Sydney Swans Academy

Jun 16, 2012
12,249
9,694
AFL Club
Collingwood
Try 90-100%
I doubt the lions think they were reasonably compensated.
cola is going mate. As our list shrinks so does our cap
Cola is staying for the very people who are apparently going to leave the Swans/GC/Gws/Brisbane (even though they haven't by and large up to now) in the form of rent assistance. I'm also interested as to who the Lions were unfairly compensated for at the time. Karnezis and Paine is pretty fair, Yeo was traded for a higher pick than he was drafted, Polec had done nothing up to that point to suggest he was worth any more than he was traded for. Longer and Docherty the only ones maybe slightly undervalued, although the whole of Victoria had the option to go for them, and the best the Lions could get was around the 30 mark, which would suggest their value wasn't huge
 

Two Planks

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2012
8,168
12,872
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So once again. The clubs all voted for the academies and how the picks are used. And bf scream its unfair. Just like they voted for cola, suns and giants concessions etc etc
You all blame the AFL yet its your clubs that decided it.

Any club that relies on payments from the afl (port, bulldogs, saints, dees, kangaroos, swans, giants, lions, suns) would be lent on to vote a certain way. Dont bite the hand that feeds you is the term.
 
Any club that relies on payments from the afl (port, bulldogs, saints, dees, kangaroos, swans, giants, lions, suns) would be lent on to vote a certain way. Dont bite the hand that feeds you is the term.
Better get your facts straight or you're sounding like Eddie. The Swans haven't had any financial assistance from the AFL for a very long time. Unlike several Melbourne clubs who are on constant financial drips.
 

Two Planks

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2012
8,168
12,872
AFL Club
Geelong
Better get your facts straight or you're sounding like Eddie. The Swans haven't had any financial assistance from the AFL for a very long time. Unlike several Melbourne clubs who are on constant financial drips.

They have been bailed out about 5 times since they moved to the sin city. They are as good as owned by the AFL and will be in debt to them forever.
 

Furn2

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 27, 2012
9,475
15,514
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Hawthorn
Any one got a link to the clubs voting in these academies ?
 
Sep 11, 2008
12,340
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Better get your facts straight or you're sounding like Eddie. The Swans haven't had any financial assistance from the AFL for a very long time. Unlike several Melbourne clubs who are on constant financial drips.

The AFL pays the Swans 9.8% percent of their salary cap. 1 million a year does not count as assistance?
 

SB70

Debutant
Jun 26, 2014
127
79
AFL Club
Sydney
I will hate the Swans until they have to follow the same rules as Fremantle.

So how does equalisation work if you can't assist clubs that are disadvantaged?
I get the argument that Sydney (and Brisbane back a few years) have got too much help and I am sure we will hear a lot of the same if GC and GWS have success but to rule out assisting clubs if they are unequal probably makes equalisation impossible.
You may soon learn to like Sydney (if they survive) but get used to hating Collingwood and Hawthorn.
 
Sep 11, 2008
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So how does equalisation work if you can't assist clubs that are disadvantaged?
I get the argument that Sydney (and Brisbane back a few years) have got too much help and I am sure we will hear a lot of the same if GC and GWS have success but to rule out assisting clubs if they are unequal probably makes equalisation impossible.
You may soon learn to like Sydney (if they survive) but get used to hating Collingwood and Hawthorn.

I agree with this and I believe the Academies with be the COLA mach 2. The NSW\QLD sides will get too much of advantage and they will dominate the competition

I do not see the great disadvantage NSW\QLD clubs have they warrant an advantage that St Kilda, Western Buldogs, Melbourne should not also have.

You will never have every club equal, but if you keep the salary cap even and the draft even you get pretty close. This in a nut shell is what I want.

Thank you for being reasonable and admitted that previously you have got too much help.

PS - I can tolerate the academies if the NSW\QLD clubs some how pay full value for the players. Getting Heeney for Pick 20, no where near fair.
 
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I do not see the great disadvantage NSW\QLD clubs have they warrant an advantage that St Kilda, Western Buldogs, Melbourne should not also have.

You will never have every club equal, but if you keep the salary cap even and the draft even you get pretty close. This in a nut shell is what I want..
If you don't see those disadvantages, then read the 400 threads on this topic with an open mind. The AFL sees them, and your club sees them, because they voted for both the COLA and the Academies. If they weren't needed, why did your club vote for them?

And this "equal salary cap and even draft" is nonsense. I understand that that's what has been said, but why is it true? Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so.
 

Two Planks

Norm Smith Medallist
May 14, 2012
8,168
12,872
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So that means having an entire state (well half) to choose from who live and breath the game yes?

Absolute crap.

14 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from when its their selection. (the other 2 states and territory have already been taken)

4 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from after they have already cherry picked the best talent from the other states and territory.

Fremantle has just as much chance of selecting an elite kid from Wa as Sydney do.

