Opinion Richmonds future direction with Hardwick

[Nostradumbass]

Cotchin's been carrying an injury since the first Fremantle game last year.

What injury has he carried over nearly 2 seasons now?

 

[Goldust]

'We're well past that stage of just handing jumpers out."

Yet, Dimma, you handed it out 11 times to a guy called Hampson .... while a guy called Miles repeatedly racked up 30 possessions a week in the Two, two thirds of them contested, yet you failed to upgrade him at season's start, waited weeks to do it eventually and then waited weeks after upgrading him to play him.
Moron! Don't give me we're past handing out jumpers. Hampson has been the worse recruit to come down the pike since the 80 flag .... Hislop, Thomson, Wally Lovett, Simon Fletcher and Billy Nicolls included.
Handing out jumpers .... pfffft!

 

[living_in_syd]

This is my major worry at the moment Doc - I reckon we might win all of our remaining games but I disagree that we will make the 8.
In fact the salt in the wound of coming home with a wet sail and finishing 9th will even more focus all of us on the amateur hour that was our pre-season and early season this year.
Such a waste of a year really...

I can imagine.

We will go into preseason thinking we are top s**t again and the marketing team will have a field day. Heaps of media articles on how the players are so 'gutted' because we were so close to finals... lol and then we get rolled r1 2015.

 

[living_in_syd]

Just because they're retreads doesn't mean they're crap players, Petterd has been in very good form and Chaplin has improved his performances since Rance has been back. Maric? Lloyd? Gordon? Hampson fair enough, Thomas has been serviceable as short term backup. Houli is back to his best.

The only guys that haven't played this year are King (injured), Knights (injured), Helbig (who knows), McIntosh (injured/developing) and McBean (injured/developing), Elton (who knows) or non-elevated rookies.

Arnot has played 4
Astbury has played 8
Batchelor has played 6
Dea has played 7
Gordon has played 5
Griffiths has played 10
Grimes has played 12
Lennon has played 5
Lloyd has played 6
McDonough has played 7
Miles has played 6
O'Hanlon has played 1

These are all our next tier players vying for a spot on the senior list, so please explain how exactly we're not getting games into players?

A case can made of each player there dropped too early or not given enough chance (atleast as much as hampson).

We need to find out about these players. List Management can't be amateur hour again in the off season.

Oh, and also, for the supporter's sake. We want to see hope and youth, not same old and too old.

 

[Harmichael]

What injury has he carried over nearly 2 seasons now?

His knee hasn't been right since he did it in the match I referred to. His hip is still stuffed too.

 

[wart101]

Just my opinion but lennon, Miles, Lloyd, McDonough, batchelor,Arnot, O'Hanlon all should have played way more than what they have.

in place of who?

 

[wart101]

I think most of the fans would be more impressed with developing young kids and having them come through into a formidable winning team for the next ten years instead of some meaningless wins adding to zero now in 2014.

How is this not obvious to those in power.

Selection has been the worst performed element this year, behind game day coaching, and then the actual players - in that order.

Oh for * sacks, because they aren't as smart as us GOD ******* DANM IT! THE SHOULD JUST RUN THE STUPID ******* FOOTBALL CLUB FROM BIGFOOTY BECAUSE THEY CLEARLY HAVE NO ******* IDEA HOW TO RUN A ******* FOOTBALL CLUB, CLEARLY MOST OF US HERE DO, THE ******* *S NEED TO MAKE A BF ACCOUNT AND TAKE TIPS HUH, STUPID *erS!

 

[DrMike]

A case can made of each player there dropped too early or not given enough chance (atleast as much as hampson).

We need to find out about these players. List Management can't be amateur hour again in the off season.

Oh, and also, for the supporter's sake. We want to see hope and youth, not same old and too old.

I think that's the nature of AFL in general, there's always going to be someone you want playing instead of someone else, and can justify anything.

If we played kids earlier in the year and lost games because of them, then we wouldn't make finals. Now that we probably won't make finals, we should have played the kids instead. Just doesn't make sense, as if the club would know in advance that their gameplan wouldn't work. If they knew that, they wouldn't have gone with it in the first place and we wouldn't be having this conversation since we'd be somewhere in the 8.

As much as I'd love to see all these guys running around in seniors, you can only pick 22 for game day. And sometimes one player can be the difference between winning and losing, so when they're ready, play them. And once you've played them, make them learn and improve, give them a spell at VFL, then play them again. Unless you're incredibly gifted, which most players aren't outside of first round picks, then you have to work on your game and your deficiencies to improve both yourself and the club. If you can't do that and you're too weak, then the players who do want to will get their chance before you.

