Victoria Election - 29 November 2014

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Jan 13, 2001
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John Cain took the Doncaster rail link off the table. Labor under Bracks and Brumby had to be slapped around the head just to re-lay the track to South Morang. Don't hold your breath.
Lack of spending on metropolitian rail networks and constant delaying tactics in looking at them properly don't just include Labor premiers. Sir Henry Bolte and Rupert Hamer did far more damage to rail networks in Victoria than any Labor government, closing railway lines linking at the time satelite towns to Melbourne and country passenger networks. It was Hamer he decided against building the Doncaster line during the construction of the Eastern Fwy, Cain just took it off the table. Hamer also decided not to build to Rowville link through Waverley as well.

So when you want to point at just Labor premier closure add in a few Liberal closures as well. Kennett shut the Leongatha line pretty much staright after being elected, only to have to reopen it to Cranbourne a few years later. Bolte encountered a similar problem when he shut the Whittlesea line at Thomastown only to have to reopen it to Epping. Hamer closed a large number of country stations, some of which would be particularly useful now on the Bendigo and Ballarat lines.

As I have said before, public spending on rail networks in Victoria over the last 50 odd years has been an absolute bloody disgrace and it is a massive failing of every single government going back to Bolte. So many governments have talked about it, but very little has ever been done, most of what has been done is purely reversing poor decisions made earlier.
 

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I see the advertising for the east west link now focusses on providing a second river crossing to relieve the citilink tunnel and west gate bridge, which means the priority always should have been the western part of it rather than the east
Not that im suggesting they did the reverse for political reasons, government in victoria is won and lost in the outer east and regional centres
 

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Jan 13, 2001
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I see the advertising for the east west link now focusses on providing a second river crossing to relieve the citilink tunnel and west gate bridge, which means the priority always should have been the western part of it rather than the east
Not that im suggesting they did the reverse for political reasons, government in victoria is won and lost in the outer east and regional centres
The advertising it there to show that the government is doing something.

The whole thing about the east-West tunnell I'd like to know is what are the traffic flow numbers in morning peak over the Bolte Bridge heading North and in Royal Park going past the Zoo West & Flemington Rd heading North-West past the Royal Children'. These numbers would actually show how much traffic coming of the Eastern and Monash freeways is realistically crossing over the city. I strongly believe, and so does infrastructure Australia, that these numbers are nowhere near satisfactory to financially justify the tunnel. You're not going to relieve the build up at the city end of the Eastern Fwy if the traffic is going across town.

If they actually implement the traffic strategy some have talked about in reducing Alexandra Pde by one lane the there will be a net loss. If anyone has travelled along the Eastern Fwy between 7:30-9am it is regularly banked back to Yarra Bend Rd (1.5km to Hoddle St, 1.8km to Alexandra Pde) and even the Chandler Hwy (3km from Hoddle St, 3.3km to Alexandra Pde), get an accident and its back to Burke Rd. Given the entrance to the tunnel will be approximately 300m from Hoddle St, to offer any real relief in peak hour it would need to be at least 1km, unfrotunately there is a very major problem at that distance, Merri Creek-Yarra River junction (800m from Hoddle St). So looking at all this, it is very clear that an East-West tunnel commencing near Hoddle St will actually not offer the travel benefits being proposed by the government by the false and misleading estimates (the modelling system used by the Vic government has been proven multiple times to be massively flawed).
 

Todman

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As I have said before, public spending on rail networks in Victoria over the last 50 odd years has been an absolute bloody disgrace and it is a massive failing of every single government going back to Bolte. So many governments have talked about it, but very little has ever been done, most of what has been done is purely reversing poor decisions made earlier.

Labor are not interested in fixing the rail networks, especially when the public think they are better than the liberals on the subject. If they fixed it properly, rather than the bandaids solutions, it would be an own goal against them. No longer an election winner.


