View Full Version : Are we over rating WA draftees
Well punters, is it fair to say that if all the WA lads that get mentioned in the phantom drats get a guernsey, then there has been a remarkable upturn on the old draft graph in comparison to last year? Not that any don't deserve a call up, but in light of last year's draft results, there may be a few disappointments here in the west.
The close scrutiny by the AFL clubs as to sus out prospective young stars in order to see that they will "suit" the club and are able to cope with an interstate move may prove to be the downfall for some, regardless of their football ability.
I only hope that these lads are not going to be too disappointed if they don't make it this year to the point that it deters them from continuing in the great game. I have seen it happen and it is a shame that we lose talented players before they are allowed to mature into AFL material.
The system in WA puts a lot of 18 year old payers between a rock and a hard place should they not get a guernsey with the big boys. Hopefully the aim then would be to play at League level. A lot will be ineligble for Colts and the prospect of Reserves is not a real turn on. The WAFC have comeout today and stated in the West Australian that the age of drafteesshould be raised to 18. I personally agree, but what are the WAFC going to put in place in order to have a competitive quality comp for these lads? Raise the age level for eligibility in Colts? Any comments?
Porthos
20 Nov 2003, 08:32
My comment is that its probably the seemingly plentiful supply of half-decent talls that is giving WA players over all such a high rating.
Falconer02
20 Nov 2003, 16:21
Next year and the year after will be even better for WA, to have two top 10 draftees minimum is a big improvement from last yrs 1 for the whole draft.
themoose
20 Nov 2003, 21:10
But do the AFL clubs underrate WAFL draftees. From last year Nicoski, Beeck, Johns and Gilmore are all listed rookie players, after being overlooked at the draft. Smith, Dodd & Parker are still rookie listed. That makes 5 at lest with a future, especially listening to Essendon fans!!
The number of rookie listed players that actually make it from non-vic clubs is way out of proportion. M Michael (Qld) R Robertson (Tas after being drafted and delisted) T Lockyer (WA) B French (WA) C Fletcher (WA) D Rioli (WA) T Knobel (Qld) A Grover (WA) B Kirk (NSW) C McGrath (WA) D Cox (WA) K Green (WA) D Brogan (SA) R Copeland (Qld) R Hadrill (WA) D Haines (WA) D Morrell (WA) R Hayden (WA) Q Lynch (WA) A Sandilands (WA) M Mattner (SA) and thats missing some who played a bit and left (B Marsh et al) The number of Vic rookies pulls some gems (M Johnson Tivendale but at less numbers) Recruiters still rate the TAC cup and U18's as the benchmark (Didn't Pavlich and Haselby play seniors in the season before they were drafted?) overlooking other competitions. Kepler Bradley played in a WAFL premiership team, you should read much more in that performance than any in U18's TAC cup etc. Jacob Surjan played most the year in the seniors, so ditto. When players like Medhurst and Woods fall to the 50's is the players are worth only that or the recruiters are being blinded by the TAC?
Originally posted by themoose
[B the recruiters are being blinded by the TAC? [/B]
Apologies moose for deleting the rest of your post which is very relevant and accurate, but I thought the bit above was probably the most pertinent. I don't know that they are blinded by the TAC Cup competition but they certainly use it as the benchmark In doing so they tend to compare the WA kids with their Victorian counterparts without taking into account the different style of play, the higher standard, in many instances the better standard of coaching not to mention the resources and more professional approach. As long as they adopt that approach they will tend to under rate the WA kids.
Falconer02
20 Nov 2003, 22:28
WA more than held their own against the Victorians in the U/18s carnival and have less players being drafted, victorians have to realise Interstate players are as good or better than the vics.
Originally posted by Falconer02
WA more than held their own against the Victorians in the U/18s carnival and have less players being drafted, victorians have to realise Interstate players are as good or better than the vics.
Umm, no. They may have beaten Vic Country but were absolutely flogged by Vic Metro.
scooter600x
20 Nov 2003, 23:16
Originally posted by Falconer02
WA more than held their own against the Victorians in the U/18s carnival and have less players being drafted, victorians have to realise Interstate players are as good or better than the vics.
Pretty ordinary effort there, Falconer.
Football is way too important to let petty interstate rivalries interfere with drafting.
All clubs would consider the homesickness factor, but if there is a kid out there who can play - anywhere - all 16 clubs will know about him and will take him.
Falconer02
20 Nov 2003, 23:38
Originally posted by scooter600x
Pretty ordinary effort there, Falconer.
Football is way too important to let petty interstate rivalries interfere with drafting.
All clubs would consider the homesickness factor, but if there is a kid out there who can play - anywhere - all 16 clubs will know about him and will take him.
All i am saying is that Victoria will have the most draftees easily and to say that because interstate clubs are being considered htat all WA players get it easy in this years draft.
Black JuJu
21 Nov 2003, 00:38
Originally posted by Falconer02
All i am saying is that Victoria will have the most draftees easily and to say that because interstate clubs are being considered htat all WA players get it easy in this years draft.
Not completely sure what that meant, but I've got to agree with scooter - these days, if there's talent in this country, all the clubs are well aware of it and no doubt consider all options, no matter the state.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 07:49
I have got to admit that Moose raises a very good point. I personally think that WA and SA talent at times is being undervalued in preference to Victorian competition. I also think that WC in particular has used thie to their advantage over last few years, ie drafting Victorian kids early and then using later pics and rookie choices to draft WA and interstate talent.
