Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[Super Hans]

not if he goes to a Sydney team

spending over 400k on Tom Mitchell is insane for a third year player, that didn't play in his first year
we're probably paying around 400k..just wait and see I guess

It's not really that much. Stringer is on close to that already.

 

[Super Hans]

Tell that to Morris on the weekend.

Or better still tell that to Picken on the weekend who tried to defend against Carlisle at one point!

So just becuase Morris got beaten on the weekend we are going to ignore the 150 odd games he has killed key forwards in?

Size isn't that important.

 

[timtamWB]

Yep height isn't that important. Not to ridiculous lengths where saying a 180cm player can match up on Cloke. But once you get past around 192 or 193, size doesn't become that much of an issue. If you're good enough it doesn't matter. Hell Morris should be the posterboy for that, one of the best stoppers of the past decade, but was constantly undersized. And would often take the best forward and beat him as well.

 

[Super Hans]

Malceski anyone? Wouldn't hurt to have the best half back flanker in the league atm.

Lose Higgins (still want to keep him though), get pick 25 or so for him, get Malceski as a FA. Sounds good to me.

 

[GrandBlue]

Tell that to Morris on the weekend.

Or better still tell that to Picken on the weekend who tried to defend against Carlisle at one point!

One bad game from Morris in the twilight of his career vs 150+ good ones.

 

[the dog's kennel]

So just becuase Morris got beaten on the weekend we are going to ignore the 150 odd games he has killed key forwards in?

Size isn't that important.

I'm not trashing Morris. I'm just saying that expecting medium sized defenders to defend against super-tall forwards is fraught with danger. So many of these key forwards Morris has dealt with in the past have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than the kind of forwards key defenders need to deal with today.

Consider Nick Riewoldt - Morris has had some great tussles with him, smothering him despite being under-sized. Nick is 193cm, an inch taller than Morris.

I reckon giving up an inch is fine. Giving up 2 inches is pushing it. That's where Fletcher Roberts is at, compared to some of the monsters he may come up against. Giving up 3 inches is just asking for trouble. Giving up 4 inches is Kyle Cheney vs Tom Hawkins - i.e. a car crash.

Obviously the higher quality a defender, the more they can compensate for height deficiencies. But I think you guys are really underestimating how much taller players are becoming. 195 is the new 190. Sure Morris could possibly even cover Travis Cloke at a push (196). But when you're getting to Carlisle (198), Josh Jenkins (199) and God help us Boyd (200) and Tippett (203), I reckon it'd be great to have 3 more inches to work with.

 

[LukasTheGreat]

Watched every willi game in 2010 and he was amazing. Dale Morris reincarnate I thought. Just couldn't get a game at freo though. Has he put on some weight or is he still slight?

Still very skinny, doesn't look strong so I'm not sure how he'd go in a 1v1 but he's quick and very athletic. I was only able to watch the first half but he didn't lose a contest.

 

[grassman75]

I'm not trashing Morris. I'm just saying that expecting medium sized defenders to defend against super-tall forwards is fraught with danger. So many of these key forwards Morris has dealt with in the past have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than the kind of forwards key defenders need to deal with today.

Consider Nick Riewoldt - Morris has had some great tussles with him, smothering him despite being under-sized. Nick is 193cm, an inch taller than Morris.

I reckon giving up an inch is fine. Giving up 2 inches is pushing it. That's where Fletcher Roberts is at, compared to some of the monsters he may come up against. Giving up 3 inches is just asking for trouble. Giving up 4 inches is Rohan Smith v Matthew Robran - i.e. a car crash.

Obviously the higher quality a defender, the more they can compensate for height deficiencies. But I think you guys are really underestimating how much taller players are becoming. 195 is the new 190. Sure Morris could possibly even cover Travis Cloke at a push (196). But when you're getting to Carlisle (198), Josh Jenkins (199) and God help us Boyd (200) and Tippett (203), I reckon it'd be great to have 3 more inches to work with.

Edited for historical accuracy and to highlight that size does indeed matter (although it's not what you've got, it's what you do with it)

 

[footyfan000001]

Malceski anyone? Wouldn't hurt to have the best half back flanker in the league atm.

Lose Higgins (still want to keep him though), get pick 25 or so for him, get Malceski as a FA. Sounds good to me.

Apparently wants to play for Paul Roos.

