Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[inyourfacedunk]

But again I ask WHY AM I WRONG?

Why are you right though?
You make a lot of points, but where is the reasoning (backed up by solid facts)?

It isn't as simple as just stating your opinion and passing it off as fact. If that were the case, the world would still be flat and we'd all still be burning people at the stake for witchcraft.

There comes a time when you need to delve a little deeper and express your opinions with a little more information as to how or why you came up with them.

Sure, you could just tell us that you don't need to justify yourself. But the problem is you keep responding to everyone trying to justify yourself, while not actually bringing anything to the table.

ivan rassmussen and Blzzrd summed it up pretty nicely to be honest when responding to your points (which in my opinion don't seem to be well thought out and are very reactionary).

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Gerald Heanly would be proud.

Thanks Temple, I just choked on my drink at my desk! Very funny. But I thought his name is Greg Heanly??!!

 

[Mattdougie]

Why are you right though?
You make a lot of points, but where is the reasoning (backed up by solid facts)?

It isn't as simple as just stating your opinion and passing it off as fact. If that were the case, the world would still be flat and we'd all still be burning people at the stake for witchcraft.

There comes a time when you need to delve a little deeper and express your opinions with a little more information as to how or why you came up with them.

Sure, you could just tell us that you don't need to justify yourself. But the problem is you keep responding to everyone trying to justify yourself, while not actually bringing anything to the table.

ivan rassmussen and Blzzrd summed it up pretty nicely to be honest when responding to your points (which in my opinion don't seem to be well thought out and are very reactionary).

I've never said my points are correct and at several stages have said I may indeed be wrong but like any other of here I am entitled to my opinion.

But to extrapolate on some of my points

1- our club needs all the "selling"it can get and although I'm more than happy to admit Macca is a very good public speaker he is quite te opposite in selling the club. Hardly up the media and when he is it's all very measured and constant. I accept that is his style but that doesn't help us. He struggle for members and in this case he isn't helping. Like or dislike Wallace his head was everywhere and therefore so was our club.

2 - promotion of club- as above and I think it's fair to say that our struggling membership numbers are also proof of this

3 - gameplan - forget what I think, as many on here think we don't have one as do think we do. So such variations in opinion again prove that many are on differ bet pages and therefore nothing concrete can be seen. As I've said sit down and watch all out games this year then do the same with stkilda. Watch the defensive running patterns and setups then watch our and then come back and talk on this point

4 - game day coaching - I think even the most due hard supporter of Macca will say this is not a strength and was apparent on Sunday. I think that it's no excuse that he is simply learning the game he has been in the system a LONG time with some very good coaches to be at the level he is

5 - tactics - as above and I think that the non development of a base gameplan IMO shows this is won't her weakness

6 - recruiting - "mature" player recruiting has been poor at best and most of those have been on his recommendation. Lower Goodes Dickson Young etc all ok but are any good?? Why recruit such players and not just bring in more kids if you can't get quality

Just a quick run down but I think that's enough for everyone to start pondering don't you?

 

[King Harold]

I've never said my points are correct and at several stages have said I may indeed be wrong but like any other of here I am entitled to my opinion.

But to extrapolate on some of my points

1- our club needs all the "selling"it can get and although I'm more than happy to admit Macca is a very good public speaker he is quite te opposite in selling the club. Hardly up the media and when he is it's all very measured and constant. I accept that is his style but that doesn't help us. He struggle for members and in this case he isn't helping. Like or dislike Wallace his head was everywhere and therefore so was our club.

2 - promotion of club- as above and I think it's fair to say that our struggling membership numbers are also proof of this

3 - gameplan - forget what I think, as many on here think we don't have one as do think we do. So such variations in opinion again prove that many are on differ bet pages and therefore nothing concrete can be seen. As I've said sit down and watch all out games this year then do the same with stkilda. Watch the defensive running patterns and setups then watch our and then come back and talk on this point

4 - game day coaching - I think even the most due hard supporter of Macca will say this is not a strength and was apparent on Sunday. I think that it's no excuse that he is simply learning the game he has been in the system a LONG time with some very good coaches to be at the level he is

5 - tactics - as above and I think that the non development of a base gameplan IMO shows this is won't her weakness

6 - recruiting - "mature" player recruiting has been poor at best and most of those have been on his recommendation. Lower Goodes Dickson Young etc all ok but are any good?? Why recruit such players and not just bring in more kids if you can't get quality

Just a quick run down but I think that's enough for everyone to start pondering don't you?

