Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

[PottSie2]

Why do they need a police investigation when they can get the prosecution launched without it? the raw data in the investigation report and the evidentiary material on which it is based can form the basis of the brief to the DPP then what does a police investigation achieve.

Also Bernadette O"Neil was acting under advice from the Solicitor General when she did not hand over the material.

Because they are investigating different issues. Also, fwa used the "we can't cooperate with the police while investigating Thomson" under advice from their lawyers ... Which was wrong as there was special provisions for the head of fwa to do so.

Edit : and also to clear Kathy Jacksons name, as FWA are clearly being obtuse regarding how many of the findings relate to the individuals themselves.

 

[bombermick]

This is not passing the buck ASIC and APRA do exactly the same thing - the FWA which is an administrative body cannot prosecute for crimes only fine for offences under the Fair Work Act

The legislative framework and standard of proof required of a criminal prosecution is entirely different to an investigation into compliance with the Registered Organisations Act - you would hope so too because when you have administrative bodies prosecuting for crimes you end up with Soviet Russia under Stalin

Yes, but not even ASIC would be so slack as to wait years before finally asking the DPP to get involved. What took them so long?!

 

[King Elvis]

There is more at stake than that or is it just crocodile tears we have been witnessing from the those of the right in regards to the trade union members who have allegedly been taken for a bloody ride by those that were voted in to look after their interest.

I don't see why Unions should have their own set of regulations as to how they operate; but can you see those in positions of authority changing that?

Also Bernadette O"Neil was acting under advice from the Solicitor General when she did not hand over the material.

Wasn't it shown that this advice directly contravened the Act?

 

[Contra Mundum]

I don't see why Unions should have their own set of regulations as to how they operate; but can you see those in positions of authority changing that?



Wasn't it shown that this advice directly contravened the Act?

Have you ever looked at the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act we have some of the most prescriptive regimes for the operation of trade unions in the Western world.

 

[Footy Smarts]

So 76 contraventions might warrant more than civil penalty?

Actually it's 105 that have been referred to the Federal court for civil action which can result in a fine at worst. The other 76 are more minor matters that don't require further action.

So far no decision has been made as to whether any constitute criminal acts (FWA is apparently not able to judge this) so that's why the report has been sent to the DPP for that determination. There's no need to go to the federal police here because the investigation and compiling of evidence has been done. It's up to the DPP whether or not to press criminal charges.

Overall this is a bizarre situation. Who knows what's going on. There's really nothing Labor can do in this.

I know many people are saying they shouldn't have pre-selected him last time but that would've been incredibly bold going up against the NSW right (a seriously sleazy organisation). This would be a complete non-issue if his seat wasn't so important. Many politicians have had allegations levelled at them previously and it never hugely hurts the party like this because they can suspend the person, sack the person or stand by them without it changing the votes in the house.

Right now Gillard can't do anything. If she refuses to stand by him that's a massive story but if she does then she gets accused of a lack of ethics. It's imperative to have his innocence presumed but once the media jumps at it nothing's going to stop them.

As for the investigation, who knows what's gone on. It does seem like a long time but much of that was even before the last election, when his seat wasn't important. If it was a deliberate go-slow then it must've started ages ago.

The only good that I can see coming from this is a dismantling of the NSW right that are a true disease on Labor. There's some very competent and good people in Labor (I'd say more competent people than in the coalition) but the whole process of governing is being destroyed by factions and powerbrokers. The NSW right has been huge in this and I'd love nothing more than to see their power dismantled.

 

[King Elvis]

Have you ever looked at the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act we have some of the most prescriptive regimes for the operation of trade unions in the Western world.

How does their governance and reporting compare to a regular corporation?

Actually it's 105 that have been referred to the Federal court for civil action which can result in a fine at worst. The other 76 are more minor matters that don't require further action.

Have a definitive source on that Smarts?

I can't find one that is certain either way.

 

[Contra Mundum]

How does their governance and reporting compare to a regular corporation?



Have a definitive source on that Smarts?

I can't find one that is certain either way.

They are virtually the same - HSU auditor had put in conditional audits for a number of years.

 

[Eagle87]

They are virtually the same - HSU auditor had put in conditional audits for a number of years.