 

[fronkalicious]

I'd take malceski if we've already front ended contracts for all our young stars. Great talent

 

[igloo dweller]

height matters for KPPs - more specifically, standing reach matters. it takes someone special to excel in key posts who is undersized (johnno, ablett, modra). yes, good players can reduce their disadvantage in height (or speed, strength for that matter), but mainly because they are good players. but really, if dale morris at 192cm mans kurt tippet at 203 cm, he's likely giving away 20cm+ in standing reach (that's before body position, ball being kicked to forwards advantage is factored in). nick riewoldt is about 193, but he has arms from some who is 203cm tall.

 

[footyfan000001]

If we lost Higgins and got a pick in the 20s - would GWS take that for Jaksch?

I am not sure how good O'Rourke is as I haven't seen him play - but would Pick 5 and Compo pick be fair for O'Rourke and Jaksch?

 

[yebiga]

If we lost Higgins and got a pick in the 20s - would GWS take that for Jaksch?

I am not sure how good O'Rourke is as I haven't seen him play - but would Pick 5 and Compo pick be fair for O'Rourke and Jaksch?

Way too much

 

[scooter600x]

The AFL rules committee changed the landscape when they banned chopping the arms.

As kids we were always taught to chop the arms when you were against a taller opponent. Now that you can't do that there's very little a smaller opponent can do to stop the taller man marking it. Almost overnight KPPs went from 193cm to 200cm - and it won't stop there.

We're heading towards basketball 7 footers.

Francis Bourke and Bruce Doull could never have finished their careers as key backs these days.

 

[Mofra]

If we lost Higgins and got a pick in the 20s - would GWS take that for Jaksch?

I am not sure how good O'Rourke is as I haven't seen him play - but would Pick 5 and Compo pick be fair for O'Rourke and Jaksch?

It's not about what we think their worth is - it's their market worth.

Hawthorn, Geelong, Carlton and I assume we are all in the market for a young tall defender (among others).
Frawley is UFA and 25 so will probably be the priority for Hawks & Cats with their window open.

That leaves at least 3 teams vying for his services which is bound to push his price up.

 

[Dogsman16]

Anything under a 5cm difference I can find acceptable but as soon as it gets a bit more a difference the more concerned I get. Most concerning this year was when Moz started on Charlie Dixon and then rotated to Tom Lynch in both games we played against gold coast this year. 12cm difference with dixon and a 9cm difference with Lynch. Its the sort of game where we had rest Moz and bring in Roberts and Talia to match up on their 3 big talls.

Roughy 200cm on Dixon 202cm
Roberts 196cm on Lynch 199cm
Talia 194cm on Day 196cm

Far more appropriate against the bigger type of forwards lines such as Gold Coast, GWS, Essendon, and even Hawthorn Geelong etc.

 

[Martyn_30_]

Who gives the slightest s**t about height?

Scarlett always gave away height to his opponents and he consistently won. Height is one of the least important attributes to a defender.

There weren't as many really tall forwards when Scarlett played at full back as there will be in the future, players such as Lloyd and Fevola. The only time Morris has trouble playing on tall forwards is when they out reach him, which has been his biggest problem against Riewoldt. Being tall doesn't make you a good defender on its own but if Morris was 5cm taller he would be a better player.

 

[Zephiisdaman]

Peoples thoughts please: We are desperate for a key forward. Stevie Wonder can see that.
I would propose a trade with GWS for either Boyd or Patton. In return we offer our first rounder + Hrovat or Stringer. Some shuffling of other picks might have to happen for it to work. We have a glut of good young similar type mids, to lose one for a kpf would be a loss but for greater good. Stringer is unusual, he reminds me a little of Michael Hurley. I'm worried he might never find a true position in the way he is being played at the moment. Potentially real good, but also a possible wasted talent.

 

[Mofra]

Who gives the slightest s**t about height?

Scarlett always gave away height to his opponents and he consistently won. Height is one of the least important attributes to a defender.

10 years ago yes - when Morris as a 192cm defender would give up 3-4 cm maximum, and even then was largely confined to the leading types.

Carlisle toweled him up on Sunday and height was a massive factor - and forwards are getting taller.

 

[Dogsman16]

Peoples thoughts please: We are desperate for a key forward. Stevie Wonder can see that.
I would propose a trade with GWS for either Boyd or Patton. In return we offer our first rounder + Hrovat or Stringer. Some shuffling of other picks might have to happen for it to work. We have a glut of good young similar type mids, to lose one for a kpf would be a loss but for greater good. Stringer is unusual, he reminds me a little of Michael Hurley. I'm worried he might never find a true position in the way he is being played at the moment. Potentially real good, but also a possible wasted talent.

Offloading Stringer and our forward line goes backwards even with the addition of Patton. Absolutely no way would I ever consider this trade.