If you have a look at our reecord with late and rookie picks over last few years its as follows:
Cox (rookie choice and probably top 10 ruckman in the com)
Fletcher (tookie, unlucky not to be an AA this year due to injury)
Embley (late pick, unlucky not to be AA this year)
Staker (late pick, a very cerebral player who has played more games then most draftees this year and still needs to develop his body.)
In fact I tend to think that WC should at times spend more of their earlier choices in WA, as long as we do not pick another Jaxon Crabb, as high profile players aside, ie Judd, we seem to have better luck outside of Vic.
[i] but if there is a kid out there who can play - anywhere - all 16 clubs will know about him and will take him. [/B]
Don't bet on it.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 08:04
Originally posted by YAKUZA
Don't bet on it.
Agreed! There is always a smokie that makes a big splash...
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Agreed! There is always a smokie that makes a big splash...
And there will be at least one tomorrow!
Originally posted by YAKUZA
And there will be at least one tomorrow!
Apparently the Roos are taking someone from Alice Springs with their last pick that no one knows about. Didn't you say something about Sydney taking an unknown player? Is that what you mean?
Clearly the interstaters have some fantastic talent this year as well as years gone bye. We only need to look at the Bradleys,Cooneys and Rays to be more the aware of waht WA and SA can produce. In saying that Victoria is the benchmark for junior talent and will be so for a very long time, until SA and WA become as profesional with there junior programs then its unlikely that Victoria will ever be pushed off the mantle.
Falconer you effort in a previous post was laughable, you said that Victorians have to realise that Interstaters are just as good if not better than the VICS, did you realise that Victoria have to in fact split the state up in 2 to let you guys be at least competive:confused: ????. The fact is even with our state halved in 2 we still manage to flog more so than not SA and WA !!! Imagine this Falconer, say Victoria had 1 side do you still think WA and SA would get within 15 goals of VIC??? doubtfull mate.
If Victoria was 1 side some of the kids in the side would be remarkable.
On ballers like Ricky Dyson who is tipped as a top 20 would struggle for a game behind the likes of Kane Tenace,Brock Mclean,Ryley Dunn,Colin Sylvia,Andrew Walker, the Shaw cousins,Mark Blake,Will Gayfer etc etc.
Now tell me Falconer how would any state side be even competive with the likes i just said???
Sure the interstaters have some awesome talent im not saying that they dont, but to say they are better than VIC kids or even on par with them is a joke.
cheers
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Embley (late pick, unlucky not to be AA this year)
Embley was not a genuine late pick. He was a taken under the one 17-year old per club rule making him one of the best 16 in his age group and effectively a first-round pick.
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Staker (late pick, a very cerebral player who has played more games then most draftees this year and still needs to develop his body.)
Yes but he is a TAC Cup graduate which contradicts your point.
The reason only WA player was taken last year was because there under-18 team was one of the worst rep teams to ever take the field. It was so bad it lead to reforms relating to the talent-development program in the WA Colts.
This year's team was much better and so more players will be drafted, probably a return to the more 'natural' number of 6-10 players.
Part of the reason the TAC Cup is used as a bench-mark is that it is a more advanced program than in WA and SA. There is more emphasis on nutrition, weights and personalised training programs for example. There has long been a feeling that the average SA recruit is a year or two behind his Vic counterpart in weights work for example, something which is reflected in the Crows wilingness to recruit 20 year olds out of the SANFL.
Originally posted by Weaver
Yes but he is a TAC Cup graduate which contradicts your point.
Sure but to say he was a product of the Victorian system is a bit of a stretch. He spent most of his time in Broken Hill and only moved to Canberra very late.
Porthos
21 Nov 2003, 10:11
Originally posted by Weaver
Part of the reason the TAC Cup is used as a bench-mark is that it is a more advanced program than in WA and SA. There is more emphasis on nutrition, weights and personalised training programs for example. There has long been a feeling that the average SA recruit is a year or two behind his Vic counterpart in weights work for example, something which is reflected in the Crows wilingness to recruit 20 year olds out of the SANFL. Yet amusingly, because of SA's heavier concentration on skills of the game, they probably have a higher concentration of successful draftees. You're less likely to get through on the basis of being able to shove the opposition around due to early physical development.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 10:14
Originally posted by Weaver
Embley was not a genuine late pick. He was a taken under the one 17-year old per club rule making him one of the best 16 in his age group and effectively a first-round pick.
Not sure how you work this one out...the age should have nothing to do with this. He was in the list to be drafted and any club could have picked him up earlier in the draft.
The fact that they have not is their loss... Eagles picked up a 15 year old David Wirrpunda because at no. 1 or 2 in the draft because we were convinced of his skills...
If other clubs had recognised Embleys talent they would have drafted him a lot sooner then 60 odd pick that WC got him for.
If draft was held today he would be a first round draft pick...
Originally posted by Weaver
Yes but he is a TAC Cup graduate which contradicts your point.
Please correct me if my understanding of TAC Cup is incorrect but there are only the following clubs that take part:
Gippsland Power
North Ballarat Rebels
Bendigo Pioneers
Calder Cannons
Dandenong Stingrays
Eastern Ranges
Geelong Falcons
Murray Bushrangers
Oakleigh Chargers
Sandringham Dragons
Northern Knights
Western Jets
Staker Bio:
The Eagles' second selection, No.37 overall, in last year's National AFL Draft is an athletic key position player capable of playing at either end. Moved from West Broken Hill to Canberra to follow his AFL dream and finished runner-up in the NSW/ACT Rams' best and fairest. A team man who has good football nous.