Isn't it correct that Unions tend to sit outside much of the Corporations Law, particularly as regards Public Company's because they are "Not for Profit" entities?

I mean the local junior basketball association gets an audit and its usually caveated to death by exclusions...

The existence of an audit is, in that sense, neither here nor there. I'm more interested in why the office holders of these organisations simply can't be treated as Directors per the Corporations Law and then borrow from the ASX rules regarding disclosure ....

Given the large lump of peoples cash they get, why do they have less onerous obligations than Directors of Public Companies and Office Holders in charitable organisations that raise cash from the public?

Because on any enquiry I've ever made they have about the same level of "risk" as the Secretary at the Local Junior Basketball club, which seems a tad too little. No?

 

[Contra Mundum]

Isn't it correct that Unions tend to sit outside much of the Corporations Law, particularly as regards Public Company's because they are "Not for Profit" entities?

I mean the local junior basketball association gets an audit and its usually caveated to death by exclusions...

The existence of an audit is, in that sense, neither here nor there. I'm more interested in why the office holders of these organisations simply can't be treated as Directors per the Corporations Law and then borrow from the ASX rules regarding disclosure ....

Given the large lump of peoples cash they get, why do they have less onerous obligations than Directors of Public Companies and Office Holders in charitable organisations that raise cash from the public?

Because on any enquiry I've ever made they have about the same level of "risk" as the Secretary at the Local Junior Basketball club, which seems a tad too little. No?

I understand the prudential issues but trade union officials are elected and not appointed - I suppose the logic of it is that rank and file get a chance to vote them out. Same can't be said for public companies unless you are an institutional share holder. The public accounts are available on the RO part of the FWA website.

I also agree that this HSU bullshit demands some sort of legislated response but I am not sure what that is - if they end up with prosecuted then hard to see what the problem is

 

[King Elvis]

Depends on whether or not you believe this issue would've been dealt with properly if it wasn't for the political considerations.

 

[PottSie2]

Media Release

The CDPP has received a report from Fair Work Australia into the National Office of the Health Services Union. The report is over 1100 pages long and has been provided along with some other material.

The CDPP is not an investigation agency. It does not have investigative powers and is not able to conduct a criminal investigation. In order for a matter to be assessed as to whether a prosecution should be commenced, a criminal investigation is conducted and a brief of evidence prepared and referred to the CDPP.

Someone cue the Benny Hill music.

 

[MisterMarcus]

So after inexplicably taking years to "investigate" this, FWA has now (deliberately?) handed the DPP a report they can't use.

Brilliant....!


To think that if Thomson had simply fessed up and apologised and payed the money back when the scandal broke, the issue would be dead and buried long before now.

 

[Andre]

Someone cue the Benny Hill music.

At the very least Craig Thomson should be providing some half dressed strippers to run around the room at FWA press conferences or when their 'findings' are released. If the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by taxpayers isn't going to actually do anything productive, then at least entertain us with some half naked women.

 

[PottSie2]

At the very least Craig Thomson should be providing some half dressed strippers to run around the room at FWA press conferences or when their 'findings' are released. If the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent by taxpayers isn't going to actually do anything productive, then at least entertain us with some half naked women.

Thomson reminds me very much of Gob from Arrested Development!

 

[Visions]

So after inexplicably taking years to "investigate" this, FWA has now (deliberately?) handed the DPP a report they can't use.

Brilliant....!


To think that if Thomson had simply fessed up and apologised and payed the money back when the scandal broke, the issue would be dead and buried long before now.

Yet the VIC and NSW police who can investigate it aren't given any info from FWA at all.

The way this is traveling, it will go down as one of the biggest cover ups of all time in Australian history, all to protect Gillard and the Labor party.

 

[Oscarman]

It's all very grubby but predictable. If the ALP had the majority they had under Rudd then Thomson would have been given the arse by now. One point though - when until now has Abbott given a **** about union members money?

 

[King Elvis]

What a ****ing disgrace.

Surely there has to be somebody who can bring this matter to a head...?

 

[bombermick]

This is just going to make it worse for Labor next year. In the back of voter's minds will be the lengths FWA and the Labor party went to stonewall Thompson's removal.