Fremantle have no chance of selecting an elite kid from nsw or qld.
 
Aug 27, 2006
29,750
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More conspiracy theories

Club boards see the strategic long term thinking, but for the people running the list management and football department it presents a nightmare scenario where Sydney exploit a range of "equalization and talent development programs" and create a on field powerhouse.

You could well be crying foul in a few years if Sydney knocks you off in the finals and wins more than of it's fair share of flags.
 
Feb 24, 2008
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Absolute crap.

14 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from when its their selection. (the other 2 states and territory have already been taken)

4 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from after they have already cherry picked the best talent from the other states and territory.

Fremantle has just as much chance of selecting an elite kid from Wa as Sydney do.

Fremantle have no chance of selecting an elite kid from nsw or qld.

Fremantle has a greater chance of retaining a WA kid than Sydney do.
Fremantle have better players to choose from WA than Sydney do with NSW
Fremantle have more players that are from WA they could choose than Sydney do with NSW.

Western Australias talent pool of juniors is deeper and stronger than NSW's. Fremantle can pick players from Victoria, SA, NSW, QLD etc. If they pick from the large and strong pool that is WA they're likely to be able to keep them for the entire career of said player. NSW can pick players from SA,Victoria, NSW, QLD etc. We can choose to draft players who fall within our region (weaker region than GWS) who we have developed for seasons, in a bidding system. While we're doing well the bidding system favours us in terms of our first round pick being a later one, therefore better value for it.(System is same as father son where you can bid pick 16 for a genuine number one or risk having to use pick 5 for a pick 7/8 player)

'Cherry picked' wrong.
'The other 2 states and territoryhave already been taken' wrong.
'Fremantle have no chance of selecting an elite kid from nsw or qld' wrong.
 

leeo

Debutant
Jun 21, 2011
101
42
AFL Club
Sydney
Absolute crap.

14 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from when its their selection. (the other 2 states and territory have already been taken)

4 clubs have 4 states and 1 territory to pick from after they have already cherry picked the best talent from the other states and territory.

Fremantle has just as much chance of selecting an elite kid from Wa as Sydney do.

Fremantle have no chance of selecting an elite kid from nsw or qld.

But what are the chances of Freo selecting an elite kid from their home state in comparison to a club in QLD or NSW?
Having a list comprised of a significantly higher amount of players from other states is a very real disadvantage not only
in terms of player retention but also the resources needed to ensure player welfare.
 

DST

Premiership Player
May 1, 2003
3,084
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Sydney
[QUOTE PS - I can tolerate the academies if the NSW\QLD clubs some how pay full value for the players. Getting Heeney for Pick 20, no where near fair.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry which club do you work for as a talent scout or list manager?

Privately there are talent identification staff within the AFL who have Heeney potentially somewhere between pick 10 to a late first rounder, which is exactly what he might end up going to Sydney under the current bidding system.

It's amazing how much his value has skyrocketed when if came time for him to be used as a pawn in a couple of clubs game to bring equalisation to the world of AFL.
 

SB70

Debutant
Jun 26, 2014
127
79
AFL Club
Sydney
I agree with this and I believe the Academies with be the COLA mach 2. The NSW\QLD sides will get too much of advantage and they will dominate the competition

I do not see the great disadvantage NSW\QLD clubs have they warrant an advantage that St Kilda, Western Buldogs, Melbourne should not also have.

You will never have every club equal, but if you keep the salary cap even and the draft even you get pretty close. This in a nut shell is what I want.

Thank you for being reasonable and admitted that previously you have got too much help.

PS - I can tolerate the academies if the NSW\QLD clubs some how pay full value for the players. Getting Heeney for Pick 20, no where near fair.


I didn't actually say I agree Sydney got too much help - just that I get the argument.
I don't know if COLA overcompensates or undercompensates for the inherent disadvantages of being in a non traditional state. My view is that it has allowed us to be competitive with the other top teams. If the buy into the view of many on this forum it is as simple as we get some help, we are a good team therefore we are only good due to the help. If this was the case we would have clearly the most valuable list which while arguable this year has not been the case in the past.

I agree we will never get a perfect system.
I agree we should make the base salary cap even
I agree we should pay a fair price for academy kids
I also think we need to address the inherent disadvantage of this such as cost of living, high risk of players wanting to go home, etc.

I would love Sydney to be competitive with no help but my main point is that if a club needs help to get on level footing with other clubs then any success should not be tainted by this help.
I like the removal of COLA but also the realisation that some assistance is warranted - the rental assistance seems closer to reasonable. I think some form of relocation allowance for players who move (and stay interstate) would be good. I would be happy to have a modest system of priority picks allocated on a needs basis.
 
May 6, 2007
39,093
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Essendon
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Let me get this straight?
Sydney have close to 700 kids invested in their Academy and last year they snagged 1? Next year they will snag two (one being a father/son).