Until Bracks came along, the only train Labor ever bought was the one Tarango double decker that had so many problems it was parked at the Newport rail museum after only a few years. Most of the "new" trains under Brumby were refurished Comeng trains that Bolte ordered that came into service in 1972.
 
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Labor are not interested in fixing the rail networks, especially when the public think they are better than the liberals on the subject. If they fixed it properly, rather than the bandaids solutions, it would be an own goal against them. No longer an election winner.


Until Bracks came along, the only train Labor ever bought was the one Tarango double decker that had so many problems it was parked at the Newport rail museum after only a few years. Most of the "new" trains under Brumby were refurished Comeng trains that Bolte ordered that came into service in 1972.
Firstly I will say that virtually every decision made by the Joan Kirner government was a complete and utter disaster, the double-decker train was just one of them, pretty sure it could only run on two lines because it was to high.

Secondly Bolte didn't order the Comeng trains, he ordered the Hitachi trains (the silver ones with no air-con and would become a suana in summer). Lindsay Tanner placed the first order for 50 Comeng trains in 1981, when he took over from Hamer.

Thirdly, it was also the Bracks government that order the X-Tapolis trains (2002) to replace the old Hitachi trains, not the refurbishment of the Comeng trains (which did happen under Brumby), which came into service in the 1980s not 1970s.

You'll find that it was the Cain government that decommissioned the last of the old Red-Rattlers (last finished circa 1985). They commissioned extra Comeng trains from the original 50 ordered by Lindsay Tanner to 90 (think that was the number can remember a big banner on one of them above the windows that went the full length of the train declaring it the 45th Supertrain, celebrating half of the trains to be built and the replacement of the last red-rattler), most of which are still in service today (although refitted).

I notice that you also refuse to acknowledge that the Jeff Kennett failed to do anything in his 8 years as premier despite it becoming very apparent by his second term that the Hitachi trains put into service in the mid-70s were in deperate need of replacing.

So please make sure you actually post correct facts, not the Liberal Party version which contains a number of factual inaccuracies.
 

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I believe the cross town component at the end of the eastern is in the order of just 10%

It certainly doesn't justify the amount of investment priority compared to the available resources (nealry all of them at the moment)

Who. Knows what the result will be. Just a 10% reduction in traffic will fisibly improve the experience of people who are bound to and from the city

But will an alternative to citylink and the truck run through bulleen to northen ring road may mean more traffic comes this way? Hence the same or more congestion. If its to be privately tolled, they will want to encourage more traffic, and citilink may have to be compensated if it thinks its losing patronage.

If the government is openly saying it will ease traffic on citylink they may already have agreed to do a deal with transurban
 

swingdog

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I believe the cross town component at the end of the eastern is in the order of just 10%

It certainly doesn't justify the amount of investment priority compared to the available resources (nealry all of them at the moment)

Who. Knows what the result will be. Just a 10% reduction in traffic will fisibly improve the experience of people who are bound to and from the city

But will an alternative to citylink and the truck run through bulleen to northen ring road may mean more traffic comes this way? Hence the same or more congestion. If its to be privately tolled, they will want to encourage more traffic, and citilink may have to be compensated if it thinks its losing patronage.

If the government is openly saying it will ease traffic on citylink they may already have agreed to do a deal with transurban

It's 7 per cent, Pess, and any gain in traffic is always swallowed up by induced demand.

You're right, the state government (and us) will be paying out the operator for a long time (30 years is the usual contract), because none of them will take it on themselves. Simple reason, without exits into the CBD this thing swallows money with no profit.
 

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And those people who are crossing may elect to not pay the tolls anyway. Sure it will save time but if youve ever wasted time arguing with a very unfriendly toll company its a spec in the ocean. Once youve got through the congestion its out of your live, while those red letters from citilink seem to keep coming forever

Its robin hood in reverse
 

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The govt and its fircest critics love it to be coined as a road v rail argument, nice and simple for mug voters to make a choice.