 

[TheProwler]

I can't belive he was staggered at the improvement of the rest of the teams.
he just admitted to screwing up by underestimating the opposition. That is in itself staggering. He faield to prepare for this season adequately. He thought that an elimination final loss against a team that finished 9th and would elect to play us 22 times each season was good enough for natural improvement. He loaded up on hasbeens and thought we were 'cherry ripe'. meanwhile the other teams improved, we stagnanted and look where we are.
It must be the Essendon blood in him. Deny, deny, deny.
I'm resigned to the fact that he will be there next year. I'm not happy about it.

Lol surely he didn't say that?

 

[tugga]

Lol surely he didn't say that?

 

[tugga]

in place of who?

Miles should have been in from round 1.
The others needed to stay in for an extended stint at it once they got in. O'Hanlon got 15 minutes.

 

[Livonski]

Miles should have been in from round 1.
The others needed to stay in for an extended stint at it once they got in. O'Hanlon got 15 minutes.

I know it's heresy but did it cross your mind that Miles wasn't ready to play rd1? He couldn't get a game at GWS, delisted, dumped, and we picked him up for free (pick 27 rookie draft. A few passed him over!). Any credit anywhere?
So it's fair to assume there might have been one or two deficiencies in his game. But he did a bit of time in the VFL and then made an impact as soon as he came in...good development?
Not just you, but the relentless negativity on here, even when we unearth a talent like Miles (for free) is breathtaking.

 

[tugga]

I know it's heresy but did it cross your mind that Miles wasn't ready to play rd1? He couldn't get a game at GWS, delisted, dumped, and we picked him up for free (pick 27 rookie draft. A few passed him over!). Any credit anywhere?
So it's fair to assume there might have been one or two deficiencies in his game. But he did a bit of time in the VFL and then made an impact as soon as he came in...good development?
Not just you, but the relentless negativity on here, even when we unearth a talent like Miles (for free) is breathtaking.

Fair point. But to be fair as well, it's not my job to identify that. It's the coach.

 

[Lsta062]

I assume he is just drumming up crowd attendance but surely he doesn't believe winning season end back end victories has anything to do with supporters respect.

If DH gave the kids more of a go when results have become irrelevant for the year he would probably earn more respect IMO because they would be focusing on a more relevant objective still relevant which is developing for a future premiership that is actually still current as an objective!!

IMO, he is doing the best for the club and the kids in the long run by making it tough for them to get a game. Therefore, when they start playing in the AFL, they will be more grateful and will work to the best of their ability to keep their spots in the ones. Kinda like what Miles is doing now. He is continuously making an impact after he worked hard in the twos for the spot that he received. So, I am all for him lifting the bar up for them to get a game. Who cares what those seniors that don't perform get given. We already screwed up with them by gifting them games. They are not a part of Richmond's future. Eventually, the kids who work hard will take their spots and they will have only themselves to blame for not being able to get a game anymore. Our standards would be too high for them then

 

[SpudsLoveChild]

I know it's heresy but did it cross your mind that Miles wasn't ready to play rd1? He couldn't get a game at GWS, delisted, dumped, and we picked him up for free (pick 27 rookie draft. A few passed him over!). Any credit anywhere?
So it's fair to assume there might have been one or two deficiencies in his game. But he did a bit of time in the VFL and then made an impact as soon as he came in...good development?
Not just you, but the relentless negativity on here, even when we unearth a talent like Miles (for free) is breathtaking.

Found him and gave him game time and he's proven the coaching staff and recruiters can get it right. I'm really happy we have and that he's doing well.

But with the benefit of hindsight some people know better.. But then I've heard that hindsight is 20/20 vision through an a-hole.

 

[Lsta062]

That's a good post and making the kids earn it is no bad thing. But playing Arnot in the forward pocket and O'Hanlon as the sub and immediately dropping them was not much reward.

At this stage of the season we've had, selection must be with an eye to the future. McDonough and Helbig have sustained form, so let's see if they get a game. Helbig hasn't had a look-in for two years and the way it's going he'll be delisted without another look.

Matt Thomas represents how far Dimma has departed from what he promised us and I would bet good money he'll be in this week.