Please explain to me how was he a TAC cup graduate?
Porthos
21 Nov 2003, 10:24
By virtue of the NSW/ACT Rams being a TAC Cup team.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 10:26
Originally posted by Porthos
By virtue of the NSW/ACT Rams being a TAC Cup team.
Ok but do they not play in NSW competition and not in Victorian competition...
By no means to I profess to be an expert on this by the way?
Porthos
21 Nov 2003, 10:38
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Ok but do they not play in NSW competition and not in Victorian competition... Well, the TAC cup crosses state boundaries. Murray is the Albury-Wodonga region, NSW/ACT is basically the rest of NSW.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 10:54
1 - M. Voss (Bris) - Vic
2 - N. Buckley (Coll) - SA/NT
3 - A. Goodes (Syd) - Vic
4 - G. Wanganeen (PA) - SA
5 - W. Tredrea (PA) - SA
6 - S. Black (Bris) - WA
7 - J. Hird (Ess) - NSW
8 - R. Harvey (StK) - Vic
9 - S. Crawford (Haw)- NSW
10 - J. Brown (Bris) - Vic
11 - L. Hayes (StK) - NSW
12 - P. Bell (Fre) - WA
13 - B. Hall (Syd) - Vic
14 – M. Ricciuto (Adel) - SA
15 - M. Lloyd (Ess) - Vic
16 – C. Johnson (Bris) - Vic
17 - M. Gardiner (WC) - WA
18 - J. Leppitsch (Bris) - Vic
19 – B. Cousins (WC) - WA
20 – N. Lappin (Bris) - Vic
21 - A. Simpson (Roos) - Vic
22 – M. Michael (Bris) - PNG
23 - M. Scarlett (Geel) - Vic
24 - S. Lucas (Ess) - Vic
25 – C. Tarrant (Coll) - Vic
26 – M. Pavlich (Fre) - SA
27 – S. Burns (Coll) - SA
28 – L. Power (Bris) - Vic
29 – B. Harvey (Roos) - Vic
30 - B. Hart (Adel) - SA
31 – A. Lynch (Bris) - Vic
32 - R. Smith (WB) - ???
33 – L. Barry (Syd) - NSW
34 – P. Hasleby (Fre ) - WA
35 – P. Matera (WC) - WA
36 – J. Johnson (Ess) - Vic
37 – B. Kirk (Syd) - NSW
38 - P. Burgoyne (PA) - SA
39 – M. Coughlan (Rich) - WA
40 - A. Rocca (Coll) - Vic
41 - C. Judd (WC) - Vic
42 – K. Johnson (Rich) - Vic
43 – S. West (WB) - Vic
44 - A. McKay (Carl) - Vic
45 – C. Bizzell (Melb)- Vic
46 - F. Gehrig (StK) - Vic
47 - A. McLeod (Adel) - SA
48 - S. Wakelin (Coll) - SA
49 - J. Smith (Haw) - Vic
50 - D. Brogan (PA) - SA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For my own interest I looked into how are Mike Sheahan top 50 players comprised by state:
SA - 11/50
VIC - 25/50
WA - 7/50
NSW - 5/50
two players are unaccounted as I did not know how to place R Smith and M Michael.
The interesting thing is that whils 50% of the top 50 are Victorian, and say that Mike Sheahan does not have a Victorian bias, 22% are South Australian, 14% WA and 10% are from NSW.
The analysis of this suggests to me that considering the number of draftees, I would say around60%-70% of draftees each year are from Victoria, that get picked up based on state level SA probably has the greatest success rate at producing AFL players followed up by the rest.
The interesting one is NSW which considering that it probably does not have the greatest competition going around still has 5 players in top 50.
Originally posted by no1bankteller
The interesting one is NSW which considering that it probably does not have the greatest competition going around still has 5 players in top 50.
The quirk with NSW is the border region. The teams in this area compete in VCFL leagues. The Albury teams compete in the Ovens and Murray League for example, which is arguably the best country league in the nation.
Some of the towns just over the border like Finley, Wentwoth and Corowa produce great footballers but these footballers play in a Vic League. Most of the juniors in this region end up playing for either the Murray Bushrangers or Bendigo Pioneers in the TAC Cup for example. So they are NSW players but the product of Vic junior football.
Originally posted by Weaver
Part of the reason the TAC Cup is used as a bench-mark is that it is a more advanced program than in WA and SA. There is more emphasis on nutrition, weights and personalised training programs for example. There has long been a feeling that the average SA recruit is a year or two behind his Vic counterpart in weights work for example, something which is reflected in the Crows wilingness to recruit 20 year olds out of the SANFL.
Well if, as you quote, the above is part of the reason what then is the rest of the reason?
And you conveniently forgot to mention the amount of money and resources that are poured into the TAC Cup Competition.
Originally posted by Weaver
Embley was not a genuine late pick. He was a taken under the one 17-year old per club rule making him one of the best 16 in his age group and effectively a first-round pick.
Yes but he is a TAC Cup graduate which contradicts your point.
What on earth is a TAC Cup graduate??
