tour last summer. I know it would have been against his will and been quite tough - and I know that his form has recovered since then - but I think it would have been a terrific insurance policy for Australian cricket's future.
Clarke could have debuted against the Windies, with follow up series against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. I don't really think anyone will honestly argue the results of the tests would have been different. Clarke would now have 8 tests under his belt and 20-30 tests prior to the inevitable retirements/axings of Langer and others in say 2005.
Now, as Oldschool says, we face the real prospect of two newcomers at 5 and 6 within the next year (presuming Lehamnn is not reinstated) - and only an injury away from a fairly inexperienced line up.
The confidence with which Hayden, Langer and Ponting can play their shots at the top of the order will then be really tested.
It will certianly be interesting to see how it pans out. Anyway if it is the end of Lehmann's test career he can rightly be regarded as one of the unluckiest players ever. Could easily have played 100+ tests.
I thoroughly enjoy wathcing him bat.
A lot will depend on Boof's injury
However I find it hillarious that people are saying how great Katich is after he has hit two centuries.
Boof used to two centuries in the Shield before breakfeast and not get a sniff of the Aussie team
Katich was picked in Sydney purely for his bowling
If Boof is unfit for Brisbane then Love should play ahead of Katich - no doubt about it in my mind.
If Katich is picked it will be a disgrace
The guy had a shocking season last year and must do the hard yards.
Boof's record from the West Indies onwards has been fantastic and you cna only play teh opposiiton they send out against you.
Not to mention he can play spin pretty well and so if he is fit he should go straight back into the team.
Katich my backside:mad:
Kane McGoodwin
6 Nov 2003, 14:05
Lehmann has done nothing little wrong since he has been in the Australian side & deserves an instant recall. He had to wait his time for years, so Katich can wait too.
Based on the stats below, Lehmann is aprox a 20% better batsman than Katich & I reckon he would score his runs much quicker too. He has the ability to destroy attacks. One of the better players of spin bowling & where are we going next - India!
Katich's bowling figures aren't that great & only just marginally better than Boof's. Certainly doesn't warrant his selection based on the differential on their bowling ability, when there is a huge gap in their batting ability.
First-class Career Batting Averages
Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St Team
DS Lehmann 214 364 24 19165 255 56.36 61 87 115 - SOA/VIC/AUS-XI/YORKS/AUS-A/AUS
SM Katich 85 149 22 6002 228* 47.25 16 30 89 - WA/AUS/DURHAM/AUS-A/YORKS/NSW
First-class Career Bowling Averages
Name Mat O M R W Ave Best 5 10 SR Econ Team
DS Lehmann 214 896.5 187 2586 64 40.40 4-42 - - 84.0 2.88 SOA/VIC/AUS-XI/YORKS/AUS-A/AUS
SM Katich 85 432.3 65 1484 39 38.05 7-130 2 - 66.5 3.43 WA/AUS/DURHAM/AUS-A/YORKS/NSW
Wicked Lester
6 Nov 2003, 14:25
Kane - on pure stats I couldn't agree with you more. Lehmann is an amazing natural talent. The tragedy is he has not played more tests.
BUT his first class record alone may not save him for much longer.
Its becoming increasingly obvious the selectors are nervous about the ageing of the team and the prospect of multiple retirements occurring at around the same time.
In the perfect world ageing would not be such a problem. All the players would play til their late thirties and their bodies would hold up well.
But the world's not perfect. Different players will react to ageing in different ways. Some will find their reflexes decline ever so slighlty between 32 and 35 and that will be the end of them. Some will begin to become injury prone. Others will continue unaffected.
Hence the selectors will continue their ten year old policy of axing or 'retiring' an established player each year (think Jones, Boon, Marsh, Border, Hughes, Taylor, Healy, Miller, Mark Waugh).
Waugh may have escaped the noose for now, so it may be someone elses turn. And guess what? When it comes to age Boof is pretty much next cab off the rank.
He'll be 34 in February. Katich has just turned 28 and Clarke is only 22.
Gilly's nearly 32, Haydo is 32 and Langer will be 33 this month. Warne is 34 and McGrath will be 34 in February.
I'll restate it - some of these players will go on comfortably for a number of years. But some wont. If the selectors want to avoid the risk of multiple retirements/axings they'll act soon - and with Waugh detertmined to play on, poor old Boof may find himself right in the firing line.
Fall Out Boy
6 Nov 2003, 14:25
No one has doubted Lehmann's ability (i love him), but the bottom line is that he's old, and his replacement is in great form, and capable of taking wickets.
If you put your bias aside, Katich is the clearly the frontrunner for the number 6 spot.
At Lehmann's age and relatively average fielding, you cannot expect automatic selection.
Fall Out Boy
6 Nov 2003, 14:27
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Katich's bowling figures aren't that great & only just marginally better than Boof's. Certainly doesn't warrant his selection based on the differential on their bowling ability, when there is a huge gap in their batting ability.
