Zach Package
Prespakis2Tsatas
Port game doesn't count, genuinely couldn't move and shouldn't have played in the first place.
Opinion Swap Carlisle & Hurley
- Thread starter Call Me Cake
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Port game doesn't count, genuinely couldn't move and shouldn't have played in the first place.
Paul_Barnard
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- Feb 12, 2013
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Hopefully Carlisle can prove them wrong this week.
I thought he was good against North and Hawthorn and then was in the ruck for the next 2 games, so a little confused at this out of form talk after one bad game.
I personally can see Carisle, Hooker, Hurley in a back 6 once Fletch retires.
Hurley could easily take the 3rd tall defender role.
Would make our forward line talls JD plus a Resting Ruckman.
I thought he was good against North and Hawthorn and then was in the ruck for the next 2 games, so a little confused at this out of form talk after one bad game.
I personally can see Carisle, Hooker, Hurley in a back 6 once Fletch retires.
Hurley could easily take the 3rd tall defender role.
Would make our forward line talls JD plus a Resting Ruckman.
Don Won
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One solution could be to rotate each of Hurley, fletch, hooker, Carlisle forward (25% each). All four are great back men, and seem to have their best forays forward when they pinch hit.
Will make it hard for opposition teams to plan. And won't effect our haphazard forward movement.
Will make it hard for opposition teams to plan. And won't effect our haphazard forward movement.
Dolner
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Everyone just needs to relax about this. We have to leave it how it is for a while and decide finally where the 2 of them best fit.
Carlisle was thrown to the wolves as our KPF1, then thrown in the ruck for a few games, then has a bad one and people have a go at him. He clearly has what it takes to be a good forward, just needs time.
Same with Hurley, a natural defender but he hasn't played there consistently in years then he gets put in as a KPD1 against Riewoldt (form forward of the comp) and we're back to swapping them around again.
Thompson is one of the best coaches of the modern era with a very talented list. Give them all some time.
He won flags with some very average forward lines. Nathan Ablett anyone?
Carlisle was thrown to the wolves as our KPF1, then thrown in the ruck for a few games, then has a bad one and people have a go at him. He clearly has what it takes to be a good forward, just needs time.
Same with Hurley, a natural defender but he hasn't played there consistently in years then he gets put in as a KPD1 against Riewoldt (form forward of the comp) and we're back to swapping them around again.
Thompson is one of the best coaches of the modern era with a very talented list. Give them all some time.
He won flags with some very average forward lines. Nathan Ablett anyone?
Kong
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I just don't see how you have come to your opinion based on the games played this year. You may well prove to be correct that he is far more valuable in defense, but i don't see how you can argue that we have found out the answer to that question as yet?
I'm more inclined to think you have lost the plot tbh...
That said, i was in Bangkok for the last two games so i got off easy!
Doss
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To be fair to rines, he's been next to useless in those last two weeks, so the current taste in her mouth in regards to Carlisle forward is understandably not good.I just don't see how you have come to your opinion based on the games played this year. You may well prove to be correct that he is far more valuable in defense, but i don't see how you can argue that we have found out the answer to that question as yet?
I'm more inclined to think you have lost the plot tbh...
That said, i was in Bangkok for the last two games so i got off easy!
But, I too think we shouldn't be counting our chickens before they've hatched just yet.
bombermick
Norm Smith Medallist
Hopefully he's got a shake up now and it can click for him, but Hirdy was/is good at swapping them at half-time to good effect. Bomber seems reluctant to try it.
yaco55
Hall of Famer
Carlisle was opposed to Cheney in the Hawks game. He actually played better when played in the ruck after Ryder was injured in the third quarter. Anyway gets a chance tomorrow seeing he is opposed to either Frost or Keefe.
- Banned
- #211
Ya. The taste isn't good.. and call it whatever you like.. hatching chickens or bonkers accountants.. Carlisle just ain't going to make it as a forward..
He will be dropped to the VFL before he makes it as a forward.
But Jimmy comes back in August.. and he will be back in defence next year and all will be good!
Carlisle is a gun and next year we will get to see him dominating again. I can't wait for 2015.
- Banned
- #212
Also no one wants to look at what this does to Daniher's development.. IF Hurley was playing forward.. he would take the key back or at least the bigger backmen.. automatically..