He is averaging just under 3 goals a game since his return. Hard not to consider him our best forward both now and in the future. I would never get rid of Hrovat either. Trading one of our kids from 2010 - 2013 draft period will never ever happen!

 

[TedDougChris]

Peoples thoughts please: We are desperate for a key forward. Stevie Wonder can see that.
I would propose a trade with GWS for either Boyd or Patton. In return we offer our first rounder + Hrovat or Stringer. Some shuffling of other picks might have to happen for it to work. We have a glut of good young similar type mids, to lose one for a kpf would be a loss but for greater good. Stringer is unusual, he reminds me a little of Michael Hurley. I'm worried he might never find a true position in the way he is being played at the moment. Potentially real good, but also a possible wasted talent.

Nope......

 

[Dav1d]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-07-23/three-big-questions

WESTERN BULLDOGS
Where do the Dogs find a key forward? To get something, you need to give something and gun key forwards don't come cheaply. Prying one out of a club is hard enough without stumping up the currency to 'pay' for them. The Dogs would be unwilling to trade one of their young stars, or skipper Ryan Griffen (as club great Luke Darcy suggested) in a package deal with their first pick. They are unlikely to have a second round pick as collateral, as they'll need that to secure highly-rated father-son prospect and key defender Zaine Cordy, so they'll be praying they find a key forward in the draft.
Do the Dogs need Shaun Higgins? The 26-year-old has endured an injury-ravaged nine seasons at Whitten Oval, but the 124 games he has managed in red, white and blue have been riddled with inconsistency. Brendan McCartney tried to reinvent the 2005 first round pick as a running defender but with limited effect, and Higgins now finds himself in the VFL. A free agent at season's end, the compensation the Bulldogs would receive for his departure could be packaged with draft picks to trade for that much-needed key forward.
Should they stay or should they go? Rookies Mark Austin, Alex Greenwood, Lin Jong and Jack Redpath have all been with the club for three seasons, so the Dogs will need to either upgrade them or delist them. Jong and Redpath appear to have the most upside and a chance of being moved to the senior list. Redpath may be a beneficiary of Tom Williams' early retirement and the club's lack of key forwards. Austin has been used sparingly in his time at Whitten Oval, while inside midfielder Greenwood is yet to play a senior game. – Ryan Davidson


eh

 

[footyfan000001]

Peoples thoughts please: We are desperate for a key forward. Stevie Wonder can see that.
I would propose a trade with GWS for either Boyd or Patton. In return we offer our first rounder + Hrovat or Stringer. Some shuffling of other picks might have to happen for it to work. We have a glut of good young similar type mids, to lose one for a kpf would be a loss but for greater good. Stringer is unusual, he reminds me a little of Michael Hurley. I'm worried he might never find a true position in the way he is being played at the moment. Potentially real good, but also a possible wasted talent.

I think everyone wants Patton. But unfortunately we just don't have anyone to trade off. The players of value that we do have are crucial for our structure and will be a huge part of our next flag tilt. I say we just go to the draft again and draft a couple of KPP. If other teams can do it then so can we. I really would love Patton but I am not willing to part with any of Griff, Libba, Hrovat, Wallis, Stringer, Bonty or Macrae.

 

[GrandBlue]

There weren't as many really tall forwards when Scarlett played at full back as there will be in the future, players such as Lloyd and Fevola. The only time Morris has trouble playing on tall forwards is when they out reach him, which has been his biggest problem against Riewoldt. Being tall doesn't make you a good defender on its own but if Morris was 5cm taller he would be a better player.

Riewoldt is the same height as Lloyd & Fevola. He dominated because he's a freak.

10 years ago yes - when Morris as a 192cm defender would give up 3-4 cm maximum, and even then was largely confined to the leading types.

Carlisle toweled him up on Sunday and height was a massive factor - and forwards are getting taller.

Scarlett consistently stopped Buddy at his peak, who was a taller, stronger, faster player than him. All you need is excellent defensive ability & not too much of a height disadvantage.

If height was as big of a factor as people thought, ruckmen would be having a lot more success when shifting forward. Remember when Will Minson was our full-forward back in 2008-2009? You think any fullbacks in the competition were worried about the height disadvantage there?

 

[TBOW]

Unfortunately where Higgins goes in FA is not going to improve our draft position nor give us GWS sympathy so that they give us one of there KPF for just pick 5.

It does raise the potential for some creative dealing though.
If Patton wants to come to us yet we can't organise a satisfactory deal I wonder whether GWS would pay Higgins overs to essentially manufacture a second 1st rounder to trade back to them?
If they could get it in the cap everyone wins - especially Higgins.

I wonder when Scullys joke of a contract expires? Was it 5 years??