Come on, Katich is clearly superior with the ball. He is a genuine wicket taker who can get plenty of turn, whereas Boof merely bowls nudies when needed.
troy_sibbick
6 Nov 2003, 14:37
Langer should be dropped
Katich to Open
Lehman stays at Six
Kane McGoodwin
6 Nov 2003, 14:57
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Come on, Katich is clearly superior with the ball. He is a genuine wicket taker who can get plenty of turn, whereas Boof merely bowls nudies when needed.
So are you suggesting the stats are wrong???
What next, phaty, claiming Katich will be the next Warney! ;) :p
Fall Out Boy
6 Nov 2003, 15:00
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
So are you suggesting the stats are wrong???
What next, phaty, claiming Katich will be the next Warney! ;) :p
The stats are misleading, yes.
Lehmann has a better test bowling average than Shane Warne, does that make him a better bowler?
Kane McGoodwin
6 Nov 2003, 15:02
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
Kane - on pure stats I couldn't agree with you more. Lehmann is an amazing natural talent. The tragedy is he has not played more tests.
BUT his first class record alone may not save him for much longer.
Its becoming increasingly obvious the selectors are nervous about the ageing of the team and the prospect of multiple retirements occurring at around the same time.
In the perfect world ageing would not be such a problem. All the players would play til their late thirties and their bodies would hold up well.
But the world's not perfect. Different players will react to ageing in different ways. Some will find their reflexes decline ever so slighlty between 32 and 35 and that will be the end of them. Some will begin to become injury prone. Others will continue unaffected.
Hence the selectors will continue their ten year old policy of axing or 'retiring' an established player each year (think Jones, Boon, Marsh, Border, Hughes, Taylor, Healy, Miller, Mark Waugh).
Waugh may have escaped the noose for now, so it may be someone elses turn. And guess what? When it comes to age Boof is pretty much next cab off the rank.
He'll be 34 in February. Katich has just turned 28 and Clarke is only 22.
Gilly's nearly 32, Haydo is 32 and Langer will be 33 this month. Warne is 34 and McGrath will be 34 in February.
I'll restate it - some of these players will go on comfortably for a number of years. But some wont. If the selectors want to avoid the risk of multiple retirements/axings they'll act soon - and with Waugh detertmined to play on, poor old Boof may find himself right in the firing line.
Sure the concern is that there will be a big turnover of players & expose to many inexperienced players, but will there? Players play later these days (& usually start playing for Aus later too), so I reckon Hayden, Punter, Martyn & Gilchrist will be around for a few years yet. ie. No need to panic, so just drop whoever deserves it, when there form starts to drop off. Lehmann's form doesn't warrant dropping him at the moment.
Kane McGoodwin
6 Nov 2003, 15:04
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
The stats are misleading, yes.
So Katich has been unlucky :confused:
bumpkin!
Kane - up until last season Katich was just a part-timer.
In his first season for NSW though he became a genuine wicket-taker.
Lehmann has always just been a stop gap bowler.
Wicked Lester
6 Nov 2003, 15:24
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Sure the concern is that there will be a big turnover of players & expose to many inexperienced players, but will there? Players play later these days (& usually start playing for Aus later too), so I reckon Hayden, Punter, Martyn & Gilchrist will be around for a few years yet. ie. No need to panic, so just drop whoever deserves it, when there form starts to drop off. Lehmann's form doesn't warrant dropping him at the moment.
If the Australian selectors had only dropped those 'who deserved it' in the last ten years a considerable number of players would have played a lot longer. But the selectors are there to do a job and one of those jobs is planning for the future. Hence a long term policy of 'retiring' on average one established player each year. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not so well - but either way the team is turned over and prevented from getting too stale.
I'm well aware players play longer these days and, as I noted, in the perfect world the current team would all stay fit and play into their forties.
But we all know that wont happen and as players move into the thirties the prospect of injury (and reflex decline) increases. The selectors are charged with ensuring the risk of this occurring to a large number of players at one time is minimised.
As I said - I wouldn't be surprised if Boof pays the price for Waugh's determination to play on to India. I honestly can't see the Australian batting line up reaching heading into the summer of 04/05 unchanged.
Someone's likely to go, and unfortunately it may be Boof as there are several middle order contenders.
Langer has no logical replacement as opener breathing down his neck at present.
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
If .
Langer has no logical replacement as opener breathing down his neck at present.
Fitzgerald just made 200
Going on the arguments for Katich he should now be an automatic inclusion in the Australian team on the strenght of one performance;)
despite his being in stellar form, it will still be the NSW mafia's fault if he gets picked :rolleyes:
- which makes me wonder why the NSWelsh win so often when there is obviously a conspiracy going on and we're fielding second string sides.