It would have been better to cut him loose, even if it cost them power. Now they'll enjoy the mother of all hidings.

 

[cancat]

Why do they need a police investigation when they can get the prosecution launched without it? the raw data in the investigation report and the evidentiary material on which it is based can form the basis of the brief to the DPP then what does a police investigation achieve.

False. The DPP cannot start a criminal prosecution because FWA did not conduct a criminal investigation.

The letter referring the report to the CDPP from Fair Work Australia makes it clear that Fair Work Australia has not conducted a criminal investigation. The letter states that the report does not consider whether any person (or body) may have contravened a provision of the criminal law. The material forwarded is not a brief of evidence.

Bernadette O"Neil should be haulled over the coals by a Parliamentary comminttee for what appears to be gross incompetency. Firstly in the length of time taken to investigate the matter. And now for stating that it is up to the DPP to consider whether to raise criminal charges - but the DPP can't do this because of the nature of the FWA report.

Given that the DPP cannot either make a criminal investigation nor initiate a criminal prosecution the evidence should be passed to the police.

 

[Dry Rot]

False. The DPP cannot start a criminal prosecution because FWA did not conduct a criminal investigation.



Bernadette O"Neil should be haulled over the coals by a Parliamentary comminttee for what appears to be gross incompetency. Firstly in the length of time taken to investigate the matter. And now for stating that it is up to the DPP to consider whether to raise criminal charges - but the DPP can't do this because of the nature of the FWA report.

Given that the DPP cannot either make a criminal investigation nor initiate a criminal prosecution the evidence should be passed to the police.

Agreed.

So the govt enacts new IR legislation under which breaches can result in civil or criminal court action and penalties. A new body FWA is set up to, among other things, investigate these possible breaches.

Allegations are made against Craig Thomson, FWA takes over 3 years to investigate it as the legal body enabled to do so, and finally produces a piece of work that is useless and cannot be used to pursue the criminal breaches it found.

An utter farce and new low point of Rudd/Gillard govt incompetence.

Which ****witted IR Minister created this pile of s**t?

 

[PottSie2]

Agreed.

So the govt enacts new IR legislation under which breaches can result in civil or criminal court action and penalties. A new body FWA is set up to, among other things, investigate these possible breaches.

Allegations are made against Craig Thomson, FWA takes over 3 years to investigate it as the legal body enabled to do so, and finally produces a piece of work that is useless and cannot be used to pursue the criminal breaches it found.

An utter farce and new low point of Rudd/Gillard govt incompetence.

Which ****witted IR Minister created this pile of s**t?

I want the Government to look at each decision from every angle.
To hold them up to the light. To examine every possibility and every question.

Maybe the same person who said this ?

 

[Keys]

Surely there has to be somebody who can bring this matter to a head...?

Well Thompson did that to start with using his credit card which is how this whole mess started in the first place

 

[Dry Rot]

Maybe the same person who said this ?

Link for quote?

 

[tazzietiger]

Agreed.

So the govt enacts new IR legislation under which breaches can result in civil or criminal court action and penalties. A new body FWA is set up to, among other things, investigate these possible breaches.

Allegations are made against Craig Thomson, FWA takes over 3 years to investigate it as the legal body enabled to do so, and finally produces a piece of work that is useless and cannot be used to pursue the criminal breaches it found.

An utter farce and new low point of Rudd/Gillard govt incompetence.

Which ****witted IR Minister created this pile of s**t?

This has turned out to be a bigger farce than what I ever expected. My main criticism of the investigation was how long it has taken but the recent developments has took it to a new level of incompetents. Even the ACTU is now trying to distance itself it seems.

 

[Dry Rot]

This has turned out to be a bigger farce than what I ever expected. My main criticism of the investigation was how long it has taken but the recent developments has took it to a new level of incompetents. Even the ACTU is now trying to distance itself it seems.

And which minister at the time created the basis for this farce?

Hopefully the NSW cops can sidestep this pile of s**t and lay charges soon over the printer Amex cards.

That case should be clear cut and won't require the FWA arse clowns or dodgy HSU records.


Mod edit - Part II of this thread is here: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=928088