HECS/HELP debts incurred before 2014 to suffer interest after 2020 - fair?

Anyway, if we want to get serious about not wasting govt money in higher education then we should be prioritising money towards fields in which the country actually needs graduates and away from those which it does not.
How would you predict that?

There is a fair case to say that Joe Hockey's Arts degree was a total waste of money but there is no way to predict demand for particular degree educated workers.

There is an oft-quoted 'fact' (not sure if it is true) that there ar emore people in law degrees than there are practising lawyers. This would indicate a glut of lawyers yet the cost of legal representation remains very high. That's odd, isn't it?

medusala seems to have an opinion on "useless degrees" - tell us meddy which degrees are useless and which are useful? Please give us an explanation of your reasoning including projections and evidence. Given the above, would you agree that law degrees are pretty useless?
 
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How would you predict that?

There is a fair case to say that Joe Hockey's Arts degree was a total waste of money but there is no way to predict demand for particular degree educated workers.

There is an oft-quoted 'fact' (not sure if it is true) that there ar emore people in law degrees than there are practising lawyers. This would indicate a glut of lawyers yet the cost of legal representation remains very high. That's odd, isn't it?

medusala seems to have an opinion on "useless degrees" - tell us meddy which degrees are useless and which are useful? Please give us an explanation of your reasoning including projections and evidence. Given the above, would you agree that law degrees are pretty useless?

All degrees have some value. You have to learn to research information, analyse, discuss, argue & present at a high level. So even humanities degrees have value. Not every one has to do science or engineering. General degrees help people learn to think logically, act rationally & adapt to changing circumstances in life & the workplace.
I hope:p
 
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I do have some sympathy for this argument but it's not always easy to predict what types of grads we need four to six years in advance. Probably easier to predict demand for teachers, nurses, doctors etc. based on demographics but harder to predict lagged demand for scientists, engineers, IT workers, lawyers etc.

This is true.

If you graduated in Perth in the mid 2000s with an engineering degree you were absolutely laughing. Now, not so much.

That being said while industries will fluctuate an engineer is an engineer, a doctor is a doctor, a nurse is a nurse etc. How many generic commerce graduates, psychologists, arts majors etc. do we really need?
 
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This is true.

If you graduated in Perth in the mid 2000s with an engineering degree you were absolutely laughing. Now, not so much.

That being said while industries will fluctuate an engineer is an engineer, a doctor is a doctor, a nurse is a nurse etc. How many generic commerce graduates, psychologists, arts majors etc. do we really need?
As long as the feds want to keep using chaplains we won't be needing psychs anytime soon...
Maybe in ten years time when all those kids graduate...
 
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Going back to the rich kid from Cottesloe vs poor kid from Kwinana thing, or equivalent. Let's say they both have the intelligence and work ethic to become doctors. Their degrees might cost $150k each in fees. One's parents could pay that up front if they had to. The other's could not.

Should the govt support them equally wrt commonwealth support and HECS?

Should the rich kid be able to spend $200k and attend a private university to receive a 'better' education?
 
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I don't think we will end up with 100k in fees for all but the most extreme degrees at the best universities (ie, maybe Law at Melbourne). Post grad is already deregulated, yet we don't see those students fleeing in droves. The nature of supply and demand, means fees are kept relatively low. It won't end up as expensive as the US as there will be other options and some public funding, with largely publicly funded places at other unis meaning the sandstone unis can't take the piss.
The post grad market is completely different. The numbers I posted were from an article in the guardian and the conversation.

I will dig them up later.

Environmental science degrees for instance post subsidy removal will go up to 18.5k on average per semester, now many unis have 4 year Env degrees, that's between 120-150k. Purely designed at thinning enrolments is my guess as it was the largest removal of subsidy as a dollar value in the budget. However some science degrees are going to be between 60-80k.

Doesn't leave a lot of room post deregulation before degrees hit the 100k mark.

My guess is the big losers will be in biomed/gen and chemistry as these have high enrolment numbers and biomed especially is competitive for those either looking to do the GAMSAT and go on to med, or as a pathway to medical research as a post grad.
 
