Lance Armstrong formally charged with doping

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blackcat said:
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636212.htm
was involved with Hardie's doping conference at worlds in 2010. Had long discussions on the phone with Vinnicombe about a Chinese rider, MA Haijun, who won a tt B worlds in about 2006.

MV was a coach at an equivalent VIS institute in China. Think about it, 50 plus provinces, 50 plus institutes for sport. Funny how he got kicked out. He told me some stuff, and the regime that Liu Jiang would have been taking. Just look at this high jumper's jaw, 12 years ago. Yes. I said high-jumper. Enter RussellEbertHandball with the bio, take it away Russ
MV's wife is also chinese. (used to be married to a US track cyclist, think she competed for Australia when married, I know her name, cant remember atm)
Matty Lloyd the cyclist lives in the same apartment building of my mom! Told him in the elevator hoped everything was aok for next year, and Whitey is not a bloody scapegoat.
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I'm not entirely sure why you've quoted my post to say this...
 

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ok, rickyp here is where I was at.

I think Armstrong as symbol of hope is valid. Not the person. But the catalyst. The fact that he was a fraud and took dozens of 150k speaking engagements on Livestrong dime, means little, the criminality speaks for itself. But people got inspiration, that ultimately resided inside themself, not an external locus of control, tho they thought so at the time.

For me, Armstrong and the cycling fanbase, were mutually exclusive. Cycling + Armstrongs army, during his reign. Then they went away. The bike industry and statistics of sales, do not show any material change in the market that existed before Armstrong. the Lemond era. In Australia, cycling is indeed the new golf. Did not need to quote the Orica ceo for that patently obvious acknowledgement.

Some stayed interested in cycling after the Armstrong epoch. Concede that. Also, many have been lost because of this Festina mkII, and the greatest fraud in the history of sport, and the words of the indefatigable Betsy Andreau.

 
blackcat said:
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636212.htm
was involved with Hardie's doping conference at worlds in 2010. Had long discussions on the phone with Vinnicombe about a Chinese rider, MA Haijun, who won a tt B worlds in about 2006.

MV was a coach at an equivalent VIS institute in China. Think about it, 50 plus provinces, 50 plus institutes for sport. Funny how he got kicked out. He told me some stuff, and the regime that Liu Jiang would have been taking. Just look at this high jumper's jaw, 12 years ago. Yes. I said high-jumper. Enter RussellEbertHandball with the bio, take it away Russ
MV's wife is also chinese. (used to be married to a US track cyclist, think she competed for Australia when married, I know her name, cant remember atm)
Matty Lloyd the cyclist lives in the same apartment building of my mom! Told him in the elevator hoped everything was aok for next year, and Whitey is not a bloody scapegoat.
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Which high jumper blackcat ?? I probably don't know their profile - don't know too many high jumpers stuff, but I know where to find it on the IAAF website.

Vinnicombe was married to Lucy Tyler-Sharman. I'm not sure if she was a nut job or the whole cycling triangle of her, Charlie Walsh and Kathy Watt would drive anyone around the bend.

Vinnicombe looked a sad figure in last night's report. He looked like a dispirited man. Not sure if that is the fall out from cycling or more personal issues are involved.
 
http://reason.com/archives/2012/11/17/defending-lance-armstrong

Savulescu would accord

and Jason Mazanov, who gave a good lecture for Martin Hardies doping symposium in 2011
Jason Mazanov (School of Business, UNSW)
Dr Jason Mazanov, a Senior Lecturer with UNSW, research focus looks at how social science can inform the management of drugs in sport. He is editor of the book “Towards a Social Science of Drugs in Sport”. Dr Mazanov is currently working on how managing doping in society (e.g. brain doping by university students) can inform the second generation of policies governing drugs in sport. Building the Second Generation of Policies to Manage Drugs in Sport
The wisdom learned through the anti-doping policy experiment provides a platform for developing a second generation of policies to manage the role of drugs in sport. For example, the anti-doping policy focus on legalistic “detect and punish” prioritises the integrity of sport above that of athlete welfare. This policy provides little scope for evidence-based, best practice drug treatment or the difference between doping and licit (e.g. alcohol) and illicit (e.g. ecstasy) drug use. Alternative policy paradigms (and their implications) are offered with different foci, including health-based harm minimisation, muscular Christianity, and returning “fun and joy” to be the central value of sport.
 