Right now JD is getting the best (and second best) defender on him all game.. as Jake deserves and is getting absolutely no respect from opposition coaches..
So we were are losing both ways.
Is a disaster of a move but Bomber won't change because he put his 'gonads' on the line.. so it is hero or highway for him. The downside of him 'not having to worry about next year'... stubborn refusal to acknowledge the blatantly obvious.
Right now JD is getting the best (and second best) defender on him all game.. as Jake deserves and is getting absolutely no respect from opposition coaches..
So we were are losing both ways.
Is a disaster of a move but Bomber won't change because he put his 'gonads' on the line.. so it is hero or highway for him. The downside of him 'not having to worry about next year'... stubborn refusal to acknowledge the blatantly obvious.
I think we've got 2 poor options and even if we swapped them we still wouldn't get much more from Hurley. I think Hurley is a marginally better forward than Carlisle but he was so injury prone whilst up there with his bash and crash style and struggled with the workrate required. Hurley right now is on his biggest streak of games in years.
We need to give this current structure a bit of time/games to work before we throw it out especially when we don't have any good alternatives.
For the record if we were going into a GF tomorrow i would prefer Hurley forward, Carlisle back but long term we need to develop another key forward (maybe even Ambrose). One thing is abundantly clear though we are not going to be able to draft a top grade key forward any time soon through the draft. We are damned lucky just to have gotten Daniher through F/S.
We need to give this current structure a bit of time/games to work before we throw it out especially when we don't have any good alternatives.
For the record if we were going into a GF tomorrow i would prefer Hurley forward, Carlisle back but long term we need to develop another key forward (maybe even Ambrose). One thing is abundantly clear though we are not going to be able to draft a top grade key forward any time soon through the draft. We are damned lucky just to have gotten Daniher through F/S.
No-one expects him to make it as a forward.
tbh I actually don't mind the rotation idea from Rebellya.
- Banned
- #215
Umm.. no that is the problem.. there are many many many people on this forum who seriously do expect him to make it as a forward.. apparently just needs more time.
Really? As far as I can tell they're saying that he will work his way up to providing a decent option temporarily until he can be put down back again. That's not 'making it'.
- Banned
- #217
Ok.. cool.
After spending two years on the same mission with Hurley.. and it actually showing results last year.. not sure why you would start from zero again with Carlisle..
but ok.. I must have misunderstood...
So how long is he providing this option 'temporarily'? What happens if we completely shred his confidence in the mean time.. essentially meaning that he can't just 'go back' in 1-5 years time.. also he has lost 1-5 years of defensive development during that period too.. so where he was at level B moving to A.. he would still be on level B.. whilst his peers had continued to progress..
So if the purpose, as you write, is for him to work his way up to being a decent stop gap option.. then why would you do that? Why wouldn't you persist with the stop gap we had in Hurley.. or use Hardingham or try going with no CHF..
Your POV is interesting.. and maybe helps me understand where people are coming from..
Personally I would prefer him dominating CHB than 'working his way up to providing a decent temporary option'..
To be honest it all comes down to Fletcher first and foremost. Had he not needed to play ruck when Fletcher missed, I'm sure Carlisle would've gone down back.
If we're going to be playing Hurley down back in the future (which we will) then he's going to actually need to be playing some time down back. Given Hooker is now pivotal to our defence, that doesn't leave us with much choice.
Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm
Draftee
Guys, I really think you are all missing the point here & have short memories
Firstly, Carlisle was named 2nd best KPP FORWARD in the 2009 draft behind Butcher. (Source - herald sun queen's b.day weekend 2009, please don't make me find it)
Secondly he was drafted to us as a forward!!!!! But under the regime of Matty Knights & Shannon Grant at the time of the draft, they had a problem. The problem was that they could NOT fit Michael Hurley (who was probably rated THEEEEEE best KPP DEFENDER in the 2008 draft) into their perfect functional backline, so they decided to make him a forward. So from day dot that Carlisle arrived at our club, we made him a defender and that worked or close enough to it. He learned his craft at the opposite end of the ground and obviously really enjoyed playing back there. The same can be said about Hurley at the other end albeit without as much success.