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Belnakor

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What if we increased the minimum entry level, with a review of grades and an interview, for courses like medicine, teaching, engineering, advanced sciences et al. But we made them completely covered by the Government, and have a low repayment level with bracket creep. This would increase the incentive for people with the ability to, to study and complete degrees that Australia needs.

There would just be creep and eventually we'd end up shelling out for every man and his dog. Just look at how many people have degrees at the moment. Way too many.

don't agree with the HECS index as a way to "price people out" but surely at some point sanity has to prevail and we need to stop paying for people to essentially do another 3-4 years of highschool.
 
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Environmental science degrees for instance post subsidy removal will go up to 18.5k on average per semester, now many unis have 4 year Env degrees, that's between 120-150k. Purely designed at thinning enrolments is my guess as it was the largest removal of subsidy as a dollar value in the budget. However some science degrees are going to be between 60-80k.
I;d suggest they should go up even more because they arnt worth much and seen as a bit of a modern day cappuccino degree.
They should be expensive....and/or very difficult to get into. If anyone is desperate they can pay for it...in the meantime the country could use more useful industry based graduates that wish to contribute to the economy and science rather than being qualified to comment on it.
 
The backroom brawlers will let you and your friends tinker around the edges.Make it look like things have changed.
Then when/if ALP gains power you will be gone.

there are too many of us

we control the vote
 
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That's just it though - They aren't the ones paying for you to go. You pay for it later when you are paying higher taxes on that triple salary you're talking about.

It's also worth mentioning here the opportunity cost of spending three to six years at uni earning nothing while your forklift friend is earning a full salary.
I agree there is a massive opportunity cost, but that is a choice I made. Not everyone pays back their uni, so the government doesn't always get their money back, let alone future tax revenue.
 
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The post grad market is completely different. The numbers I posted were from an article in the guardian and the conversation.

I will dig them up later.

Environmental science degrees for instance post subsidy removal will go up to 18.5k on average per semester, now many unis have 4 year Env degrees, that's between 120-150k. Purely designed at thinning enrolments is my guess as it was the largest removal of subsidy as a dollar value in the budget. However some science degrees are going to be between 60-80k.

Doesn't leave a lot of room post deregulation before degrees hit the 100k mark.

My guess is the big losers will be in biomed/gen and chemistry as these have high enrolment numbers and biomed especially is competitive for those either looking to do the GAMSAT and go on to med, or as a pathway to medical research as a post grad.
I would be interested to see that article. Currently, unis are funded about 60% by the government. Funding is dropping by 20%, which is somewhere around $1k per semester (on average). I fail to see how the writer could get that to 18.5k per semester, though I only know the average numbers, not specific to any course. Average funding is about $10k per year. As you know, students pay about $3-4k per semester, to get to their 40% of the funding.

I think uni fees will go up to about 5-6k per semester, about a 30-40% increase, which is in line with what the ANU Vice Chancellor said (30% for sandstone unis, less for others). For a 4 years degree, that would make them about 45k degrees, compared to about $30k before.

IF it results in better educational outcomes, I'm all for that. For me, that is a BIG if... It will be disappointing if the unis start charging more for some courses to invest in unrelated ones.
 
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I agree there is a massive opportunity cost, but that is a choice I made. Not everyone pays back their uni, so the government doesn't always get their money back, let alone future tax revenue.
True, but this isn't conceptually different from any other type of loan where there are always some who default. Normally this would be reflected in the interest rate of the loan but in the case of HECS, the roi is the higher taxes from those who do pay back their loans. Still, I am all for finding a way to recover unpaid HECS debts after x amount of time but see that problem as being independent of the proposed policy changes.
 
True, but this isn't conceptually different from any other type of loan where there are always some who default. Normally this would be reflected in the interest rate of the loan but in the case of HECS, the roi is the higher taxes from those who do pay back their loans. Still, I am all for finding a way to recover unpaid HECS debts after x amount of time but see that problem as being independent of the proposed policy changes.

20% of HECS is not repaid, that currently accounts for $6B

I wonder how this default rate compares to home loans. Not too mention, home loans are secured whilst HECS is unsecured.

The only way of collecting the unpaid debt (other than those who never earn the repayment threshold) would be to request a bond before leaving the country on holidays or permanently (and that will never happen).