Not much I disagree with , but this game plan B/S is way over rated. Its amazing how good a game plan looks with good players everywhere.
As for Mature agers , you left out Stevens , who could end at least a B+ player.
As for the others ,there will always be busts , but we have very few re-cycled compared with other clubs. Dickson and Young may still prove to be at least good depth players. Have a feeling Dickson could be very good in a Hawthorn or Geelong side right now.

 

[immortalmike]

Thanks Temple, I just choked on my drink at my desk! Very funny. But I thought his name is Greg Heanly??!!

It's Gerard Heatley.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

You are clutching at straws and do not offer any alternative solutions. Not every coach is all over the media, even if their club is not doing well. I don't watch many footy shows and no FTA, so I've only seen Thompson regularly, and a couple of others occasionally. I'm sure Macca was not hired to be out on the hustings, like a politician.

With recruiting, all the players named have played roles to tide us over. Stevens and Crameri I wouldn't call poor choices. I also think Dickson could be very good. Which players should we have recruited - be realistic - that we COULD have?

"Bring in more kids" sounds so simple, you must know that's not how it works. As has been pointed out, with the reduced drafts, recruiters have been at their wits' end to find players to suit their teams' needs, as well having the required talent.

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Go back and listen to what derm said!

He said the players we have in there will be the best on the league.

In THIS case he wasn't referring to coaching and neither was I.

Change the coach the players will be the same therefore in Derms point same result

So why do you want to change the coach?

 

[Anja_Nees]

In the AFL the buck stops with the coach, he chooses his staff, he directs them what kind of players he wants and he signs off on the decisions.

If McCartney came out and blamed Scarlett for our defensive problems last week would anyone accept that? At the end of the day Eade has to take responsibility for those poor drafts because it didn't just happen once.

If we win a flag or don't win a flag the buck will stop with McCartney and passing the buck to the support team won't change the fact that he chose his team and he either managed the whole group right or wrong. Eade chose his staff and whether they let him down or he just wasn't able to get the right set of people the buck still stops with him.

Eade didn't choose Clayton and I doubt very much he had the authority to sack him. The coach doesn't pick the recruiter or list manager (especially one that has been there six years by the time the coach is appointed). At best he might have a say when they are appointed and Eade obviously didn't. The coach does however pick their coaching panel so if Scarlett buggered our key position players the blame absolutely would fall to McCartney, just as the blame would have fallen to Eade if one of his assistants were somehow to blame for us losing a prelim, not that we would ever know.

I will happily blame a coach for being outcoached on game day but recruiting (except where thy are recruiting players from other clubs, where they will have seen the player at AFL level) is not something I blame them for. It doesn't mean they won't be sacked for it but the coach can only work with what he has. The only thing I criticise Eade for is sometimes playing favourites and perhaps selecting his team on talent rather than effort. I don't think that was our problem in the prelims but in 2011 it was a joke that Hudson was often played ahead of Minson. Broadly I don't actually think we would have done any better under another coach with the list he had.

 

[paulveed]

You didn't say anything about vids....

....heres one to cheer up the cranky ones on this thread

Ahhh Trent, when I first saw that you had posted this clip, I thought...you beauty, someone has found that Monty Python classic skit...Bl**dy Fantastic !!!
But no sadly, only the trite and tired original. How sad. I thought everyone's day was about to be made. Instead, just plain old ho-hum.

 

[Proffessor]

As previously stated, I think the attempts to break down the assessment of McCartney's performance into different factors is misleading and counterproductive.