Originally posted by no1bankteller
If other clubs had recognised Embleys talent they would have drafted him a lot sooner then 60 odd pick that WC got him for.
The point is that each club could only take ONE 17 year old each. AFter a club had chosen a 17 year-old they were therefore unable to choose Embley.
To simplify things. If there were only 4 clubs in the draft and picks 1,2 and 3 were 17 year olds ... then the 4th club could safely wait until pick 60 to take their 17 year old safe in the knowledge that no other club could take the player.
Therefore Embley was not the 60th best player in the draft, he was in fact one of the best 15 players in his age group. The rules created a distortion.
This rule existed in 96 and 97.
Originally posted by no1bankteller
The fact that they have not is their loss... Eagles picked up a 15 year old David Wirrpunda because at no. 1 or 2 in the draft because we were convinced of his skills...
The Eagles picked up a 16 year old Wirrpunda because in exchange for losing a contracted player to Fremantle, a club was rewarded with a pre-draft pick for a 16 year old (the draft was 17). The Eagles were therefore oblidged to select the best 16 year old they could and chose Wirrpunda.
Matt Lloyd, Steven King, Adam Houlihan and Chad Morrison were chosen in the same way. None of these players were ever in the draft proper.
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Please explain to me how was he a TAC cup graduate?
Until this season the Tassie Mariners and NSW/ACT Rams competed in the TAC Cup. They were removed to cut down on costs and travel times. They still both play 2 matches as 'guests' in the comp (as do Qld and NT). At the time Staker was a junior he was playing in the TAC Cup though.
GOALden Hawk
21 Nov 2003, 11:42
Originally posted by YAKUZA
What on earth is a TAC Cup graduate??
Until last year Tassie and the RAMS were in the TAC Cup - Staker played a full season in that competition.
It was only this year they moved back to just 4 invitational games.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 11:51
Originally posted by Weaver
The point is that each club could only take ONE 17 year old each. AFter a club had chosen a 17 year-old they were therefore unable to choose Embley.
This rule existed in 96 and 97.
Ok but my points still remains here...that whilst they could only choose one 17 year old that 17 year old coul dhave been Embley... I would be intereted to know how many 17 year olds within that draft turned out to be better then him.
I still do no accept that just because clubs were only able to choose one 17 year old per draft that Embley's selection equates to no1 draft choice.
By the way he was chosen in 1998, how certain are you that this rule finished in 97?
Originally posted by Weaver
The Eagles picked up a 16 year old Wirrpunda because in exchange for losing a contracted player to Fremantle, a club was rewarded with a pre-draft pick for a 16 year old (the draft was 17). The Eagles were therefore oblidged to select the best 16 year old they could and chose Wirrpunda. .
Correct me if I am wrong here but I thought that they could, but did not have to select a 16 year old. Eagles could have selected a 17 or 18 year old with this pick but chose Wirr as the best player.
From memory this option given to the clubs prior to AFL lifting the minimum drafting age to combat criticism over AFL clubs drafting players too young.
Originally posted by Weaver
Until this season the Tassie Mariners and NSW/ACT Rams competed in the TAC Cup. They were removed to cut down on costs and travel times. They still both play 2 matches as 'guests' in the comp (as do Qld and NT). At the time Staker was a junior he was playing in the TAC Cup though.
Ok thank you for clarifying this...
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 11:52
I equated Embley in my previous post as no 1 draft choice...meant to say 1st round draft choice.
Porthos
21 Nov 2003, 11:52
17 year old rule was still around in 1998. It got ousted with the age changes for the 1999 draft (originally to 18, but then modified to 17 and a half) that made it still possible for Collingwood to get Josh Fraser at #1. From then on clubs have been able to draft as many eligible players as they like.
Originally posted by YAKUZA
Well if, as you quote, the above is part of the reason what then is the rest of the reason?
A greater population base that sees a region of 5 million or so squeeze its best juniors into a 12 team competition. In contrast to the more diluted junior comps in SA and WA.
An emphasis on development which sees TAC Cup players largely prevented from playing senior football. In contrast the WA and SA teams have the 'conflict' of whether or not they should promote the kids into senior company.
TAC Clubs are exclusively devoted to their players, whereas in SA and WA the colts teams can be poor relations of the senior side.
The fact that Vic Metro and Vic Country have dominated the national titles.
The presence of elite non-Victorian players playing for Vic clubs eg. Tom Lonergan (Tasmania), Dean Solomon (Bendigo), Bo Nixon (NSW).
The floggings often handed out but the TAC clubs to the Tas, Qld, NSW/ACT and NT teams when they play as guests.
There could be many reasons why the TAC Cup is seen as the benchmark.
Originally posted by YAKUZA
And you conveniently forgot to mention the amount of money and resources that are poured into the TAC Cup Competition.
I don't know what you are attempting to imply. I am not defending the TAC Cup, I am not condemning other comps. I am simply trying to explain why the TAC Cup has come to be seen as the benchmark comp. Me thinks your parochialism is showing.
no1bankteller
21 Nov 2003, 11:57
Originally posted by Porthos
17 year old rule was still around in 1998. It got ousted with the age changes for the 1999 draft (originally to 18, but then modified to 17 and a half) that made it still possible for Collingwood to get Josh Fraser at #1. From then on clubs have been able to draft as many eligible players as they like.
