25 and under

[Porthos]

Here's our list of players aged 25 and under as at December 31, 2003, and I've tried to make a team out of them.


F...Dew........White........S. Burgoyne
HF..C. Cornes..Tredrea......Salopek
C...Cassisi....Carr.........K. Cornes
HB..Gilham.....Chaplin......Symes
B...Peel.......Thurstans....Forster-Knight
R...Brogan.....P. Burgoyne..Ebert

Int: Cochrane, Ackland, Pettigrew, Hall
Emerg: Champion, Patfull

It looks like we'll need a ruckman next year to keep the future succession going. Apart from that it all seems pretty balanced, and not crap. A much better spread of player types than a couple of years ago - I don't think we need to worry about premiership windows overly much.

[Vindaloo Mat]

I think that the fact that you placed all of this year's drft picks in the side...3 of them sight unseen....and 3 of them down back may tell you something.

[Porthos]

Assume I'm dumb. What does it tell me?

[Eddie Woloschek]

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
I think that the fact that you placed all of this year's draft picks in the side...3 of them sight unseen....and 3 of them down back may tell you something.

Perhaps that Port drafted for perceived need - defenders.

[sog35]

Originally posted by Vindaloo Mat
I think that the fact that you placed all of this year's drft picks in the side...3 of them sight unseen....and 3 of them down back may tell you something.

That we have countered in next years trading and draft picks?

One or two of our draft picks will be good serviceable players, maybe more. I'm content that if we take the best ruckman available (where have we heard that before ;) ) and then get a couple of half back midfielder types, along with anything we can pick up with trades then we will be doing alright.

[Porthos]

Originally posted by Eddie Woloschek
Perhaps that Port drafted for perceived need - defenders. Yeah, but we also traded away our perceived need in Morgan and Guerra.

[Port01]

Originally posted by Porthos
Yeah, but we also traded away our perceived need in Morgan and Guerra.

Yeah, but neither wanted to stay.

[Porthos]

I dunno that thats what VM is referring to in any case.

[Ford Fairlane]

Brogan's dob is 14/12/1978 so he qualifies for that side.

[sog35]

I think he's just trying to say we have an aging defence and that the replacements are currently untried.

[sog35]

And looking at that side only 3 from the original list:

Dew
Tredders
Peter Burgoyne

I'm not trying to say anything, just interesting.

[Vindaloo Mat]

hmmmmmm


what I meant was I do not think our 25 and under (generous crieteria btw) is that strong....mainly because a lot are untried. This is not a problem now because our team is playing to win the flag this year not or maybe as well as in 5 years time.

However....

6 of the starting 18 have not played a game....I would expect that in maybe a 21 and under side....but not a 25 and under. Right now they are untested at AFL level....some I am very confident about (Ebert) and some still have real question marks (Gilham, this year's picks, White). Then you add Salopek & Thurst who have each played a handful of games...hmmmmm. Perhaps a selection issue rather than a talent issue but still....if they were that good they would get a game. Ask the same question of Collingwood and see how many of their best 25 and under side has not played 1 AFL game.....

The core of that side, Tredders, Cornes, Brogan, P Burgoyne, Carr are closer to 25 than to 21.

We have Cassisi, K. Cornes...perhaps J Burger in the 20-22 age bracket....the first 2 will be handy but not superstars...J Burger should be good.

So....you have a clutch of senior players who if you did this in a year or two's time would not qualify....a couple of handy 20-22 players and a clutch of untried youngsters. If this age group were our strength this year's picks would not get a show.

[Porthos]

True, but the only way this age group would be our strength would be if we were a considerably worse side previous and thus had few senior players. Either that or hadn't traded draft picks for extra senior players most years (Hardwick, Pickett, Wakelin)

That isn't our best 25-and-under side as much as its our only 25-and-under side. All other players on our list (13 of them) are 26 or older. This is in comparison to Collingwood who have just 8 aged 26 or over, and Brisbane with 14.

I agree that its not a side strong with experience, but right now it doesn't need to be. It does, however, show a reasonable balance of depth in all positions and a couple of good talents.

I think that there's no doubt by anyone that we'll have to have a year where we'll drop down the ladder as the changing of the guard takes place. However that year is still a year or two away, and we've got another two drafts and a bit of room to try some of these players out between now and then.

If you're commenting that we have too much clog in the 26 and over category, I don't think you'll find many people to disagree.

[Porthos]

Just for completeness, here's the list of 26 and over.

