Labor MP accused of rorting union credit Part II

[Contra Mundum]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Thanks C. Besides Vehicle Builders what else are her qualifications to be appointed GM or FWA and who appointed her?
I also asked about Griffith's connections with Labor and/or unions.

Handing material over: if this is quite common, why did the DPP quickly issue a statement saying they needed the evidence FWA had amassed?

How is the DPP to make an investigation without the evidence, Contra, since the FWA refuses to assist.
I would still like to know your opinion, as a lawyer, as to the advice the Sol Gen apparently gave the FWA that it does not have the power or discretion to assist police enquiries?

Would ASIC not be supplying the evidence in similar circs?

Re future resignation ...-

So far, O'Neil has relied on "advice" NOT to release the report publicly; NOT to assist with police inquiries and now NOT to supply DPP with the evidence its report is based on.

So perhaps its what she's not done that should be looked at?
and btw seeking "advice" from lawyers is a favorite ploy of govts and agencies when they want a shield for covering up. As an sure you know only too well

I just say again, since the moment O'Neil walked out the door from estimates nothing has changed. If it is others who are "managing" her or obstructing her then I would expect her to resign as a matter of principle.

Griffith is just the silk from central casting - you know Kings School, UNSW, Rosebay Rugger Club - does some admin law but is mostly an appellate court commercial boy. The same can't be said for the person advising Abetz who is a great fella but long time Liberal party connected (has been offered pre-selection a number of times) and was on the executive of the HR Nicholls society.

Look I don't want to appear that I condone or forgive any of the s**t that has happened on this - but Bernadette is the least culpable.

The whole thing is disgusting

 

[Donners]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

I would still like to know your opinion, as a lawyer, as to the advice the Sol Gen apparently gave the FWA that it does not have the power or discretion to assist police enquiries?

Presuming it is a similar process to the OPP here, they normally act on a police brief, which contains statements and evidence which would be tendered in court.

They can direct police enquiries such as recommending certain witnesses give statements or further statements, recommend expert reports and ultimately recommend charges (though the final discretion to charge is with police).

However, I think they would be well within their rights to say that what they have been presented with is not anything like a police brief, and therefore is not something they are in a proper position to give advice on.

I know that incomplete briefs forwarded for opinion are often returned to police stating that it is not in a sufficient state to give advice on, and this material is not even at that standard.

 

[tandino]

I can only imagine the meeting between the FWA and the DPP went down a little like this.

[youtube]bU6m5UqLx9M[/youtube]

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

I don't think I have ever in my entire life been as angry about something related to politics as I am about this.

Its not even about Thomson anymore, the supposed 'public servants' at FWA should see the inside of the prison cell themselves.

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Presuming it is a similar process to the OPP here, they normally act on a police brief, which contains statements and evidence which would be tendered in court.

They can direct police enquiries such as recommending certain witnesses give statements or further statements, recommend expert reports and ultimately recommend charges (though the final discretion to charge is with police).

However, I think they would be well within their rights to say that what they have been presented with is not anything like a police brief, and therefore is not something they are in a proper position to give advice on.

I know that incomplete briefs forwarded for opinion are often returned to police stating that it is not in a sufficient state to give advice on, and this material is not even at that standard.

Thanks, but my question related to the Sol Gen's (apparent) advice to FWA that it did not have power or discretion to assist police inquiries.

Receiving no assistance from Contra, I Looked up Sec 655(2)(b) of Fair Work Act 2009 to find:

Disclosure of information by FWA.

....

Disclosure that is necessary or appropriate, or likely to assist administration or enforcement

(2) The President may disclose, or authorise the disclosure of, the information if the President reasonably believes:

(b) that the disclosure is likely to assist in the administration or enforcement of a law of the Commonwealth, a State or a Territory.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/legislation/fw_act/FW_Act-04.htm#P8707_771147

!!!!!!

One assumes that Sol Gens advice boiled down to "It's only "may" so you don't have to."

I am thinking that O'Neill is not a stupid person and must know very well what she is engaged in.

However, I think they would be well within their rights to say that what they have been presented with is not anything like a police brief, and therefore is not something they are in a proper position to give advice on.

On report going to DPP, O'Neill says in her press release she is again acting on advice of Sol Gen.

Strange that Sol Gen doesn't realise that Report without evidence is useless to a DPP? Still, same Sol Gen said the Malaysian Solution would survive High Court.

This is blackly hilarious.

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Griffith is just the silk from central casting - you know Kings School, UNSW, Rosebay Rugger Club - does some admin law but is mostly an appellate court commercial boy. The same can't be said for the person advising Abetz who is a great fella but long time Liberal party connected (has been offered pre-selection a number of times) and was on the executive of the HR Nicholls society.

Look I don't want to appear that I condone or forgive any of the s**t that has happened on this - but Bernadette is the least culpable.

The whole thing is disgusting

I guess you know her. But can't buy the "stitched up" argument. She must have known when she took the job what she was getting into.

Gather from Fair Work Act the general manager is appointed by the Gov-Gen, so this means is appointed by Minister, ie the John Elliott of the Club.

Labor sinking in its own self made sewer hole.