Thanks
Originally posted by Weaver
I don't know what you are attempting to imply. I am not defending the TAC Cup, I am not condemning other comps. I am simply trying to explain why the TAC Cup has come to be seen as the benchmark comp. Me thinks your parochialism is showing.
I am not attempting to imply anything, I am simply pointing out that you conveniently forgot to mention that one of the main reasons the TAC Cup is so strong and therefore seen as the benchmark comp is because of the large amount of money and resources allocated to it.
Perhaps if you had taken the trouble to post all of the information in the first place, including the foregoing, there wouldn't have been any need for my question.
Your assumption re my parochialism is ill founded and serves to emphasise your ignorance. I am a Victorian but unlike you, and so many other Victorians, understand and appreciate that Australian Football is what the name implies an Australia wide game not just a Victorian one.
Originally posted by YAKUZA
I am not attempting to imply anything, I am simply pointing out that you conveniently forgot to mention that one of the main reasons the TAC Cup is so strong and therefore seen as the benchmark comp is because of the large amount of money and resources allocated to it.
By using the word "conveniently" I belive you are implying that I am trying to mislead or misrepresent, or persuing some agenda or other.
I don't belive money is what leads to the TAC Cup being seen as the best junior comp. I think if you invested $20 million in the WAFL Colts it wouldn't address things such as the pool of talent, the independance of the clubs, or the emphasis on development.
Originally posted by YAKUZA
Perhaps if you had taken the trouble to post all of the information in the first place, including the foregoing, there wouldn't have been any need for my question.
I was not attempting to debate the merits or otherwise of the TAC Cup, merely refute the suggestion that it is seen as a benchmark because of purely Victorian bias. A brrief paragraph seemed appropriate.
Originally posted by YAKUZA
Your assumption re my parochialism is ill founded and serves to emphasise your ignorance. I am a Victorian but unlike you, and so many other Victorians, understand and appreciate that Australian Football is what the name implies an Australia wide game not just a Victorian one.
You seem to be quick to the cause of WA football and rather blunt when any WA player might be reviewed in anything less than glowing terms.
I also refute the suggestion that I am anything less than an advocate of the national game. In my mock drafts I was accussed of including too many Div 2 players and not enough Victorians.
Weaver I think what Yakuza is getting at is the imbalance between opportunities. With the TAC Cup being funded at a higher rate than any other junior competition AFL wise compared to every state, Victorian juniors have a greater opportunity to succeed at a higher level than their WA or SA counterparts.
Also when taking into account player reviews, somebody posted it earlier about the styles of games and the size of grounds. If we were to put South Fremantle colts against Calder Cannons, I'm sure Calder would hurt them in the smaller grounds of Victoria, whereas South Fremantle would run Calder off the park in WA.
It's kinda like comparing Holden and Ford, if you get my drift.
GOALden Hawk
21 Nov 2003, 13:10
Originally posted by dasler
Weaver I think what Yakuza is getting at is the imbalance between opportunities. With the TAC Cup being funded at a higher rate than any other junior competition AFL wise compared to every state, Victorian juniors have a greater opportunity to succeed at a higher level than their WA or SA counterparts.
Also when taking into account player reviews, somebody posted it earlier about the styles of games and the size of grounds. If we were to put South Fremantle colts against Calder Cannons, I'm sure Calder would hurt them in the smaller grounds of Victoria, whereas South Fremantle would run Calder off the park in WA.
It's kinda like comparing Holden and Ford, if you get my drift.
Calder would absolutely flog any WAFL Colts team even if they played on the moon, I'm certain of that. To put it in perspective Calder beat Tasmania by 20 goals.
As pointed out, the problem with having 9 Colts teams in WA is the depth - most sides are only going to have 3-4 players max who are top level and then it will fall away. Usually its 6-8 at TAC level, but in Calder's case you could mount a case for 15 or 16 of their best 22.
Originally posted by GOALden Hawk
Calder would absolutely flog any WAFL Colts team even if they played on the moon, I'm certain of that. To put it in perspective Calder beat Tasmania by 20 goals.
As pointed out, the problem with having 9 Colts teams in WA is the depth - most sides are only going to have 3-4 players max who are top level and then it will fall away. Usually its 6-8 at TAC level, but in Calder's case you could mount a case for 15 or 16 of their best 22.
I disagree, South Fremantle had 8 WA players, 10 in the initial squad I think. They would be too fast for Calder playing on Subiaco. You forget they had a % of 212 too...
They beat Peel by 182 points this season without their strongest side
GOALden Hawk
21 Nov 2003, 13:19
Originally posted by dasler
I disagree, South Fremantle had 8 WA players, 10 in the initial squad I think. They would be too fast for Calder playing on Subiaco. You forget they had a % of 212 too...
They beat Peel by 182 points this season without their strongest side
I guess we will never know will we. And I've never watched a WAFL Colts game. But Calder had a % of 263 in what should be a stronger competition (12 teams with access to players from Vic Country, Vic Metro and half of NSW as opposed to WA.)
Originally posted by GOALden Hawk
I guess we will never know will we. And I've never watched a WAFL Colts game. But Calder had a % of 263 in what should be a stronger competition (12 teams with access to players from Vic Country, Vic Metro and half of NSW as opposed to WA.)
Point taken, would have definitely been interesting to see the game played, and I do agree, Calder was awesome this season.
I wonder what the competitions would be like without school football being played and an influx of more players, playing at a higher level.