By charging 3% above govt bond rate the govt would raise $0.8B meaning they effectively collect the $6B over circa 8 years
 
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20% of HECS is not repaid, that currently accounts for $6B

I wonder how this default rate compares to home loans. Not too mention, home loans are secured whilst HECS is unsecured.

The only way of collecting the unpaid debt (other than those who never earn the repayment threshold) would be to request a bond before leaving the country on holidays or permanently (and that will never happen).


By charging 3% above govt bond rate the govt would raise $0.8B meaning they effectively collect the $6B over circa 8 years
Will they not just collect the $20B through the higher taxes paid by the graduates?
 
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There would just be creep and eventually we'd end up shelling out for every man and his dog. Just look at how many people have degrees at the moment. Way too many.

don't agree with the HECS index as a way to "price people out" but surely at some point sanity has to prevail and we need to stop paying for people to essentially do another 3-4 years of highschool.

I dont believe you said that. o_O
The future is all about knowledge. The better educated all of us are will benefit society. For example, better educated people have better health outcomes, let alone the fact they can adapt & change occupations better than poorly educated people.
Many of the jobs of the future havent been thought of yet. Its the smart & educated people who will create the new jobs & require educated people to work in them.
Maybe you need an education:rolleyes:
 
Toney and Pyne have cancelled their visit to Deakin

“The advice from the Australian Federal Police was that they were concerned about the safety, particularly of innocent bystanders, because [Wednesday] is the students' national day of action, so-called, where they're protesting against having to contribute more to their own education,” Pyne told the ABC’s Lateline program.

Why is they have to be so snide. I agree that the Marxists are campaigners, but why do these people who all recieved a FREE education look at people who don't want to pay through the roof and toy with them.

Pricks
 

Belnakor

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I dont believe you said that. o_O
The future is all about knowledge. The better educated all of us are will benefit society. For example, better educated people have better health outcomes, let alone the fact they can adapt & change occupations better than poorly educated people.
Many of the jobs of the future havent been thought of yet. Its the smart & educated people who will create the new jobs & require educated people to work in them.
Maybe you need an education:rolleyes:

Actually I think i can safely say I'm more educated than you actually, but nonetheless, my point is that there has to be a line in the sand drawn on what is adding to the public good and what isn't.

Doing a degree in surfing isn't adding anything - so why is the government paying for it?
 

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Firstly, I disgree with your view that "too many people have degrees". I think education is vital for every society.

it is vital. Assuming you are focusing on the right things. A good example would be Saudi Arabia which produces like 95% of the world's doctorates in Islamic Studies. Really improving their society hey?

Anyway, did you read where I mentioned increasing the minimum entry level, with a review of grades and an interview?

thats how uni used to work, it was much harder to get into, until successive governments have eroded this process to the point where even someone who failed out of high school can easily get into a uni course. The government needs to help people, but at some point you have to draw a line and go "this person doesn't have the aptitude to complete a valuable degree". They should be funneled into other areas of development. Having 500 extra environmental science students graduating a year doesn't do anything for society.

I don't think we are really paying people to do extra years of highschool. If you mean the centrelink study payment thing?

The way the uni system works at the moment, is that it is simply so easy to get into uni, it is effectively another 3 years of high school. Basically the minimum requirement.
 

Belnakor

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I think uni fees will go up to about 5-6k per semester, about a 30-40% increase, which is in line with what the ANU Vice Chancellor said (30% for sandstone unis, less for others). For a 4 years degree, that would make them about 45k degrees, compared to about $30k before.

I would suggest that would be the minimum they will go up TBH. I was talking to a colleague of mine from the UK and he said that when a similar thing happened in the UK all the unis raised their fees because they were worried about losing the prestige by going in at a "cheaper" rate.
 

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Anybody heading in to protest today?

I'm thinking of skipping class and heading to the protest in Brisbane.

If for nothing else than to be able to say, in twenty years when people ask me why I didn't do anything to stop us selling our kids into indentured servitude and our nation up the river,

'Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos'

Also because I have something due today which I can't be bothered finishing. Or starting, for that matter.
 
I just read today that Hockey has exempted private schools from the spending cuts to education too. Private schools get six years of Gonski funding, public schools only get four. The more you find out about this budget, the more nasty and divisive it seems.
 
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