 

[cancat]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Thanks, but my question related to the Sol Gen's (apparent) advice to FWA that it did not have power or discretion to assist police inquiries.

Receiving no assistance from Contra, I Looked up Sec 655(2)(b) of Fair Work Act 2009 to find:

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/legislation/fw_act/FW_Act-04.htm#P8707_771147

!!!!!!

One assumes that Sol Gens advice boiled down to "It's only "may" so you don't have to."

Stuart Wood SC agrees with you and goes further.

He says O'Neill's interpretation is "inconsistent with the intention of the parliament" to make unions accountable, and its intention that FWA should "disclose information to relevant police forces".

...Her position could lead to "absurd outcomes", he says, drawing a comparison to the discoveries of the activities of the Federated Ship Painters and Dockers Union.

"Do the general managers really contend that if they discovered, during the course of their investigation, the type of criminality associated with that union - namely drug importation, tax evasion, robbery, assault and murder - that they are prevented by the statute from providing such information to . . . the state or federal police forces?"


http://abetz.com.au/pdf/2012-03-12legaladvice.pdf

 

[Contra Mundum]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Stuart Wood SC agrees with you and goes further.

He says O'Neill's interpretation is "inconsistent with the intention of the parliament" to make unions accountable, and its intention that FWA should "disclose information to relevant police forces".

...Her position could lead to "absurd outcomes", he says, drawing a comparison to the discoveries of the activities of the Federated Ship Painters and Dockers Union.

"Do the general managers really contend that if they discovered, during the course of their investigation, the type of criminality associated with that union - namely drug importation, tax evasion, robbery, assault and murder - that they are prevented by the statute from providing such information to . . . the state or federal police forces?"


http://abetz.com.au/pdf/2012-03-12legaladvice.pdf

As I said Stuey Wood is a great fella but a long time Liberal apparat and H R Nicholls Society member. Kroger has been trying to get him to stand for a federal seat for years

 

[tazzietiger]

TONY Abbott has demanded Julia Gillard amend her Fair Work Act to strengthen Fair Work Australia's ability to investigate misconduct within trade unions in the wake of its handling of claims of corruption within the Health Services Union.

The Opposition Leader has also attacked the Prime Minister for refusing to intervene to expedite FWA's long-running investigation, noting that she created the body as industrial relations minister and should address its deficiencies.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-abbott-tells-pm/story-fn59niix-1226320767932

Surely there is amendments the govt could and should make to the FWA in the wake of this fiasco for it never gets repeated.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

I guess you know her. But can't buy the "stitched up" argument. She must have known when she took the job what she was getting into.

Gather from Fair Work Act the general manager is appointed by the Gov-Gen, so this means is appointed by Minister, ie the John Elliott of the Club.

Labor sinking in its own self made sewer hole.

She was working in the FWA already and was regarded as a very effective public servant - and can I reiterate - not a fan of cover ups and nepotism.

 

[Eagle87]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

As I said Stuey Wood is a great fella but a long time Liberal apparat and H R Nicholls Society member. Kroger has been trying to get him to stand for a federal seat for years

Can you actually pick a hole in the advice provided or is an attempt to diminish his advice by pointing out his background all you have?

I mean when O'Neills background and actual actions in this matter are brought up as "smear" you are dismissive of them based on your observations of her charachter but when Wood is mentioned you place greater weight on his background. A tad inconsistent methinks ...

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

She was working in the FWA already and was regarded as a very effective public servant - and can I reiterate - not a fan of cover ups and nepotism.

I understand.

Most valuable gift that Labor has bestowed on opposition apart from carbon tax. More valuable than the boats. Because it is going to continue playing heavily in NSW and Qld right through to the election with one revelation after another, one cover-up after another. And it is past the point of no return where Labor could have retrieved or ameliorated situation.
Have been struck by the sheer disgust Labor commentators like Greg O'Mahony and Troy Bramston have been heaping on govt this week.
Morgan F to F (apparently pj doesn't get tweets when the news is bad Labor primary vote down to 32. Given that the F to F overestimates Labor primary by 3% that means 29 in effect.

An incoming coalition govt will have a big mandate to overhaul FWA legislation in relation to union accountability to its members in line with public standards. And any planned workchoices scare campaign is being systematically deballed. No wonder ACTU panicking.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

Can you actually pick a hole in the advice provided or is an attempt to diminish his advice by pointing out his background all you have?

I mean when O'Neills background and actual actions in this matter are brought up as "smear" you are dismissive of them based on your observations of her charachter but when Wood is mentioned you place greater weight on his background. A tad inconsistent methinks ...

He is a good bloke and a very honorable opponent mate - I do not question Stuey's professionalism - just that the advice was not paid for - it was given for nothing. Given his background (and the fact that he charges like a wounded bull for everything else he does) why would be be giving that advice to that person

 

[Contra Mundum]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

I understand.