Ah yeah Liu was a national junior high jump champion.

According to David Wallechinsky and his complete book of the Olympics 2012 edition, he won a national high jump championship in 4th grade after being selected for a junior sports school. He then was asked to leave after they did bone tests on him and it showed he wouldn't grow tall enough to be a high jumper.

From 2001 the Chinese Institute of Sport Science filmed almost every one of his races often with 3 simultaneous cameras.

From his profile - his first time is as a 16 year old.
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/pr-of-china/xiang-liu#progression

He is 190cm which is 9cms more than swede Stefan Holm who won the high jump in 2004 at Athens and a few world /world indoor championships. Most gold and minor medalists at Olympic and world champs tend to be between 195cms and 200cms.
 
From last night's 7.30 story

As reporter Cooper was introducing Hardie, Hardie was reading his book
"I WISH I WAS TWENTY ONE NOW - beyond Doping in the Australian Peleton. Martin Hardie David Shilbury Claudio Bozzi and Ianto Ware. Has anyone read it??

I found the following links
download the book at
http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

A couple of articles before Hardie and co. released their report/book and their conference in September 2010.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/northern...institutionalised-corruption-both-or-neither/

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/northern...-man-beyond-doping-in-the-australian-peleton/

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636212.htm

HAYDEN COOPER: Academic Martin Hardie was funded by the Federal Government to study the level of doping in Australian cycling.

MARTIN HARDIE, LAW, DEAKIN UNIVERSITY: All of the traditional rationales for anti-doping - that it was bad for your health or it was about a level playing field, it was about the spirit of sport - most of the riders I spoke to just thought that was rubbish.

HAYDEN COOPER: He spoke anonymously to 22 riders. Their accounts are compelling.

ACTOR PLAYING CYCLIST (Re-enactment): If there is what 140 guys on the start line, I guarantee you 140 are on the gear. Maybe 10 weren't. Do ya understand? So, like, why would you go to a shootout without a gun? And that's how they think.

ACTOR PLAYING CYCLIST II (Re-enactment): I just know that they were the probably the first team that did blood bags back a long, long, long time ago. I know they were giving EPO systematically in 1995. The doctor would walk in, syringe in your arm, walk out, have a good sleep.

Did you ever worry about your health?

ACTOR PLAYING CYCLIST II (Re-enactment): F*** yeah. F*** yeah. S*** yeah.

MARTIN HARDIE: A number of people said to me, "The administrators don't care about us. We're just commodities that are expendable. And unless we toe the line, we're just out of the system." So, they felt that a lot of the rhetoric of anti-doping was really about window dressing and not really about protecting them and their careers.
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http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3636212.htm
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Ah yeah Liu was a national junior high jump champion.

According to David Wallechinsky and his complete book of the Olympics 2012 edition, he won a national high jump championship in 4th grade after being selected for a junior sports school. He then was asked to leave after they did bone tests on him and it showed he wouldn't grow tall enough to be a high jumper.

From 2001 the Chinese Institute of Sport Science filmed almost every one of his races often with 3 simultaneous cameras.

From his profile - his first time is as a 16 year old.
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/pr-of-china/xiang-liu#progression

He is 190cm which is 9cms more than swede Stefan Holm who won the high jump in 2004 at Athens and a few world /world indoor championships. Most gold and minor medalists at Olympic and world champs tend to be between 195cms and 200cms.
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Stefan Holm had a 9 foot noggin on a two foot frame
 

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Nice article in today's Weekend Australian magazine by Sunday Times journo David Walsh. It was a copy of his article 3 Sunday's ago detailing how he didn't believe Armstrong way back in 1999 when he won his first TDF, him writing that and getting offside with the Armstrong camp from then.