Perhaps he expects them to be better than what they were on the days that they were dropped. You would be much harder and tougher on those that you have high hopes for. The mentor who believes that someone has a lot of potential would make them work extra hard in order to unlock their potential. You would reward them less frequently than the one you have less hope for. But that is just my opinion though. I am not sure what happens within those four walls at Punt Road, so I could be completely wrong on this

 

[Mr Magic]

Miles should have been in from round 1.
The others needed to stay in for an extended stint at it once they got in. O'Hanlon got 15 minutes.

I agree with your sentiment. There seems to be double standards and some may well feel depressed or oppressed!

IMO it would appear fairer and or more plausible if some of the more consistent AFL players selected at RFC were dropped every now and then when form dipped in line with perceived policies.

Some players seem to be on the end of slight favourable treatment while others are absent from spectators memory!

 

[TheProwler]

I agree with your sentiment. There seems to be double standards and some may well feel depressed or oppressed!

IMO it would appear fairer and or more plausible if some of the more consistent AFL players selected at RFC were dropped every now and then when form dipped in line with perceived policies.

Some players seem to be on the end of slight favourable treatment while others are absent from spectators memory!

Agree however the trouble with dropping guys when their form dips i.e. Houli is that his replacement Dea will take a few weeks to get used to the speed that is AFL. The gap between the guys playing regularly and those in the VFL is too great so the coach knowing this puts his faith in the AFL player to eventually turn it around. This season we have had too many guys down at the same time which has significantly weakened our side.

It's up to the coach and his merry men to get the players prepared and ready to go. If the players are playing injured then this makes the decision easier

 

[Mr Magic]

Agree however the trouble with dropping guys when their form dips i.e. Houli is that his replacement Dea will take a few weeks to get used to the speed that is AFL. The gap between the guys playing regularly and those in the VFL is too great so the coach knowing this puts his faith in the AFL player to eventually turn it around. This season we have had too many guys down at the same time which has significantly weakened our side.

It's up to the coach and his merry men to get the players prepared and ready to go. If the players are playing injured then this makes the decision easier

The gap is not great when we are not expected to win the match anyway. Players have to develop some time to improve. No pain, no gain! No reward without risk!

 

[TigerImposter]

I think most of the fans would be more impressed with developing young kids and having them come through into a formidable winning team for the next ten years instead of some meaningless wins adding to zero now in 2014.

How is this not obvious to those in power.

Selection has been the worst performed element this year, behind game day coaching, and then the actual players - in that order.

These young kids are now becoming disenchanted with Dimma
Yes sounds stupid,but why aren't they signing up ?
Dont we have a war chest to easily cover them with a gun thrown in?
I'm concerned that Dimma is not playing them bc half will be gone by next year
Helbig Arnott Griffo McDonough stand out to me ???????

 

[TheProwler]

The gap is not great when we are not expected to win the match anyway. Players have to develop some time to improve. No pain, no gain! No reward without risk!

Sorry probably didn't word it too well but the gap I was referring to is the come up to speed with the game gap not skill, ability etc. It's why IMO Hardwick keeps picking the same three or four AFL experienced blokes like Petterd, Thomas etc ahead of McDonough, Dea, etc as these kids don't have the same AFL experience to go straight away. Is this best for the short term but detrimental to the long term?

 

[Mr Magic]

Sorry probably didn't word it too well but the gap I was referring to is the come up to speed with the game gap not skill, ability etc. It's why IMO Hardwick keeps picking the same three or four AFL experienced blokes like Petterd, Thomas etc ahead of McDonough, Dea, etc as these kids don't have the same AFL experience to go straight away. Is this best for the short term but detrimental to the long term?

yeah , I don't buy that argument. I don't mind the Malthouse approach of throwing them in the deep end in big matches every now and then. They have to handle pressure like anyone else to make it like Langdon to succeed anyway. The youngsters are not toddlers needing a security blanket!!

The difference with very strong lists in the past like Hawthorn in the 80's is their strength mean't the reserves were fairly stronger so youngsters could learn of strong colleagues in the reserves regarding set-ups etc.. We do not have that kind of strength so the holding back dynamic doesn't work IMO when more average players are getting games in the firsts!

The playing group is appearing fractured from afar between the youngsters and the recycled players it seems in terms of opportunity! Some of the decisions appear too conservative and therefore for some not balanced and fair for others!

 

[Nostradumbass]

Dimma's game plan revealed.