As anyone (or at least most people) with coaching experience would know, you can't separate things like tactics and team make up. They are inherently linked. If they don't match up then you have made a mistake as the coach. Recruitment and development are also linked. It doesn't matter who the recruiters pick if they are not managed well once they have made the list. By the way, no one can genuinely say that we have recruited or developed well until it is demonstrated through improved team results.

Coaches need to make a lot of judgement calls, some will be right, some will be wrong. It is the overall team results that tell you whether the balance is positive or negative.

Before people come back with the 'but we have been rebuilding so you can't judge by results' line. I reiterate that no 'tear down rebuilding coach' has ever won a flag (no Clarkson didn't, as previously discussed), and there should be no dispensation provided for taking a strategy which really only delivers excuses for underperformance. In my opinion, the decision to 'rebuild' was an enormously bad call for the club, even though it apparently delivered enough excuses for McCartney to keep his job and extend his contract.

 

[Bazza Bulldog]

Before people come back with the 'but we have been rebuilding so you can't judge by results' line. I reiterate that no 'tear down rebuilding coach' has ever won a flag (no Clarkson didn't, as previously discussed), and there should be no dispensation provided for taking a strategy which really only delivers excuses for underperformance. In my opinion, the decision to 'rebuild' was an enormously bad call for the club, even though it apparently delivered enough excuses for McCartney to keep his job and extend his contract.

What qualifies as a rebuild? Players that the Hawks recruited from the time Clarkson was appointed who were part of the 2008 flag:

Birchall
Dew
Ellis
Franklin
Gilham
Guerra
Lewis
Renouf
Rioli
Roughead
Young

50% of premiership team does this mean a rebuild? If we are discussing franchise players I'd argue that the bolded players above were critical to both flags and are elite.

You are entitled to your opinion , but if we should not have re-built I'm still waiting for you to choose from the players below who you'd still want on the list from 2011 (I'll give you Ward, Cross and Lake ... though Ward was gone before Macca).

Primary list:
Dylan Addison
Daniel Cross
Nathan Djerkurra
Lindsay Gilbee
Barry Hall
Ryan Hargrave
Josh Hill
Tom Hill
Andrew Hooper
Ben Hudson
Brian Lake
Lukas Markovic
Brodie Moles
James Mulligan
Sam Reid
Jayden Schofield
Justin Sherman
Zeph Skinner
Brennan Stack
Patrick Veszpremi
Callan Ward

Rookie list:
Ed Barlow
Mitch Hahn
Matthew Panos
Eddie Prato

 

[wb_age]

Hawthorn bottomed out,cut there list deep and finished low enough to get a priority pick to land Roughead and Franklin in the same draft. No doubting they were rebuilding.

And if that's not enough to show they were rebuilding, just look at there results for the 04 & 05 seasons

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tg-hawthorn-hawks?year=2004

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tg-hawthorn-hawks?year=2005

 

[Misunderstood]

Straight Facts.......Is everyone getting nervous with Macca Yes/No???? With a contract extension???

 

[Lex22]

Not much I disagree with , but this game plan B/S is way over rated. Its amazing how good a game plan looks with good players everywhere.
As for Mature agers , you left out Stevens , who could end at least a B+ player.
As for the others ,there will always be busts , but we have very few re-cycled compared with other clubs. Dickson and Young may still prove to be at least good depth players. Have a feeling Dickson could be very good in a Hawthorn or Geelong side right now.

Totally agree on Dickson. IMO he could quite easily be a 40 goal a year forward in a really good side at the moment.

 

[Proffessor]

There is a difference between building and "re-building', which in AFL terms has a tear down phase associated with it. Teams are building all the time so it doesn't warrant being named as a strategy. The 're-build' badge is typically associated with a period of going backwards (dropping down the ladder intentionally?) in the short term with the view of getting better in the longer term.

As pointed out here many times, Clarkson took over Hawthorn when they were at a low ebb (and yes he cut a bit when he took over), but he still improved the club's results and ladder position in his first season. There was no going down to go up, just a movement up.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

There is a difference between building and "re-building', which in AFL terms has a tear down phase associated with it. Teams are building all the time so it doesn't warrant being named as a strategy. The 're-build' badge is typically associated with a period of going backwards (dropping down the ladder intentionally?) in the short term with the view of getting better in the longer term.