Most valuable gift that Labor has bestowed on opposition apart from carbon tax. More valuable than the boats. Because it is going to continue playing heavily in NSW and Qld right through to the election with one revelation after another, one cover-up after another. And it is past the point of no return where Labor could have retrieved or ameliorated situation.
Have been struck by the sheer disgust Labor commentators like Greg O'Mahony and Troy Bramston have been heaping on govt this week.
Morgan F to F (apparently pj doesn't get tweets when the news is bad Labor primary vote down to 32. Given that the F to F overestimates Labor primary by 3% that means 29 in effect.

An incoming coalition govt will have a big mandate to overhaul FWA legislation in relation to union accountability to its members in line with public standards. And any planned workchoices scare campaign is being systematically deballed. No wonder ACTU panicking.

As I said there was a group of us who lead the charge against calling the prosecutorial function, the Tribunal and the Administrative arm Fair Work Australia - now the confusion and lack of understanding on who does what will lead to the destruction of innocents including what was left of the great institution of conciliation and arbitration in this Country who are not involved in this in any way

 

[GuruJane]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

He is a good bloke and a very honorable opponent mate - I do not question Stuey's professionalism - just that the advice was not paid for - it was given for nothing.

Ah, is this why you won't give us the benefit of your opinion on Sol Gen's advice re FWA powers? Lawyers!

 

[cancat]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

He is a good bloke and a very honorable opponent mate - I do not question Stuey's professionalism - just that the advice was not paid for - it was given for nothing. Given his background (and the fact that he charges like a wounded bull for everything else he does) why would be be giving that advice to that person

All irrelevent. What part of his advice do you disagree with?

 

[Eagle87]

Re: Labor MP accused of rorting union credit

He is a good bloke and a very honorable opponent mate - I do not question Stuey's professionalism - just that the advice was not paid for - it was given for nothing. Given his background (and the fact that he charges like a wounded bull for everything else he does) why would be be giving that advice to that person

No doubt because he saw an opportunity to advance the interests of those whose views he supports....

Certainly never a consideration for anyone else doing pro bono work

That said, so what, is there anything wrong with the advice given? I mean I work in a completely different area but I reckon I could have written that advice as the facts do appear fairly straight forward.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Fair cop on the pro bono. I am the only idiot that does pro bono work that detracts from his professional career! As I say Stuey is an honourable bloke and someone you can have a beer with (the same cannot be said for some other of the amoral grubs involved in this debacle).

I think Stuart's advice is defensible from a legal point of view but I don't think he contextualised the powers in the broader context of the legislation and its objects.

 

[Dry Rot]

Noose tightens around the neck of Williamson

Health union boss losing his empire
April 8, 2012

UNIONS have moved in for the kill on the disgraced Health Services Unions boss Michael Williamson, demanding he resign immediately or be sacked. Facing allegations of corruption at the HSU, he will be dumped on Thursday as vice-president of Unions NSW and stripped of three paid board positions unless he quits first, The Sun-Herald can reveal....A separate audit being prepared by Ian Temby QC is expected to be damaging to Mr Williamson, who stood down in October after a series of revelations in The Sydney Morning Herald that he had milked the union through the abuse of credit cards and IT contracts worth $1 million a year granted to his company, United Edge.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/health-union-boss-losing-his-empire-20120407-1wi72.html

His position has been good to him and to his wife

Mr Williamson's union-appointed positions include directorships - currently suspended - at state government-related entities, First State Super, State Government Employees (SGE) Credit Union and State Water Corporation, a $34,000 a year position he was appointed to by former NSW Treasurer Eric Roozendaal just before Labor lost office. Mr Williamson's union-appointed boardroom roles add more than $100,000 a year to his reported $350,000 a year as general secretary of the HSU The Temby report is said to contain revelations that a further $400,000 a year has been flowing from the HSU to a company owned by his wife Julie for ''secretarial services''.

Looks like everyone is doing something about these scum except the Gillard and her govt...

 

[King Elvis]

Those Board positions should all be looked at; my Labor mate, mid 20s, is on a couple - about $20k per annum for a dozen or so meetings a year.

 

[Visions]

Noose tightens around the neck of Williamson

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/health-union-boss-losing-his-empire-20120407-1wi72.html

His position has been good to him and to his wife



Looks like everyone is doing something about these scum except the Gillard and her govt...

Too bad for Williamson that he isn't a Labor member in the house of reps. Would then be a guarantee that nothing would happen to him.

 

[noddy]

Too bad for Williamson that he isn't a Labor member in the house of reps. Would then be a guarantee that nothing would happen to him.

What a strange thing to say.

 

[Eagle87]

What a strange thing to say.

Surely you can't be serious?

 

[Visions]

What a strange thing to say.

Why? You can only go on current history, and that speaks volumes.

If the situation changes I will happily withdraw my statement. Until then it stands.

 

[harmesy 37]

So in summary we have a corrupt and morally bankrupt govt (oh and incompetent on everything from managing the GFC - huge waste of excess and reckless spending - to pink batts, to the broadband etc) that now has wiped its grimy little hands clear of the Craig Thomson affair as

1) the fair work tribunal (with high ranking officials selected by Gillard) handing the investigation over to a govt dept that doesn't have the power to act and

2) deciding it doesn't want to see the police investigation on the advice of a govt attorney general.

morally bankrupt....that is the only conclusion one can come to.