If the link doesn't work because of News Ltd blocking it with their digital pass, just copy the first paragraph into Google and do a search and click on the Australian's link. You can't dodge the Sunday Times link and the velonews link has a couple of paragraphs and then links you to the Sunday Times. The Sunday Times article is titled Lance, the lies and me but the Oz's article is titled

Blood, sweat and lies

IT IS 3.30 on a grey Monday afternoon and I look at a phone that is going to ring. It hasn't stopped all day. It won't stop. "About Lance Armstrong and today's news, are you available to do an interview?" Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, the US, Ireland, Holland, Belgium and so many closer to home. No, no, no, yes, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, no.

This is the day, October 22, 2012, that Armstrong has been officially declared an outcast, banished from the sport by his own people - cycling's governing body, Union Cycliste Internationale. Its president, Pat McQuaid, said the former seven-time Tour de France winner "has no place in cycling".....

Blood, sweat and lies

I hadn't heard this story before

For 13 years, this story has been a central part of my life - from the moment on the road to Saint-Flour in the Auvergne during the 1999 Tour de France that it became clear Armstrong was a fraud. That morning, the 25-year-old French rider Christophe Bassons, nicknamed "Monsieur Propre" (Mr Clean) for his anti-doping stance, left the Tour - although it is more true to say the Tour abandoned him. They were dirty, he was not, but he was the problem. They ground him down, ran him out of town. At the head of the lynch mob, lacking only a white hood and length of rope, was Armstrong. He enjoyed his enforcer role, chasing Bassons down the day after the finish to Sestriere: "He spoke to me in English," said Bassons, "but I understood. 'That's enough. You are bad for cycling. It would be better if you went home. Give up the sport. You are a small rider, you know. F... you.'?"
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and his story at the end of the tour

In this fight, I knew the side to be on. On the day Armstrong won his first Tour de France, I wrote a piece for The Sunday Times suggesting the achievement of the cancer survivor should not be applauded: "There are times when it is right to celebrate, but there are other occasions when it is equally correct to keep your hands by your sides and wonder ... [and in this case] the need for inquiry is overwhelming."

Many readers were unimpressed. Not one appreciated my sceptical reaction to Armstrong's victory. But right now, on this grey Monday, I feel no joy.
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He questions his colleagues desire to dig

The thing about the Armstrong scandal was that, even in 1999, the year of his first victory, you didn't need to be Woodward or Bernstein to get it. On the afternoon the American delivered his first great performance in the Alps, the stage to Sestriere, many journalists in the press room laughed at the ease with which Armstrong ascended. He climbed with the nonchalance of the well-doped. I walked through the hedgerows of journalists, stopping to speak with Philippe Bouvet, chief cycling writer of the sports daily L'Equipe. "Doping," said Bouvet, "is an old story in cycling. Over the last few years the manipulation of riders' blood has changed the nature of competition. What we are getting now is a caricature of sport. It is killing cycling." Benoit Hopquin, a journalist with the French newspaper Le Monde, was tipped off that Armstrong had tested positive for cortisone, and that it had been covered up. Cortisone is a banned drug, but can be used by riders with a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE). Le Monde had been shown Armstrong's doping control form and he didn't have a TUE. They ran with the story. Union Cycliste Internationale denied there had been a positive test, and said Armstrong had a TUE because of a saddle sore. At a news conference, Hopquin tried to pin down Armstrong on whether he had this exemption and when it had been issued: perfectly reasonable questions, dismissed with disdain by Armstrong. "Mr Le Monde," he said to Hopquin, "are you calling me a liar or a doper?" The truth was he was both, but at that moment he wore the maillot jaune, the famed yellow jersey, and Hopquin was intimidated. He didn't reply. Not one person in a room full of journalists had a follow-up question; instead, there were smiles and appreciation for the authority with which Armstrong had shot down the journalist.
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and