I don't agree with this. Tear down is how some clubs do it, but not all. There does not have to be an intentional drop down the ladder.

 

[Butane]

Hawthorn bottomed out,cut there list deep and finished low enough to get a priority pick to land Roughead and Franklin in the same draft. No doubting they were rebuilding.

And if that's not enough to show they were rebuilding, just look at there results for the 04 & 05 seasons

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tg-hawthorn-hawks?year=2004

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tg-hawthorn-hawks?year=2005

These links only prove that Hawthorn were at their lowest ebb when Clarkson took over. From there they went up. Call it lucky timing by Clarkson to get the gig at the right time but don't compare what Clarkson did at Hawthorn to what Macca is doing now.

Maybe it proves that a club can have a total rebuild to premiership but it doesn't prove a coach can bottom out a team and then take the same team to a premiership.

Regardless, where we are now - we have no choice but to hold the line. I'm happy for him to keep coaching now but the acid will be on if we aren't out of the bottom 4 by this time next season - when our membership numbers are at dire levels and sponsors leave for more successful clubs. Will we even be able to pay him out?

My greatest fear is being trapped in a cycle of good list but not enough money to win it. Been there. Done that.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Regardless, where we are now - we have no choice but to hold the line. I'm happy for him to keep coaching now but the acid will be on if we aren't out of the bottom 4 by this time next season - when our membership numbers are at dire levels and sponsors leave for more successful clubs. Will we even be able to pay him out?

My greatest fear is being trapped in a cycle of good list but not enough money to win it. Been there. Done that.

As a professed wait-and-see fence-sitter, I am happy for him to keep coaching too Butane. Changing coach at any stage during this season is pointless.

However, I would suggest that if we finish bottom 4 this season, the knives will be out, and survival into next season for the coach would be 50/50.

I don't think money, in terms of player payments anyway, are an issue for us atm. However, as you say, if we lose more members and sponsors at season's end, we will be in dire trouble. With membership numbers dropping this year, if we finish bottom 4, the whisperings about merger/relocation to Tassie/etc will re-appear. Sadly, we are never far away from those circumstances, and only a flag would hold them off for more than a few years, IMO.

 

[Reptilia]

Surely everyone could tell that Proffessor was trolling?

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Straight Facts.......Is everyone getting nervous with Macca Yes/No???? With a contract extension???

Do you want a fact, or an opinion??

In my opinion, the extension could have waited until mid-season in 2014.

As a fact, I am not nervous about him coaching, at this stage. That may well change by 3/4 of the way through the season, but I'm not in the sack-the-coach camp (as I am also not in the keep the coach at all costs camp).

 

[dcs84]

So much of the discussion swirling around the Western Bulldog's coach comes down to the individual perceptions, leanings, and rationalisations of us all. I'm not a fan of Brendan McCartney as a coach, I don't know him in any other capacity. There are many factors feeding into my reasons for not being a supporter of his. Firstly, I don't buy into the 'Cult of the Coach' I believe, rightly or wrongly, that a coach can't take an untalented team and make them Champions, but I do believe that a coach can hold back a talented side. It is this that I think Brendan McCartney is doing to our current list. I have never liked coaches who hang their hat on a rigid 'system', and I believe that is what McCartney is doing with this current iteration of the Bulldogs. I don't believe it is the game plan, or lack there of, I think it is our playing style. The mantra of winning the contested ball seems to sap players of their spontaneity, and their natural instincts for the game. I see players with eyes, primarily not solely, for the man, not the ball. This results, or appears to result, in the opposition either winning the ball, being awarded a penalty, or releasing a teammate, the result for us is they cough it up (and starts all over with opposition going for the ball), there's a stoppage, or we get possession. This style of football is also particularly sapping, "Defence is always more tiring than offence" and the players appear to lose heart (although I will admit that hasn't happened too much since the end of last year) when the effort doesn't reap the results.