Defence: Bishop, Hardwick, Kingsley, Montgomery, Poulton, Wakelin, Wanganeen
Midfield: Francou, James, Schofield
Forward: Pickett
Ruck: Primus, Lade

[sog35]

Originally posted by Porthos

If you're commenting that we have too much clog in the 26 and over category, I don't think you'll find many people to disagree.

This is the clog that will win grand finals though. There aren't too many teams that rely on their 25 and unders to win a flag. Maybe that has been Collingwood's problem (and the fact they had to play the Lions).

[Porthos]

Originally posted by sog35
This is the clog that will win grand finals though. There aren't too many teams that rely on their 25 and unders to win a flag. Maybe that has been Collingwood's problem (and the fact they had to play the Lions). Mostly, but when you look at it, thats a lot of defenders. After that draft, I really can't see why we're keeping Kingsley - having that much `senior' depth is a real luxury/gamble with the 38 man list.

[PAfolwr]

Originally posted by Porthos
Just for completeness, here's the list of 26 and over.

Defence: Bishop, Hardwick, Kingsley, Montgomery, Poulton, Wakelin, Wanganeen
Midfield: Francou, James, Schofield
Forward: Pickett
Ruck: Primus, Lade
That is a good thing.

Apart from Poulton and Kingsley they are all in our best 22.
It shows that if you don't perform and are over 25 then we don't keep them just for the sake of it.

[dees_best]

Here's a good 25 and under team for all you Port fans:

B:Whelan-Nicholson-Rivers
HB:Heffernan-Ferguson-Bell
C:Bruce-Sylvia-Johnstone
HF:Houlihan-Smith-Robertson
F:Green-Miller-Armstrong
R:Jolly-McLean-Thompson
I:Jamar-Godfrey-Carroll-Hunter
EMERGENCIES:Fisher-Wheatley-Molan-Williams-Lamb-Broadbridge-Carson-C.Johnson

[Macca19]

Originally posted by dees_best
Here's a good 25 and under team for all you Port fans:

B:Whelan-Nicholson-Rivers
HB:Heffernan-Ferguson-Bell
C:Bruce-Sylvia-Johnstone
HF:Houlihan-Smith-Robertson
F:Green-Miller-Armstrong
R:Jolly-McLean-Thompson
I:Jamar-Godfrey-Carroll-Hunter
EMERGENCIES:Fisher-Wheatley-Molan-Williams-Lamb-Broadbridge-Carson-C.Johnson

Why are you posting this here?

[dees_best]

I know this is the Port board and all but I was quite impressed with your younger brigade of players and thought it would be interesting to compare the with the ones coming through at the MFC.

Here's the matchups:

F:Dew-White-S. Burgoyne
B:Whelan-Nicholson-Rivers

HF:C. Cornes-Tredrea-Salopek
HB:Bell-Ferguson-Heffernan

C:Cassisi-Carr-K. Cornes
C:Bruce-Sylvia-Johnstone

HB:Gilham-Chaplin-Symes
HF:Robertson-Smith-Houlihan

B:Peel-Thurstans-Forster-Knight
F:Green-Miller-Armstrong

R:Brogan-P. Burgoyne-Ebert
R:Jolly-McLean-Thompson

Int: Cochrane- Ackland- Pettigrew- Hall
Int:Jamar-Godfrey-Carroll-Hunter

Emerg: Champion- Patfull
Emerg:Fisher-Wheatley-Molan-Williams-Lamb-Broadbridge-Carson-C.Johnson

IMO both have pretty competitive sides.

Thoughts?

[mic59]

Players lift when given more responsibility. The fact that we can make a team out of our under 25 players and include a number with some game time augurs well. In particular players like K.Cornes, Cassisi and Junior Burger, who have up until now payed supporting roles, will be asked to fill gaps, something I am sure they will do admirably. I expect that in time some of the players who are getting very little gametime will be forming the nucleus of the side. The plus is that there will not be a mass exodus of experienced players. Although we have to watch our defence over the next 2 or 3 years I would expect to lose no more than 2 players to retirement any year.

[Russian]

Originally posted by Porthos
Here's our list of players aged 25 and under as at December 31, 2003, and I've tried to make a team out of them.


F...Dew........White........S. Burgoyne
HF..C. Cornes..Tredrea......Salopek
C...Cassisi....Carr.........K. Cornes
HB..Gilham.....Chaplin......Symes
B...Peel.......Thurstans....Forster-Knight
R...Brogan.....P. Burgoyne..Ebert

Int: Cochrane, Ackland, Pettigrew, Hall
Emerg: Champion, Patfull

It looks like we'll need a ruckman next year to keep the future succession going. Apart from that it all seems pretty balanced, and not crap. A much better spread of player types than a couple of years ago - I don't think we need to worry about premiership windows overly much. I don't see Peel playing BP any better than Kingsley - switch with Gilham, I reckon Salopek will take Ebert's spot in the middle, Ebert to be the 4th midfielder starting on the wing.