Originally posted by troy_sibbick
Langer should be dropped
Katich to Open
Lehman stays at Six
Agreed, except id switch Lehmann+Waugh
Fall Out Boy
6 Nov 2003, 16:46
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
So Katich has been unlucky :confused:
bumpkin!
What DaveW said, bumpkin.
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 07:35
Originally posted by DaveW
Kane - up until last season Katich was just a part-timer.
In his first season for NSW though he became a genuine wicket-taker.
Lehmann has always just been a stop gap bowler.
Katich still has a crap bowling average & vastly inferior batting record to Lehmann. Katich needs to put more than just a couple of good performances to deserve pushing for Australian selection. Dave, I reckon you have been brainwashed by the NSW cricketing mafia (ie. any half-decent New South Welshmen should be in the Aus team) or Phatty. ;)
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 07:39
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
If the Australian selectors had only dropped those 'who deserved it' in the last ten years a considerable number of players would have played a lot longer. But the selectors are there to do a job and one of those jobs is planning for the future. Hence a long term policy of 'retiring' on average one established player each year. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not so well - but either way the team is turned over and prevented from getting too stale.
I'm well aware players play longer these days and, as I noted, in the perfect world the current team would all stay fit and play into their forties.
But we all know that wont happen and as players move into the thirties the prospect of injury (and reflex decline) increases. The selectors are charged with ensuring the risk of this occurring to a large number of players at one time is minimised.
As I said - I wouldn't be surprised if Boof pays the price for Waugh's determination to play on to India. I honestly can't see the Australian batting line up reaching heading into the summer of 04/05 unchanged.
Someone's likely to go, and unfortunately it may be Boof as there are several middle order contenders.
Langer has no logical replacement as opener breathing down his neck at present.
Waugh will retire within a year, so that opens up a spot.
Lehmann must go to India as one of the better players of spin bowling.
If Langer's form drops off in the Indian series, then Love is more than capable of playing as an opener. Love has had the runs on the board for several seasons now - unlike Katich!
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 07:40
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
What DaveW said, bumpkin.
Yeah, the stats must be bumpkin...:o
Minkus_Swan
7 Nov 2003, 11:27
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Katich still has a crap bowling average & vastly inferior batting record to Lehmann. Katich needs to put more than just a couple of good performances to deserve pushing for Australian selection.
Your still missing the point - Katich has wicket-taking ability. He got quite a few 5 for 's last year and has not been picked for the Australian team purely on this year's form.
Fall Out Boy
7 Nov 2003, 11:59
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Yeah, the stats must be bumpkin...:o
I didn't think it was possible for one to miss such an obvious point.
Wicked Lester
7 Nov 2003, 12:11
Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Waugh will retire within a year, so that opens up a spot.
Will he?
Within a year or in a year?
In cricket terms the end of the India tour is a full year away and he has hinted that a retirement may follow that tour.
But then again a couple of months back he felt '21 again' and suggested 3 or 4 more years may be the goal. So until the selectors get something definite from Tugga or do something about it, I still think Boof might be in trouble (unfortunately).
But I do agree with you, that he is superb against spin. All in all I think the selectors are in a bit of a bind.
Someone will be 'retired' soon - its a question of who!
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 12:27
Originally posted by Minkus_Swan
Your still missing the point - Katich has wicket-taking ability. He got quite a few 5 for 's last year and has not been picked for the Australian team purely on this year's form.
So what. Michael Bevan has wicket-taking ability & a better average, so does he deserve a place ahead of Katich? Of course not as his batting at Test level against the chin-music is crap! Need to pick batsman on their batting not their bowling ability - it is you who has missed the point. Lehmann is a far superior batsman to Katich, regardless of age.
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 12:28
Originally posted by phatandphreaky
I didn't think it was possible for one to miss such an obvious point.
based on facts that are non-existant...:confused:
PS I choose not to like your point as it sucks big time! ;) :p
Kane McGoodwin
7 Nov 2003, 12:45
Originally posted by Wicked Lester
Will he?
Within a year or in a year?
In cricket terms the end of the India tour is a full year away and he has hinted that a retirement may follow that tour.
But then again a couple of months back he felt '21 again' and suggested 3 or 4 more years may be the goal. So until the selectors get something definite from Tugga or do something about it, I still think Boof might be in trouble (unfortunately).
But I do agree with you, that he is superb against spin. All in all I think the selectors are in a bit of a bind.
Someone will be 'retired' soon - its a question of who!
Surely Waugh will retire at the latest at the end of our next Summer. If we win the away tests against India, it would surprise me if he retires then, as it is the final thing he wants to achieve. Hopefully when Waugh does retire, someone like Clarke or Katich will be in good form to take over.
As I have said before Lehmann is our best player of spin & must go to India. it will be an absolute joke if he doesn't.