The problem solving the quandary of 'The Coach as the Auteur' is that you have only two valid options: Sack or Support, which, naturally becomes divisive. I agree that sacking is extreme, it is a shame we can't relegate a poorly performing coach to the reserves like you can a stagnating player. I guess the other elephant in the room at the moment is the win/loss percentage under McCartney's reign....regardless of whether you are a supporter or detractor it would be difficult to mount an argument that he is on the plus side of expectations.

 

[maddog37]

I am a fan of Macca and the ideology he applies to footy and overall player/person development. Having said that I am starting to second guess whether he will be successful.

Some of his media work lately has consisted largely of cliches and half intimated intelligence. It is like the inner realm of the club is made up of Stonecutters and we are all Homer. Lack of info on injuries and why players are not getting games etc adds to the frustration.

Telling us that we didn't get the game on our terms or play the way we wanted is really telling us nothing. Obviously we lost hence it wasn't on our terms. Tell us why.

I'm pretty sure I am just getting impatient and I am happy to have him as coach especially when comparing him to many other senior coaches out there currently. But..........

 

[BRWB]

I guess the other elephant in the room at the moment is the win/loss percentage under McCartney's reign....regardless of whether you are a supporter or detractor it would be difficult to mount an argument that he is on the plus side of expectations.

Personally my expectations of us have been low since McCartney took over and win loss is about right, actually made a fair bit of money backing us to lose by 60+ in 2012. So I find it easy to argue we are about where I thought we'd be.

This year we are about par, we beat Tiges unexpectedly and lost to Blues (I had this as a 50/50 at year's start) and backed Blues due to the media shitstorm around them. Honestly don't see what the fuss is about. We are about where most reasonable people would have predicted this year.

On player development:

Players like Minson, J Grant, R Griffen, Libba, J Roughhead have got a lot better. Other players have maintained like Murph, Morris and Boyd. Some haven't developed like Cordy.

And again you get that on every list some go well, some don't. I don't think its exceptional either way on development so nothing to see there. Look at Scott Watters, Mark Neeld and Dean Brogan, easy to see how bad they were. Macca ahead of them. Not as good as Port but he comes out of the same system as their coach.

Like many have said the jury is out. I do like the style Macca is implementing of contested ball - its what wins finals. I do like the way he speaks and presents and believe his presence and reputation as has attracted quality people to the club like Crameri, and a hoard of elite highly successful ex Geelong players. I like Maccas mantra of quality people breeding success

I also love the way our recruiting has improved since Macca arrived. It was messy when he got there (Howard and Tutt) and since then has improved dramatically, apparently due to him implementing a recruiting matrix to focus our recruiters

So all in all wins about where I thought, development not particularly brilliant but okay, recruitment good, playing style good.

I think we are going okay, but realistically we are swimming against the current in a river full of s**t with our mouths wide open in order to beat GWS and GC in the coming years. But with Macca, I think we are a chance, certainly would prefer him to McKenna or Cameron, and by a country mile, Macca is our edge against them IMO. So I am glad we re-contracted him. And I am particularly glad that some of the reactionaries you see and hear from here and in the media have minimal input into the running of our club.

 

[Beasley]

Our rebuilding cannot be compared to what Hawthorn did because when we were at our lowest ebb, we have suffered from a compromised draft due to the introduction of GWS and Gold Coast, plus the draft tampering by Melbourne. When Hawthorn were at the bottom, they actually had access to the best draftees available.

 

[_Mike_]

3 schools of thought on this thread

The pro macca camp

- he is developing players
- he is teaching them how to get the footy
- he is in stilling discipline and the right culture
- he will bring success
- the Kool aid is truly amazing

The anti-macca camp

- he can't coach
- he stuffs up too many match ups
- he will never be a successful coach
- sack macca, sack macca, sack macca but have absolutely no ******* ideas around how to fix the problem besides the rhetoric (in a few cases) get Eade back.. Lol


The fence sitters

- let him sit out his first contract then see where he has gotten us..
- our list was in trouble with or without McCartney