 

[_RT_]

I'm quite pleased that we're still trying to win games despite our season being shot. Earlier in the season there were plenty of complaints about the players not respecting the jumper by putting in poor performances, now that they are going out trying to get that respect back, people are still somewhat unhappy. I know it won't make up for missing finals, but how good would it be to win 8-9 games straight to end the season. I'm not saying it will happen so the haters can relax, I'm just saying that going out and winning a string of games would be great for the group. Sure some of those games will come against sides who have the draft in mind and have shut up shop, but there are other games that we're playing that are involving sides that have plenty to play for.

We beat Port last game who are fighting for a top 4 spot. We've got the Eagles who, despite some saying they are tanking, are only 2 games out of the 8 and a win this week could see them only a game out. Rounds 20 & 21 we've got Essendon & Adelaide, 2 teams that are thereabouts for the finals and then Sydney in round 23 who might be looking at securing a top 2 spot and home finals. So there is still plenty to play for despite finals seemingly being out of the picture.

With that in mind I'm glad that we're not just going down the path of handing out games to promising kids just because they are promising kids. Somewhere along the way we need to change from rewarding talented kids because they are talented kids and start rewarding them because their form demands that they get selected. Now I know that some of the kids like McDonough O'Hanlon Arnot Lennon and co have shown some good form the last month, but the problem is that has coincided with the senior side also showing some pretty good form. All these kids can do is keep putting their hands up and wait for an opportunity to open up. When it does they need to ensure that they grab it with both hands and make it hard for them to be dropped when better players come back in, rather than just expecting to be kept in because they are young and talented.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Whether we'd all struggle to identify them or not is beside the point, the fact of the matter is, those players were already on Ports list, so it was hardly a list that was in pieces as you suggested.

As you well know, it now looks a decent list because he's improved nearly every player on it, some of them dramatically. You're not going to argue he inherited a bunch of great players who the rest of the comp would dearly love to have playing for them, because you can't. He MADE that group a bunch of players other sides would gladly take on.

As for their stunning transformation, I'd suggest the recruitment of Burgess, who got Port fitter than any other team in the league had a fair bit more to do with that than any game changing game plan that Hinkley came up with.

Really, RT, you do take up some incredibly bizarre positions.

Fitness Team > Coaching Team/Game Plan

Talk about cart before the horse...

Hinkley walked into the place and instigated an attacking, winning brand of football where players were always given license to take the game on. The Geelong blueprint with a twist. Then he set about motivating them to be the best players they could be. He was almost universally recognised as coach of the year last season, but if you want to pretend the transformation was more due to player fitness, have at it. I think you'll find very few agree with you.

Hardwicks tenure started off so much different to Hinkley's, for starters our list was shot, ports at least had a skeleton list, if we got Hinkley instead of Hardwick I am not sure he could have done better.

Reiwoldt V Schulz (who Hardwick wouldn't guarantee a game, so he left)
Cotchin V Boak
Martin V Wingard
Tuck V Cornes
Jackson V Ebert
Rance V Carlisle
Deledio V Wines

Could go on, wart, but to me, Hardwick clearly inherited a far superior 'skeleton' to that of Hinkley, or Roos for that matter. Then he proceeded to turn us into Fitzroy, for the purposes of teaching 'the right way' to go about winning a flag.

Even in the worst of the heat and speculation of Wallace's last year, after it was being widely said that he'd 'lost the players', we were within a couple of kicks of beating the then 'unbeatable' Geelong and played a game far gutsier than what we've seen this year. We certainly weren't Fitzroy - Hardwick turned us into a completely non-competitive rabble.

We paid a massive price for the period Hardwick asked for to teach the players his way. Now it's clear that the vision he espoused has not come remotely close to being fulfilled, it's time to stop paying the most unacceptable price in football - not getting closer to winning a flag.

I can't belive he was staggered at the improvement of the rest of the teams.

It's a mind boggling admission, tug. Like holding Miles back and then being 'surprised.' He's often a lousy judge of a player, IMO and it's held up the development of several kids who would have earned a crack if their coach wasn't so 'surprised' all the time.

Matt Thomas represents how far Dimma has departed from what he promised us...

Absolutely, RatD.

Our elite young mids got smashed from pillar to post in their early years, because it was vital to Hardwick's vision that we had our best ball users at the coalface. No Shane Tuck types needed, he's just an accumulator, does nothing with it.

Here we are in year 5 with Thomas. It's a spectacular reversal in mindset and really, to me, his only excuse can be that it's impossible to build a fully stocked, top-line midfield solely from the draft over six seasons - which is itself a spectacular reversal from exactly what he promised when he took the job.