Trouble is the real argument is east west link or 101 other smaller road or rail projects which will sometimes return four times the investment. Thers a danger funds will be starved to these less high profile projects

And the fact the govt has returned to intense politicising of the infrastructure debate which we were slowly moving away from, a real pity
 

Todman

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Firstly I will say that virtually every decision made by the Joan Kirner government was a complete and utter disaster, the double-decker train was just one of them, pretty sure it could only run on two lines because it was to high.

Secondly Bolte didn't order the Comeng trains, he ordered the Hitachi trains (the silver ones with no air-con and would become a suana in summer). Lindsay Tanner placed the first order for 50 Comeng trains in 1981, when he took over from Hamer.

Thirdly, it was also the Bracks government that order the X-Tapolis trains (2002) to replace the old Hitachi trains, not the refurbishment of the Comeng trains (which did happen under Brumby), which came into service in the 1980s not 1970s.

You'll find that it was the Cain government that decommissioned the last of the old Red-Rattlers (last finished circa 1985). They commissioned extra Comeng trains from the original 50 ordered by Lindsay Tanner to 90 (think that was the number can remember a big banner on one of them above the windows that went the full length of the train declaring it the 45th Supertrain, celebrating half of the trains to be built and the replacement of the last red-rattler), most of which are still in service today (although refitted).

I notice that you also refuse to acknowledge that the Jeff Kennett failed to do anything in his 8 years as premier despite it becoming very apparent by his second term that the Hitachi trains put into service in the mid-70s were in deperate need of replacing.

So please make sure you actually post correct facts, not the Liberal Party version which contains a number of factual inaccuracies.

Don't mouth off about inaccuracies. Your spiel has errors as well.

1. It was Lindsay Thompson AO, CMG who was the Liberal state Premier not Lindsay Tanner (ALP Federal member of Melbourne) Thompson was also Bolte's Education minister, he could not have ordered the Hatachi's..


As for Jeff he stopped the rorting by the TWU had that strangled Public transport.


I admit I got the Comeng and the Hatachi's mixed up. The Hatachi's were the best train to drive as say some of my Train driving friends have commented.
 
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Don't mouth off about inaccuracies. Your spiel has errors as well.

1. It was Lindsay Thompson AO, CMG who was the Liberal state Premier not Lindsay Tanner (ALP Federal member of Melbourne) Thompson was also Bolte's Education minister, he could not have ordered the Hatachi's..


As for Jeff he stopped the rorting by the TWU had that strangled Public transport.


I admit I got the Comeng and the Hatachi's mixed up. The Hatachi's were the best train to drive as say some of my Train driving friends have commented.
My apologies, started typing Lindsay and did it once and got stuck typing the same thing not realising my mistake.

I did say Bolte ordered the Hitachi trains, was one of the last decisions he made before handing over to Hamer.
 
Just caught the end of a news report on Ch7 this week regarding a government employee granting contracts to family and friends but haven't been able to find out any more on this. Anyone have a link?
Apparently he received some nice cash which enabled him to buy a house and condo in the Philippines.
 

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Corruption is a good reason to change governments regularly, but they are going to have to learn to not want to throw out the infrastructure strategy because it isnt theirs.

We simply can afford wasted years like the last three, at least not every four years
 
Don't mouth off about inaccuracies. Your spiel has errors as well.

1. It was Lindsay Thompson AO, CMG who was the Liberal state Premier not Lindsay Tanner (ALP Federal member of Melbourne) Thompson was also Bolte's Education minister, he could not have ordered the Hatachi's..


As for Jeff he stopped the rorting by the TWU had that strangled Public transport.


I admit I got the Comeng and the Hatachi's mixed up. The Hatachi's were the best train to drive as say some of my Train driving friends have commented.
Yet most of your post in regards to PT investment in Victoria was/is wrong.
 
We did need a new public transport ticketing system, its just they made the wrong decision. The final two bids were by Myki and the company behind the Oyster card which operates in London, they chose the wrong one.

The desal had been debated for a while, they just made a rushed decision about it as the drought was getting worse.