Seemed to be a pretty weak draft in terms of ruckmen - I reckon we'll rookie list at least 1 of Ericksen, Whitehead and Parry. We've got plenty of time for Ericksen to bulk up a bit - a lot - and Parry will do a reasonable job rucking at AFL level even if he's not good enough to be a regular ruckman at AFL level.

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane
Brogan's dob is 14/12/1978 so he qualifies for that side. :confused: Did Porthos miss him in the first team?

Originally posted by sog35
And looking at that side only 3 from the original list:

Dew
Tredders
Peter Burgoyne If u think about it, that says that 3 of our 17/18 year olds from the 96 draft are still on the list, pretty good success rate i wouldve thought


Edit: and that Melbourne spine has a lot to prove

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by Russian
Seemed to be a pretty weak draft in terms of ruckmen - I reckon we'll rookie list at least 1 of Ericksen, Whitehead and Parry. We've got plenty of time for Ericksen to bulk up a bit - a lot - and Parry will do a reasonable job rucking at AFL level even if he's not good enough to be a regular ruckman at AFL level.

:confused: Did Porthos miss him in the first team?



Brogan may have been overlooked.

BTW Eriksen was drafted by Sydney.

I'd like to see a reasonably experienced state league KPP defender added to the main list in the preseason draft - still a little uncomfortable about our depth there for a ready to go player at the moment. Maybe Parry could be a worth a punt there ... and a ruckman on the rookie list wouldn't go astray (Eddie has this rule about Loserville, so Whitehead is a no go - Norwood always seem to have some monster college kid running around - maybe there's one there we can take.).

[Russian]

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane
I'd like to see a reasonably experienced state league KPP defender added to the main list in the preseason draft Is Hopwood still training with us? and Parry? and r we going to use the PSD pick? Don't South have a pretty good ruckman for when Brogs and Ladey arent there?

[PJ Power]

It all makes for interesting debate, but I don't think we should do our recruiters and coaching panel discredit here:

The list is actually nicely balanced across the board. It has been thought out and our select drafting of defenders this year proves that we are trying to keep the balance of our list right not just for now but for the next 5-10 years. I am also not convinced that we will need to have the down year that Porthos alludes to, because of this well-planned selection process:

Rucks:
Primus-Lade-Brogan-Ackland
- the first three are all very competent, if not great, first ruckmen
who between them will serve us for at least five years.
Cain's inability to push on after 2001 has so far let us down.
We need to find the rookie replacement for Barry Brooks within
the next 12 months.

Midfielders:
Francou-James-Carr (our best 3)
P. Burgoyne-Schofield-K.Cornes (next 3)
Salopek-Ebert (hopefully our 2 stars of the future)
Hall-Cassisi-Symes (unproven)
Cochrane
- the youth of Carr, P.Burgoyne and Kane will enable a smooth
transition from Francou and James to Salopek and Ebert. The
initiation starts in 2004. Sal and Brett are just as likely to be
stars as Sylvia and McLean IMO. Hall is under-rated and has
improved greatly in the last 18 months.

Key Forwards:
Tredrea-C. Cornes (our beacons for 5-8 years)
White (the most likely of the rest)
Patful-Champion (who knows?)
- even if the latter three never prove themselves, we will still
have an awesome combination, coupled with good ruck-
forwards for the next few years, giving us enough time to
unearth another talent if we need to.

Key Backs: (grey area I)
Wakelin-Bishop (competent and proven)
Thurstans (looks really capable, better than I anticipated)
Chaplin (must be rated better than 50-50 to turn out OK)
Gilham-Pettigrew (fair bit of work before we will know for sure)
- clearly this is where we may be vulnerable but still we have
2 proven players, one on the verge of a regular birth, and
one we are confident of. The transition should again be
smooth enough if Wakes and Bish can play competently for 2-
3 years and Toby continues to improve before Chaplin really
establishes himself by 2006.

Peripheral defenders: (grey area II)
Wangas-Hardwick-Monty-Kingsley (2 years likely; 1 for Dimma; Kingsley??))
Wilbur-Poulton (4 years)
Peel (unproven)
RFK (????)
- worst case scenario we still have two very good and under-
rated backmen for at least 4 years. Add the talent of Shaun
Burgoyne and there is nothing wrong with the trio of
Poulton, Wilson and Burgoyne, once Wangas and co. have
played their last. The key is not to undersell Poulton. The
more replays I watch over the off-season, the more I
appreciate how good this guy is and how bloody stupid we
were not to play him in the games that counted.