The bullying of Bassons and Hopquin spoke of arrogance. Armstrong needed to be aggressive because, a year before, French customs and police had targeted the Tour and found stashes of banned drugs almost everywhere they looked. Shamed, Tour de France organisers said the 1999 race would be "The Tour of Renewal". On the eve of the Tour, the organiser, Jean-Marie Leblanc, said the scandal of the drug-addled '98 race would inspire a better future. With less doping, speeds would be reduced and we would again be able to believe in the Tour de France. But long before Armstrong would ride down the Champs-Elysees in the yellow jersey it was certain the '99 race would be the fastest in history. Through the first two weeks of the race, virtually every French newspaper reflected the scepticism that was everywhere. Each day, L'Equipe found a new way of saying it didn't believe in Armstrong. It referred to him as "The Extra-Terrestrial" - and not as a compliment. But L'Equipe is owned by ASO, the same company that owns the Tour de France, and after Armstrong had been subjected to a tough Pierre Ballester interview, Leblanc arranged a meeting with Jean-Michel Rouet, L'Equipe's cycling editor. Leblanc felt the Ballester interview read like a police interrogation, and made his feelings known to Rouet. From that moment, L'Equipe softened its attitude to Armstrong. Bouvet, Ballester and Rouet, however, wouldn't change their view that he was doping.
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But Walsh met Armstrong in 1993

Already, my relationship with Armstrong had become personal. Six years earlier, I had interviewed him in the first week of his debut Tour. We talked for three hours in a hotel garden outside Grenoble and got on well. He was a Texan in France, so uncool you warmed to him: if his American gaucheness didn't win you over, his ambition did. Nothing was going to get in his way. I would follow his results in the next three Tours and it wasn't hard to tell what kind of rider he was: strong on flat roads, decent on the shorter climbs, but average in solo races against the clock and physiologically unable to climb with the best in the high mountains. In four shots at the Tour - before being diagnosed with testicular cancer in late 1996 - his best finish was 36th.

I hoped he could recover and return to the sport. But when he came back, and rode much better in the mountains than he'd ever done before, I didn't believe it. At The Sunday Times there was initial excitement at the cancer victim doing so well, but once I'd made the case for scepticism, the newspaper encouraged me in every way. On the day Armstrong won his first Tour de France the headline was "Flawed fairytale". I was pleased, but not our readers. From the 45 letters received, only one offered encouragement. One reader wrote: "I believe Armstrong's victory was amazing, a triumph in sport and life. I believe he sets a good example for all of us ... Sometimes people get a cancer of the spirit. And maybe that says a lot about them." That expression haunted me - "Cancer of the spirit".
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There lot's more I could just cut and paste most of the article.
 
Thanks for posting that article. It says a lot about Armstrong and I would urge any person who still claims la as a hero, to read it. What la said about Walsh's son goes way beyond the line and shows what he would be willing to say abput people to claim thr highground.
 
blackcat said:
RussellEbertHandball http://sgp1.paddington.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_431.asp
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Thanks for the link blackcat. Had a quick skim read, will give it a longer read in the next couple of days. I reckon I watched the 2nd half of the program when it was on - probably flicking between Sports World with Bruce and Sunday back then. Sport Minister Jackie Kelly and US drug Tsar General Barry McCaffrey words sound familiar, but I can't recall the IGF1 discussion and Gro-Prep stuff.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Thanks for the link blackcat. Had a quick skim read, will give it a longer read in the next couple of days. I reckon I watched the 2nd half of the program when it was on - probably flicking between Sports World with Bruce and Sunday back then. Sport Minister Jackie Kelly and US drug Tsar General Barry McCaffrey words sound familiar, but I can't recall the IGF1 discussion and Gro-Prep stuff.
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world champ would be werner reiterer
 
RU486 said:
National Sprint Champion Matt Shirvington?

Easily the most comprehensive and honest interview regarding PED's I've read. Great article!
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Nah Shirvington was the current Australian Champion when that interview went to air in 2000 (97-98 + 98-99 + 99-00 champ), plus he didn't go to Atlanta

REPORTER: This former Australian national sprint champion, who represented his country at Commonwealth Games, world titles and was part of the team that competed in Atlanta, reveals his own use of IGF1.....
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So sprint champ = 100m or 200m or 400m

In order I'd say it was either of the following as these 3 are the only national sprint champs who went to Atlanta.

Dean Capobianco - done for drugs - 100m champ 90-91+92-93, 200m champ 90-91+91-92+95-96
Stephen Brimacombe - 100m champ 96-97, 200m champ 93-94+94-95
Paul Greene 400m 90-91+94-95
 
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