Why doesn't the AFL just finance these academies in Sydney & Queensland, throw ALL eligible 18+ y.o's into a draft and allow ALL clubs the chance to pick them up as 'primary listed category b' players' (with the security of that two year deal)

Would give every club the option to secure more talent onto there list, growing the game and giving the AFL more exposure on a national level.


This thread seems to go around and around in circles, people not actually throwing up ideas on what to change or how to change it.
 

AlibiMonday

I'm sorry, Dave.
Sep 21, 2006
1,497
1,049
London
AFL Club
Sydney
Agree, somehow make the bidding process fair and it will be fine but if it allows the NSW\QLD clubs to get top 5 talent at pick 20 and beyond.

I think this table sums it up very well - lets not forget Collingwood happily traded pick 11 and 31 for pick 6, so perhaps two picks is fair if it means you are getting a top 5 or top 10 talent.

The big advantage of the current bidding process is getting 2-3 selection in the one year, what rule changes can we put in to stop that as I expect with the academies this will occur most year.

I agree, if you take Rourke 's table. Then it's easy to determine the value of what Sydney should pay for Heeney.

Let's say Sydney win the Premiership and have picks 18, 36, 54, 72. This translates into:

Pick 18 = 1201 Draft Points (DP)
Pick 36 = 723 DP
Pick 54 = 434 DP
Pick 72 = 223 DP

Scenario 1
Lets say Melbourne nominate to take him at Pick 3, that's the equivalent value of 2348 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (2348).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 36 (723) + Pick 72 (223) = 2147 DP

Scenario 2
Lets say Western Bulldogs nominate to take him at Pick 5, that's the equivalent value of 2032 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (2032).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 36 (723) = 1924 DP

Scenario 3
Lets say Collingwood nominate to take him at Pick 11, that's the equivalent value of 1528 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (1528).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 72 (223) = 1424 DP


This gives a much truer value of both academy and father/sons, but still gives the host club a slight advantage, thus encouraging them to match the bid price. It also removes any counter bid bluffing that other clubs may partake in to up the host club's price. Since the host club is now paying more, they may be encouraged to call the bid club's bluff and let them have that player. For example in Scenario 1, I think Sydney may well say to Melbourne, he's all yours!!

Now the difficulty in this methodology occurs when there's more than one draftee who's either an academy or father/son within the same draft. That requires a bit more thinking.

I think however, you have to really question whether its worth Sydney developing a teenager for 10 years, just to gain the slightest of advantages. I think they'd prefer to invest the £750Kpa into senior player development or recruiting rather than junior development. If I was Andrew Ireland, I wouldn't bother to be frank and I'd cut the program.
 
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May 6, 2007
39,093
22,782
South East Suburbs
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Tottenham Hotspurs, Melbourne Vixen
I agree, if you take Rourke 's table. Then it's easy to determine the value of what Sydney should pay for Heeney.

Let's say Sydney win the Premiership and have picks 18, 36, 54, 72. This translates into:

Pick 18 = 1201 Draft Points (DP)
Pick 36 = 723 DP
Pick 54 = 434 DP
Pick 72 = 223 DP

Scenario 1
Lets say Melbourne nominate to take him at Pick 3, that the equivalent value of 2348 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (2348).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 36 (723) + Pick 72 (223) = 2147 DP

Scenario 2
Lets say Western Bulldogs nominate to take him at Pick 5, that the equivalent value of 2032 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (2032).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 36 (723) = 1924 DP

Scenario 3
Lets say Collingwood nominate to take him at Pick 11, that the equivalent value of 1528 Draft Points (DP). Therefore, Sydney need to accumulate the maximum value they can muster with their available allocated DP units without exceeding the bid value (1528).

Sydney would have to give Pick 18 (1201) + Pick 72 (223) = 1424 DP


This gives a much truer value of both academy and father/sons, but still gives the host club a slight advantage, thus encouraging them to match the bid price. It also removes any counter bid bluffing that other clubs may partake in to up the host club's price. Since the host club is now paying more, they may be encouraged to call the bid club's bluff and let them have that player. For example in Scenario 1, I think Sydney may well say to Melbourne, he's all yours!!

Now the difficulty in this methodology occurs when there's more than one draftee who's either an academy or father/son within the same draft. That requires a bit more thinking.

all well and good, but wouldn't they need to 'win' the bid? not just get as close as possible.

You don't go to a house auction and argue you got close to the reserve. The vendor needs to to be outbid
 

AlibiMonday

I'm sorry, Dave.
Sep 21, 2006
1,497
1,049
London
AFL Club
Sydney
all well and good, but wouldn't they need to 'win' the bid? not just get as close as possible.

You don't go to a house auction and argue you got close to the reserve. The vendor needs to to be outbid

Well, then the host is forced into paying over the market value. There's absolutely no incentive to run an academy or nurture f/s relationships.
 
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