Small forwards:
Pickett-Dew (5 years)
S. Burgoyne (8-10 years)
Resting midfielders (P. Burgoyne et al.)
- still more talented small forwards for at least next five years
than any other club, bar none, at this point in time. We will
need to keep topping up periodically to ensure the pool of
young sharp-shooters.


BOTTOM-LINE:

Our selection has enabled us to look, at the least, very solid across every line for the next five years. In that time a lot can happen: we have introduced Pickett, Wakelin, Monty, JB, KC, Carry, Broges, Bish, Poults and Schoey (plus others) in the last five years.

Do not lose faith.

The key is just how good can our young bucks be?
We need superstars to top off the competent soldiers.
Here's hoping Salopek, Ebert, Chaplin can add to Tredders, Wangas and Primus' blueprint.

[Porthos]

If a tall forward gets injured, we continue to be in trouble.

[PJ Power]

Originally posted by Porthos
If a tall forward gets injured, we continue to be in trouble.

Absolutely, but the same applies perhaps even more to Brisbane and Collingwood. Their young hopefuls are to my knowledge no more advanced than ours.
Plus:
1. We also have the advantage of three increasingly even ruckmen and I have confidence in at least 2 of them being serviceable up front (Ladey and Primus)
2. Both Tredders and Cornesy have performed (between them) on no fewer than five occasions in 2003 without the other being present: all were winning games and some of them were very impressive efforts with the likes of Junior Burger especially, lifting to another level when he needed to.
3. Thurstans is pretty versatile and looked OK in some first quarters up forward. Choco just didn't persevere with him for long enough in games as a forward.

Somewhere in the mix, I think we can cover, provided (goes without saying) that our injuries are within reason.

[Ford Fairlane]

Originally posted by Russian
Is Hopwood still training with us? and Parry? and r we going to use the PSD pick? Don't South have a pretty good ruckman for when Brogs and Ladey arent there?

I've heard Parry and Hopwood have been invited to train, not sure whether they've started yet. Hopwood is a flanker tho and Parry rucked all year - so no established back up KPP there (altho Parry could adapt I'd reckon).

South have Mark Bradley who carved Port up a couple of times when I saw them - but he's only 193cm and may be too old to rookie list. I think he was a Carlton rookie, maybe on the main list, previously.

[Kid Dynamite!]

Originally posted by Ford Fairlane
(Norwood always seem to have some monster college kid running around - maybe there's one there we can take.).

You're looking in the right place for monster college kids. A few big lumps of blokes out on the track last night, I can tell you. There were so many new faces at training last night, I only recognised two guys, and when I spoke to Scott (Borlace) he said he didnt know many of them either.

To clear up any speculation about why he was delisted, we talked about it and he said Chocco just called him in and said we weren't going to renew his contract. He said as soon as he'd broken his hand he had a feeling we wouldnt keep him on but he didnt seem all that fussed about it. He was just greatful for the experience.

[wooshta_9]

Quote
Emerg: Champion, Patfull
------------------------------------

Champion put him in the 22 trust me this boy is going to be an absolute star given the right chances.

[PJ Power]

Originally posted by wooshta_9
Quote

------------------------------------

Champion put him in the 22 trust me this boy is going to be an absolute star given the right chances.


I love the optimism, but I'd be very grateful to hear your basis for it. I can't remember him playing any games for Westies last year (maybe one 2 goal effort for the reserves from memory)

[sog35]

Champion didn't play league this year. But if he is fit for the upcoming season should be a good chance to at least have a shot at league.

[wooshta_9]

No Wado didnt play league this year nor did he play many reserves games. He struggled with a hamsrting injury all year.

I have seen him play since he was about 11 or 12 he has a lot of talent, hard at it, good strong hands and is very agile.

Im from Waikerie which is were he is from thats wy i no a fair bit about him

By the way im a Dockers supporter and i rekon all u Port supporters are a mob of ****ers, just for the record.

[Eddie Woloschek]

Originally posted by Porthos
. After that draft, I really can't see why we're keeping Kingsley -

Blasphemy. Et tu Porthos?

[Porthos]

To paraphrase from Frontline....

Adam Kingsley has my 100% support....right up to the day we sack him.

[mic59]

Originally posted by Porthos
Here's our list of players aged 25 and under as at December 31, 2003, and I've tried to make a team out of them.