Thirdly, new coach for 2014 and new outlook and rules and decides to swap them back. All good in theory and I know you are all going to jump on me and say "it's his job to play where the coach tells him & if's he's good enough etc etc" Rounds one and two this year he palmed a lot of goals of to Chappy & Jobe and HELPED JD a lot up in the forward line, come round 3, he is now a ruckman. Do you not think that WE as a club have played with his head since he arrived here??? And maybe have asked a bit too much of him???? I don't think he would be on the big dollars like some other players. I would be interested in Yacos's comments here as I remember during the TAC cup of 2008 & 2009 he was a huge supporter of this kid, I wonder what he has done to change your mind??
Lastly, I hope for our sakes (and his) that he does perform tomorrow, it would be a travesty if another club threw big dollars at him again like GWS a couple of years ago along with the money they dangled his best mate Scully in front of his nose as well, but it was well documented everywhere at the time how much he loved Essendon and being at the club. Lets hope he stays with us, finishes off the season well and bring on a new JC when Hird comes back.
Go Bombers
Firstly, Carlisle was named 2nd best KPP FORWARD in the 2009 draft behind Butcher. (Source - herald sun queen's b.day weekend 2009, please don't make me find it)
Secondly he was drafted to us as a forward!!!!! But under the regime of Matty Knights & Shannon Grant at the time of the draft, they had a problem. The problem was that they could NOT fit Michael Hurley (who was probably rated THEEEEEE best KPP DEFENDER in the 2008 draft) into their perfect functional backline, so they decided to make him a forward. So from day dot that Carlisle arrived at our club, we made him a defender and that worked or close enough to it. He learned his craft at the opposite end of the ground and obviously really enjoyed playing back there. The same can be said about Hurley at the other end albeit without as much success.
Thirdly, new coach for 2014 and new outlook and rules and decides to swap them back. All good in theory and I know you are all going to jump on me and say "it's his job to play where the coach tells him & if's he's good enough etc etc" Rounds one and two this year he palmed a lot of goals of to Chappy & Jobe and HELPED JD a lot up in the forward line, come round 3, he is now a ruckman. Do you not think that WE as a club have played with his head since he arrived here??? And maybe have asked a bit too much of him???? I don't think he would be on the big dollars like some other players. I would be interested in Yacos's comments here as I remember during the TAC cup of 2008 & 2009 he was a huge supporter of this kid, I wonder what he has done to change your mind??
Lastly, I hope for our sakes (and his) that he does perform tomorrow, it would be a travesty if another club threw big dollars at him again like GWS a couple of years ago along with the money they dangled his best mate Scully in front of his nose as well, but it was well documented everywhere at the time how much he loved Essendon and being at the club. Lets hope he stays with us, finishes off the season well and bring on a new JC when Hird comes back.
Go Bombers
Bomberblitzer
Premiership Player
lol Butcher.
yaco55
Hall of Famer
Think you are confusing me with ANT555 who is our resident under age spotter. I was in Melbourne in 2008 and watched 2 games of the under 18 National Championship. Posted at the time that Hurley was a GUN and was rapt that we drafted him - But Hurley played defence in 2007 and 2008 and was a dual All-Australian.
My understanding is that Carlisle played both back and forward in the under 18's,though I believe he spent more time as a forward. Hooker spent most of his junior career as a forward.
I want two things from Carlisle - I want him to be MORE mobile and he MUST get the number one defender ( Hurley always got the number one defender ). This is placing undue pressure on JD ( who should be marking better ) and won't help T-Bell when he returns.
In saying that, I would prefer Hooker to be a forward. Think he has more tricks than Hurley or Carlisle.
Your views on the subject would have some credibility if you were able to acknowledge that it hasn't all been horrible and that even in the last few weeks he has done quite a bit right. But given that you've missed that much...
Have to say....your posting on this subject seems excessively emotional. The experiment has not failed, it has shown promise at times and looked a challenge at others.
It may or may not pan out ( I actually think it will) but your insistence that it's already a demonstrable failure that will destabilise the football club and should've scrapped immediately is bizarre.
- Banned
- #225
I posted that the signs were encouraging after Round 1.. I was concerned after Round 2.. gave the benefit of the doubt in Rnd 3 due to our blitz of Carlton, but still noticed that JC was a little out of sorts, then there was the decision to ruck him.. so more slack given in Rnd 4 and after Round 5 still not enough...
So it hasn't all been horrible.. as long as we play Carlton defence every week.. if not we score 65pts or less.. which is sickly.