BTW i though Calder's % was only 238?
Originally posted by dasler
Also when taking into account player reviews, somebody posted it earlier about the styles of games and the size of grounds. If we were to put South Fremantle colts against Calder Cannons, I'm sure Calder would hurt them in the smaller grounds of Victoria, whereas South Fremantle would run Calder off the park in WA.
It's kinda like comparing Holden and Ford, if you get my drift.
If Calder ran out there 3rd side with 16 yr olds they would still beat any Colts side on any ground in WA by 10 goals, i really dont think you can appreciate how good of junior side and program this club has unless you have been in or around the TAC. Calder would be far more profesional than just about any VFL,SANFL or WAFL club going around. Putting a WA colts side up againts the Cannons would be like throwing a bunch preps in a game of footy againts the grade 6s.
Its nothing like comparing Holden to Ford more like comparing a Datsun to a Monaro :D
Originally posted by tige19
If Calder ran out there 3rd side with 16 yr olds they would still beat any Colts side on any ground in WA by 10 goals, i really dont think you can appreciate how good of junior side and program this club has unless you have been in or around the TAC. Calder would be far more profesional than just about any VFL,SANFL or WAFL club going around. Putting a WA colts side up againts the Cannons would be like throwing a bunch preps in a game of footy againts the grade 6s.
Its nothing like comparing Holden to Ford more like comparing a Datsun to a Monaro :D
Yeah see this is your problem, the TAC Cup is the be all and end all. You dont appreciate how good W.A teams running games are tige19. The SF professionalism is far better than any other colts team previously under Roger Kerr.
I disagree whole heartedly with your statements.
Just a quick comparison I knocked up
South Fremantle Colts WAFL Champions
Games 22
Won - 19
Lost - 3
For - 2374 points
Against - 1119 points
Points For Per Game - 108 points
Points Against Per Game - 51 points
Average Win - 57 points
Heighest Score - 195 points
Lowest Score - 59 points
Biggest Win - 182 points
End of Season % - 212.15
Calder Cannons TAC Cup Champions
Games - 22
Won - 21
Lost - 1
For - 2616 points
Against - 1118 points
Points For Per Game - 119 points
Points Against Per Game - 51 points
Average Win - 68 points
Heighest Score - 180 points
Lowest Score - 48 points
Biggest Win - 174 points
End of Season % 233.98
Also got some state team listed players for you as a comparison too
Calder Cannons
Adam Bentick
Chris Goullet
Ron Davis
Brock McLean
Eddie Betts
Dale May
Ben Clifton
South Fremantle
Jordan Smith
Craig White
Jacob Surjan
Paul Duffield
Glenn Rush
Theo Adams
Gerard Wilkie
Brent Hall
Matthew Moody
Craig Jovanovic
Originally posted by Weaver
By using the word "conveniently" I belive you are implying that I am trying to mislead or misrepresent, or persuing some agenda or other.
I don't belive money is what leads to the TAC Cup being seen as the best junior comp. I think if you invested $20 million in the WAFL Colts it wouldn't address things such as the pool of talent, the independance of the clubs, or the emphasis on development.
I was not attempting to debate the merits or otherwise of the TAC Cup, merely refute the suggestion that it is seen as a benchmark because of purely Victorian bias. A brrief paragraph seemed appropriate.
You seem to be quick to the cause of WA football and rather blunt when any WA player might be reviewed in anything less than glowing terms.
I also refute the suggestion that I am anything less than an advocate of the national game. In my mock drafts I was accussed of including too many Div 2 players and not enough Victorians.
In using the word conveniently I was suggesting that you should have included the fact that the money and resources allocated to the TAC Cup are indeed a major factor in the success of that competition. If you don't think that is the case then tell where it would be without them.
As for me being "quick to the cause of WA football"I presume that you are referring to Farren Ray and my reaction to what I considered your two rather ill informed and unfair assessments of his ability and character. If there were comments on other WA players, as you suggest, that I reacted rather bluntly to then I don't readily recall them.
I don't expect WA players to be reviewed in glowing terms but I do expect them to be accurately assessed and fail to see how you and others in a similar situation can do that when you have at best had only a limited look at them.
As for you being accused for not including enough Victorians, I suspect that criticism would only have come from other Victorians.
Not much interest from the Vics after the stats were put up? I wonder why......:confused:
Originally posted by GOALden Hawk
Calder would absolutely flog any WAFL Colts team even if they played on the moon, I'm certain of that. To put it in perspective Calder beat Tasmania by 20 goals.
As pointed out, the problem with having 9 Colts teams in WA is the depth - most sides are only going to have 3-4 players max who are top level and then it will fall away. Usually its 6-8 at TAC level, but in Calder's case you could mount a case for 15 or 16 of their best 22.
Now being an expert on WAFL Colts football you'd know all about that wouldn't you?
Your problem sunshine is that you live in your own little insular Victorian world and think that you're an expert on all things football when the truth is, you haven't got a clue what goes on in football in the rest of the country. Stick to what you know about and stop making a fool of yourself.
Originally posted by tige19
If Calder ran out there 3rd side with 16 yr olds they would still beat any Colts side on any ground in WA by 10 goals, i really dont think you can appreciate how good of junior side and program this club has unless you have been in or around the TAC. Calder would be far more profesional than just about any VFL,SANFL or WAFL club going around. Putting a WA colts side up againts the Cannons would be like throwing a bunch preps in a game of footy againts the grade 6s.