A new East-West link isn't need where they are building it though. There are 6 more need transport projects.
  1. Metro rail tunnel. Current city rail stations are at capacity and we need to relieve them.
  2. Ring Rd-Eastern Fwy link. This is the real missing link in Melbourne's transport infrastructure and would also remove the need for the second East-West tunnel. Having this link would allow a link to the Hume Fwy/Hwy without using CityLink.
  3. Widening of the Chandler Hwy. With the increase in population density and the soon to begin redevelopment of the paper mill site at Alphington the Chandler is already a nightmare and putting another few thousand cars in the area isn't going to improve things.
  4. Third railway track between Caulfield and Dandenong. The busiest metro train line is also clogged by v-line trains to Gippsland and freight traffic. A third track would remove stress on this line allowing more commuter trains thus taking more traffic off the Monash.
  5. Easier access to Port of Melbourne from Westgate. We need to get heavy trucks of residential streets, having better ramp access would also help provide better traffic flow on the Westgate Fwy.
  6. Airport rail link. For a city of our size not to have one is embarrassing. Build a rail link and you will automatically solve a heap of the traffic issues on the Tullamarine Fwy as the need to drive for many will be eliminated. An express train linking the airport to the Melbourne CBD would actually be widely used by corporates as well as passenger travellers.
An excellent post. IMO point number 4 is probably the most critical.

With regards to point 1, that may be what the public are being sold, but more trains on the tube arrive at stations much more frequently than they do in our network. The bottleneck is not the city loop, the bottleneck are the incoming lines, such as you mentioned in point 4. They've started on plans to relieve the western lines but it seems no one is willing to outlay tens of millions, if not billions, to make the urgently required upgrades to the SE lines. Arguably three lines are also required on the Northern Lines (Epping/Hurtsbridge), the Frankston lines and North-Western lines. The problem with any line with two tracks is that there is no way to run more frequent services as there is no way for express trains to bypass delayed stopping all stations trains. This is particularly evident on the Dandenong line, where express trains are often halted at signals to wait for all stops trains ahead of it to clear the tracks. The problem is not restricted to that line, it is just more obvious, and as our population grows, those lines with two tracks that aren't as much of a problem right now will clearly become problems down the track.

The problem we have in public transport in Victoria, and this is in no way intended to be a politically motivated comment, is that that Bolter Government detested public transport believing cars were the answer and had no eye on the future. This was a particularly disastrous outlook purely because of the time they were in office. Try as we may, we will forever be trying to catch up and make up for the lack of investment in public transport infrastructure during this period.

What an amazing difference inner and outer train loops would make to decentralising Melbournes reliance on the CBD. Oakleigh to Box Hill in 15 minutes or Caulfield to Camberwell in 15 minutes would make the world of difference in transport and reducing our reliance on already over congested roads.

Everything is easy in hindsight though ;)
 
Would've thought that the Doncaster rail link would be up on the list then to relieve pressure on Eastern Fwy traffic heading into the city.

I can see as many trips being made on the airport train link than the proposed East-West tunnell which has no city access and you can charge more for it too.

Current skybus fares:
  • $18 Adult - one way - return $30
  • $41 Family 2- (2 adults and 1-4 children) - return $70
  • $25 Family 1- (1 adult and 1-4 children) - return $43
  • $7 Child (4-14 years) - return $13
  • $140 - 10 trip ticket
Sydney Airport raillink
  • $16.40 Adult - one way
  • $32.80 Adult return - with access to suburban rail network
  • $12.50 Concession
So working off that a Melbourne airport link would stop North Melbourne and Cityloop stations
  • $16.00* Adult - one way
  • $30.00* Adult same day return - with access to suburban rail network
  • $12.50* Concession
  • $24.00* Concession same day return - with full access to suburban rail network.
* plus one off purchase price of reusable myki card $6. (unfortunately due to our stupid ticketing system you'd need one of these)

By comparison citylink currently charge a capped rate of $8.06 for travel along the Monash to Melbourne Airport, in a car that can carry more than one person.