F...Dew........White........S. Burgoyne
HF..C. Cornes..Tredrea......Salopek
C...Cassisi....Carr.........K. Cornes
HB..Gilham.....Chaplin......Symes
B...Peel.......Thurstans....Forster-Knight
R...Brogan.....P. Burgoyne..Ebert

Int: Cochrane, Ackland, Pettigrew, Hall
Emerg: Champion, Patfull

It looks like we'll need a ruckman next year to keep the future succession going. Apart from that it all seems pretty balanced, and not crap. A much better spread of player types than a couple of years ago - I don't think we need to worry about premiership windows overly much.

Now the only worry is that the ones of those who have little or no games, or very few in the positions named here get some experience before the present incumbents start trickling out. Of the players named White, Salopek, Cassisi, Gilham, Ebert, Chaplin, Peel, Ackland, Pettigrew, Hall, Symes, Thurstans, Patfull and Champion have played very little or not at all. S.Burgoyne and K.Cornes have mainly played one position and may be expected to play more of attacking midfield roles. I thought one of Burgoynes' best games in 2003 was v Brisbane at AAMI at half-forward when he could have won the game for us.

Certainly Cassisi should get a lot more time as Roger James may not be fit to start the season. Thurstans was going to play more last year before OP and Salopek was getting a fair number of games until he broke his arm. Hopefully Ackland will regain some form. If he can stay well I can see no reason why, he seemed to do well when he came back and then would get injured again.
Hall should be the one getting at least Guerras' time on the field but he had better have a bit more. Although it has become more obvious that he will have to prove himself. It is a truth of any sport that some players will always get more of a chance because they've proved themselves in the past and Hall will have to get Williams to notice him, I can't see him getting any favours

Of the others, only expect Ebert to get a serious run this year. Some, like Chaplin or White could get a few games due to injury or Mark Williams wanting to give them some experience, but other than that I can only see games in the pre-season cup or SANFL for this and last years' recruits.

[wooshta_9]

Thats the Freo under 25 team

B: Hayden Haddrill Thornton
HB: Woods McPharlin Grover
C: Headland Haselby M.Carr
HF: T.Longmuir Polak Webster
F: Medhurst J.Longmuir Sandilands

R: Simmonds Pavlich Schammer

INT: Walker Seigert Browne Dunn

I definetly knw which team i would rather have.

It dosent look like we need much to make our side beter give this team another year or two and we will be beating Port 100% of the time.

[Porthos]

Originally posted by wooshta_9
I definetly knw which team i would rather have.You mean the one boosted by a ton of draft picks for bombing out every year for 8 years? Not surprising, is it, considering early picked players have the better rep.

It dosent look like we need much to make our side beter give this team another year or two and we will be beating Port 100% of the time. I can't see a lot there thats going to beat us, even at under 25s level. Naming Pavlich as ruck rover is just funny and gives us two wins straight away.

[Port01]

Originally posted by wooshta_9
It dosent look like we need much to make our side beter give this team another year or two and we will be beating Port 100% of the time.

Strange things happen in Olympic years. Freo might even beat us again.

[Russian]

Originally posted by mic59
Of the others, only expect Ebert to get a serious run this year. Some, like Chaplin or White could get a few games due to injury or Mark Williams wanting to give them some experience, but other than that I can only see games in the pre-season cup or SANFL for this and last years' recruits. Salopek?

[Russian]

Originally posted by wooshta_9
Thats the Freo under 25 team

B: Hayden Haddrill Thornton
HB: Woods McPharlin Grover
C: Headland Haselby M.Carr
HF: T.Longmuir Polak Webster
F: Medhurst J.Longmuir Sandilands

R: Simmonds Pavlich Schammer

INT: Walker Seigert Browne Dunn
I reckon Port would get flogged based on those teams and what is known of the players atm, but players like White, Salopek, Ebert, Symes, Chaplin, Peel, Gilham, Thurstans, Pettigrew, Dunn, Browne, Schammer still have a lot of potential improvement in them. We are talking 5+ years time

[wooshta_9]

Quote
I reckon Port would get flogged based on those teams and what is known of the players atm, but players like White, Salopek, Ebert, Symes, Chaplin, Peel, Gilham, Thurstans, Pettigrew, Dunn, Browne, Schammer still have a lot of potential improvement in them. We are talking 5+ years time
-------------------------------------------------------

At least someone is talking sense here.

[mic59]

Originally posted by Russian
Salopek?

When I wrote my post I thought I had included Cassisi, Thurstans, Salopek, Ebert and Hall. But I looked at it again and it's not very clear. I can see Cassisi for James, at least while he's injured, Hall for Guerra, Thurstans for Paxman and Salopek for Cocky. Ebert may be an occasional replacement but more likely is that he will see a good bit of the bench.