Its nothing like comparing Holden to Ford more like comparing a Datsun to a Monaro :D
Another Victorian expert on the WAFL Colts Competition, no doubt you have seen a lot of Colts games in WA and as such you are able to substantiate that idiotic statement you have made above. But maybe just maybe it's that typical, arrogant, know it all Victorian attitude that is reponsible for you making a fool of yourself.
Streaker
21 Nov 2003, 23:39
It really isn't worth getting steamed up about Yak. Let them live in their insular world and become slaves to mediocrity.
southjoy
21 Nov 2003, 23:44
I think that the TAC cup is a system that we would all like to have in place. Such large professional organisations designed to develop young players to their potential.
We would love a system like that in the West. The only problem is that our Colts system doesn't receive the same amount of money some TAC teams can pay their CEO, let alone the whole comp.
We are changing our system to take on board some of the aspects of TAC like keeping our players in this underage comp till at least the 18's carnival. BUT SERIOUSLY until the WA Colts comp( and WAFL) can receive some serious money from the AFL then it is pushing it uphill.
The good thing about underage footy is that we, the fans enjoy watching the talent coming through and throughout Aust we must be doing something right as the kids coming through ( in general)nowadys are a lot more ready for it.
We would just like some more funding please!
themoose
22 Nov 2003, 00:59
Doesn't the AFL (all 16 clubds fund the TAC) but the WAFC (West Coast and a bit of Freo) fund the WAFL colts. That doesn'y seem fair considering many draftees from WA end up all over Australia.
But agian back to the point last top 20 WA flop would be Brandon Hill in 1998.
Yet TAC champs like Pettifer get top 10, and Woods in the same draft played WAFL seniors selected at 51, but I'm pretty sure the Calder Cannons could probably knock off half the league sides over here by 5.:D
|D_J^B_J|
22 Nov 2003, 02:18
Originally posted by Weaver
This year's team was much better and so more players will be drafted, probably a return to the more 'natural' number of 6-10 players.
I'm not sure where you get your figures from Weaver, but between 1995 - 2001, WA has produced an average of over 13 draftees per year. The highest number within that range of time was 19 in 1995 and the lowest was 10 in 2000. Furthermore, WA has produced 6 of the 17 number one draft picks since the introduction of the draft in 1986.
Including the father-son selections, I think you'll be hearing the names of at least 14 WA boys called out tomorrow morning, with many more to be rookie listed.
And to those arrogant, parochial, Victorian 'experts' suggesting 'Calder would slaughter South Fremantle or any other WAFL colts side', may I ask how many WAFL colts games you see each year, or how knowledgeable you are of the WAFL in general?
I am really gobsmacked right now that Jacob Surjan, Lukas Teague or Paul Duffield aren't on a senior list right now.
More so Surjan from a potential top 25 pick to not on a list at all.
Very disappointed with Fremantle's lack of appreciation for home grown talent.
Originally posted by dasler
I am really gobsmacked right now that Jacob Surjan, Lukas Teague or Paul Duffield aren't on a senior list right now.
More so Surjan from a potential top 25 pick to not on a list at all.
Very disappointed with Fremantle's lack of appreciation for home grown talent.
West Coast didn't take any local players either. WA had 12 players taken, not a bad result at all. I would be surprised if Surjan didn't end up on a rookie list. Don't know enough about Duffield or Teague to comment.
Porthos
22 Nov 2003, 11:29
It seems that its been SA draftees that we've underrated.
funky_monk
22 Nov 2003, 11:32
Originally posted by Sera
West Coast didn't take any local players either. WA had 12 players taken, not a bad result at all. I would be surprised if Surjan didn't end up on a rookie list. Don't know enough about Duffield or Teague to comment.
Apparently Freo was/is keen on Duffield. Will be very suprised if we (or someone) doesn't rookie list him.
ThePope
22 Nov 2003, 11:32
Michael Johnson, Burgess (very smoky, he was!), Brett Jones, Paul Richardson would be the other surprise missed.
Maybe they had an idea that no-one else would go for them, hence they won't lose them by waiting until the rookie draft?
Am disappointed not to get Moody though.
southjoy
22 Nov 2003, 12:16
Great to see that we got 12 drafted this year especially after just a poor 1 last year. I think that some more boys will be rookie listed as local clubs seem to be doing this on late style pick players.
Players like Duffield, Burgess, Johnson, etc
no1bankteller
22 Nov 2003, 12:30
Originally posted by southjoy
Players like Duffield, Burgess, Johnson, etc
Can Burgess be rookied? I thought he was too young?
I would like to see WC rookie Surjan and Johnson...
It is interesting but I am not suprised we did not draft any WA talent...it follows a pattern that I have noted before of WC drafting interstate talent early and hoping that WA talent slips through into the rookie draft or late picks...it has worked well for us in the past, ie Cox, Lynch and Fletcher...here is hoping it works out for us again..
southjoy
22 Nov 2003, 12:36
Originally posted by no1bankteller
Can Burgess be rookied? I thought he was too young?
I would like to see WC rookie Surjan and Johnson...
It is interesting but I am not suprised we did not draft any WA talent...it follows a pattern that I have noted before of WC drafting interstate talent early and hoping that WA talent slips through into the rookie draft or late picks...it has worked well for us in the past, ie Cox, Lynch and Fletcher...here is hoping it works out for us again..