The sums do add up, just Napthine is a vet and no good at maths.
Your prices look about right, which means that it would cost roughly the same as a sky bus trip, which isn't really that popular at the moment. A rail link to the airport pretty much caters for one type of traveller, the holiday maker and/or tourist. If said traveller currently doesn't want to catch a train to Southern Cross and take an express bus leaving every ten minutes, I'm unconvinced spending billions in the hop said traveller would change their mind if there was a train rather than a bus is the right way to go.

The other large category of traveller, the business man/woman, is still likely to look to door to door taxi or chauffeur services.
 
Until Bracks came along, the only train Labor ever bought was the one Tarango double decker that had so many problems it was parked at the Newport rail museum after only a few years. Most of the "new" trains under Brumby were refurished Comeng trains that Bolte ordered that came into service in 1972.
I think you mean Brumby. Bracks was "I'll look in to it", do nothing Premier that was scared to do anything after the Kennett era. Brumby was a doer, unfortunately Labor was already doomed by the time he got to leadership. The majority of his decisions, such as purchasing trains and trams, were long term and not short term decisions.
 
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Your prices look about right, which means that it would cost roughly the same as a sky bus trip, which isn't really that popular at the moment. A rail link to the airport pretty much caters for one type of traveller, the holiday maker and/or tourist. If said traveller currently doesn't want to catch a train to Southern Cross and take an express bus leaving every ten minutes, I'm unconvinced spending billions in the hop said traveller would change their mind if there was a train rather than a bus is the right way to go.

The other large category of traveller, the business man/woman, is still likely to look to door to door taxi or chauffeur services.
Not true, if you were to run a regular express train to the city which to say 20 minutes you'd find a number of corporates would use it just like they do in Sydney. I travel to Sydney on a regular basis and see corporates heading to the train from the business flights (6-7am Melb-Syd). When you have a train that is faster than taxi and does not have the same risk of traffic, corporates will use it if it is convenient to where they are heading.

Travellers don't like the bus because it doesn't give as smooth a trip as a train.
 
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What an amazing difference inner and outer train loops would make to decentralising Melbournes reliance on the CBD. Oakleigh to Box Hill in 15 minutes or Caulfield to Camberwell in 15 minutes would make the world of difference in transport and reducing our reliance on already over congested roads.

Everything is easy in hindsight though ;)
We had a train line that did that 120 years ago.
 
Not true, if you were to run a regular express train to the city which to say 20 minutes you'd find a number of corporates would use it just like they do in Sydney. I travel to Sydney on a regular basis and see corporates heading to the train from the business flights (6-7am Melb-Syd). When you have a train that is faster than taxi and does not have the same risk of traffic, corporates will use it if it is convenient to where they are heading.

Travellers don't like the bus because it doesn't give as smooth a trip as a train.
I suppose my point is that we have faaaaar more important transport issues that need to be resolved and dealt with before we spend billions on an airport link.
 
We had a train line that did that 120 years ago.
The Alamein extension to East Malvern was closed in the 20's IIRC.

The inner circle which ran through Fitzroy, while closed to passenger trains in the 40's still operated freight trains until it was closed by Bolte (surprise surprise) as recently as 1981.
 

swingdog

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Little bit of trivia for those who live around North Fitzroy or know Edinburgh Gardens: where there is now a dog park was the end of the freight train line for that inner circle, and the home of a large glass factory.

It's why the local doctor's surgery was, for a long time, the only place pout side the big hospitals where they actually did surgery. Close for those workers suffering industrial accidents.

/ end of trivia
 
I can't understand why they want to add another lane on the Tulla. This will cause just a bigger bottleneck if getting off at Flemington Road.
Is it because they can start charging tolls before Moreland Road?
The biggest mistake they did was limiting cars from the Bolte heading South bound through the tunnels to one lane. That's caused one of the biggest bottlenecks on the freeway system.
 

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