I'm not sure on Burgess myself but he will benefit from having a full year of Colts football under him. Will definately get drafted next year if not rookied.
tashibatts
22 Nov 2003, 13:15
Looking for WAFL watchers.. what are your thoughts on LeCras & Chad Jones (West Perth and Claremont respectively)
?
Thanks.
Can either play FB with much effectiveness?
Go Roos
OldSchool
22 Nov 2003, 13:42
Originally posted by dasler
I am really gobsmacked right now that Jacob Surjan, Lukas Teague or Paul Duffield aren't on a senior list right now.
More so Surjan from a potential top 25 pick to not on a list at all.
Very disappointed with Fremantle's lack of appreciation for home grown talent.
It might have something to do with the lack of AFL funding :)
Originally posted by tashibatts
Looking for WAFL watchers.. what are your thoughts on LeCras & Chad Jones (West Perth and Claremont respectively)
?
Thanks.
Can either play FB with much effectiveness?
Go Roos
To be honest I can't see how Le Cras got drafted, Jones is a likely type
tashibatts
22 Nov 2003, 13:46
Originally posted by dasler
To be honest I can't see how Le Cras got drafted, Jones is a likely type
So you don't rate LeCras?
Jones a likely type- good enough for me.
Thanks.
Go Roos
Tashi i'm just in denial atm with what's happened today. I obviously don't watch the same games as the recruiters so don't listen to anything i say anymore ha ha ha :(
Originally posted by tashibatts
So you don't rate LeCras?
Jones a likely type- good enough for me.
Thanks.
Go Roos
I rate LeCras, but he will need to prove himself quickly at the Roos. Was BOG in the WAFL grand final, not bad for a defender. The only thing I would worry about is his size. He is a bit small for an AFL defender.
|D_J^B_J|
22 Nov 2003, 15:42
Originally posted by Sera
The only thing I would worry about is his size. He is a bit small for an AFL defender.
Since when has a height of 192cm and a weight of 95kg been too small for an AFL defender?
tashibatts
22 Nov 2003, 16:01
Originally posted by |D_J^B_J|
Since when has a height of 192cm and a weight of 95kg been too small for an AFL defender?
Is that his actual height? So far I have heard 186cm, 189cm and 192cm..
Dasler- any opinion I can get on a guy I have never even heard of, is a good opinion.
Sera- glad you rate him..
BOG isn't bad at all. Hopefully he can play a few games next year.
Thanks:)
Go Roos
Definitely 192cm and 95kg tashi. He's a solid, dependable defender who doesn't do anything special and is the "reliable" type of tall you want in defence.
No nonsense gets the job done type.
tashibatts
22 Nov 2003, 16:22
Originally posted by dasler
Definitely 192cm and 95kg tashi. He's a solid, dependable defender who doesn't do anything special and is the "reliable" type of tall you want in defence.
No nonsense gets the job done type.
Thanks. Sounds a little like Leigh Colbert (Reliable, Solid- doesn't do anything special)
Long as he can get a job done, and he does it well, then I am happy to have him.
Go Roos
footyman
23 Nov 2003, 21:22
Originally posted by tige19
Clearly the interstaters have some fantastic talent this year as well as years gone bye. We only need to look at the Bradleys,Cooneys and Rays to be more the aware of waht WA and SA can produce. In saying that Victoria is the benchmark for junior talent and will be so for a very long time, until SA and WA become as profesional with there junior programs then its unlikely that Victoria will ever be pushed off the mantle.
Falconer you effort in a previous post was laughable, you said that Victorians have to realise that Interstaters are just as good if not better than the VICS, did you realise that Victoria have to in fact split the state up in 2 to let you guys be at least competive:confused: ????. The fact is even with our state halved in 2 we still manage to flog more so than not SA and WA !!! Imagine this Falconer, say Victoria had 1 side do you still think WA and SA would get within 15 goals of VIC??? doubtfull mate.
If Victoria was 1 side some of the kids in the side would be remarkable.
On ballers like Ricky Dyson who is tipped as a top 20 would struggle for a game behind the likes of Kane Tenace,Brock Mclean,Ryley Dunn,Colin Sylvia,Andrew Walker, the Shaw cousins,Mark Blake,Will Gayfer etc etc.
Now tell me Falconer how would any state side be even competive with the likes i just said???
Sure the interstaters have some awesome talent im not saying that they dont, but to say they are better than VIC kids or even on par with them is a joke.
cheers Thats a great post tige I couldn't have said it better myself.
I can recall after the draft of 2001 where SA had two draftees (Jarrad Wright and Brian Harris) that many of the South Australian fools (probably Ken Cunningham and Graham Cornes) made a complete fuss about how poorly SA fared and operated their underage programs. Since 2002 SA had Peter Jonas to establish the SA Football Program and that was taken over by Darren Trevena this year I think. Hopefully that works, but I think a lot of that would be based on what happened in Victoria when the TAC Cup Clubs were established. I know from speaking to keatings_gal that a lot of what happens up in QLD is very familiar as I have seen and heard TAC Cup clubs doing similar activities over the last 5 years.
tige19 rightly points out that Victoria has to be split into two for the U18 Championships and the fact that only once since 1996 have the championships been won by a non-Victorian side shows the dominance of this state in underage talent.