Israel, Palestine, and everything related

[Lester Burnham]

no no no.

this is not their position. this is not the far rights position. this is the far right's rhetoric

just like hamas.

the rhetoric is emboldened and bombastic. but it is not governing. why cant people see this.

because ultimately the rhetoric matters little, the actions speak louder

 

[blackcat]

because ultimately the rhetoric matters little, the actions speak louder

and we are talking if Bibi will govern like the far right's rhetoric and raze Gaza.

Its rhetoric. Bibi wont raze Gaza like the far right assert he should

 

[Smiling Buddha]

If Bibi has now adopted the far right's position, that the solution is to level Gaza with no regard to the welfare of the resident population, he should be called out on it. The EU, US, Australia and everyone else should be condemning him for it and withdrawing political and economic support.

And what we need to ask ourselves is why our leaders don't do that.

Why they instead do much the opposite:

The resolution to end “all Israeli settlement activities in all of the occupied territories” was supported by 158 nations. Australia was one of only eight nations to abstain.

Australia was one of only five countries to abstain from calling for Israel to “comply scrupulously” with the 1949 Geneva Convention. The resolution was supported by 160 nations.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-bid-for-balance/story-fn59nm2j-1226767760779

There is a reason, and it is probably related to whatever is the answer to the question in the thread title.

 

[blackcat]

There is a reason, and it is probably related to whatever is the answer to the question in the thread title.

Carr's diaries

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Carr's diaries

but the msm at the time told me that the biggest thing to be found in Carr's diaries were his complaints about flying business class or something

 

[GarnerSmash]

Yet Hamas have the right to actively target civilian populations for the sole purpose of killing civilians?

No, they don't.

But Israel have a defence force backed by over a $16 billion spend each year, a secret service with a reputation for efficiency, yet they think the best way to respond to home made rockets from Hamas that generally fail to get through their defences, and those that do do comparatively minimal damage, is to kill over a thousand civilians by bombing the s**t out of densely populated civilian areas in the hope of taking out active members of Hamas.

Surely they can think of smarter, more clinical ways of dealing with Hamas. Unless of course that isn't the ultimate objective...

 

[carnthemlions]

* that's apocalyptic.

The second video is absolutely shocking. How can the Israelis claim this a defensive action to remove the threat from tunnels? It appears they are flattening Gaza to make it inhabitable.

It's become increasingly difficult to see how the plausible deniability defence can be swallowed by anyone outside Israel(the Israeli media doesn't do a whole lot of reporting on what's really happening). "There were militants/weapons in those 7 schools, numerous hospitals and the power plant we hit. Probably some tunnels too. We didn't mean to kill all those civilians, they were just in the way."
It's quite frightening that plenty of people within Israel want to widen the conflict.

 

[Redalert]

Surely they can think of smarter, more clinical ways of dealing with Hamas.

Such as?

 

[GarnerSmash]

Such as?

I'm not in the military, nor in any covert group, nor have command of military technologies beyond the scope of anything available to the public, so I'm not the person to ask. Perhaps they should just, you know, try a little harder? Come up with something? Anything really, instead of herding Palestinians into a ghetto and then levelling districts within that ghetto with impunity. There is no justification for this. None.

Or maybe Israel could talk with Hamas, try work something out. They did say to the Palestinian authority back in the day that they wouldn't recognise them because they don't represent Hamas, then they formed a govt with Hamas, to which Israel responded that they wouldn't deal with a government formed with terrorists. Makes you wonder what their real motivation is.

But of course Hamas will continue doing what they are doing, because, well, they represent a radicalised faction of a disenfranchised people who have lost their land and their homes, gradually over the decades and in clear contravention of UN resolutions, and been herded into a walled ghetto which has been repeatedly bombarded by a modern military force that views Gaza as a military base rather than a city/nation crammed with civilians. I don't agree with them killing Israeli civilians at all, but I understand how people like that can become radicalised and want to return fire. If Israel really wanted to deal with Hamas I am pretty confident that they could come up with a solution that doesn't involve infants being dismembered.

 

[Redalert]

I'm not in the military, nor in any covert group, nor have command of military technologies beyond the scope of anything available to the public, so I'm not the person to ask. Perhaps they should just, you know, try a little harder? Come up with something? Anything really, instead of herding Palestinians into a ghetto and then levelling districts within that ghetto with impunity. There is no justification for this. None.

Or maybe Israel could talk with Hamas, try work something out. They did say to the Palestinian authority back in the day that they wouldn't recognise them because they don't represent Hamas, then they formed a govt with Hamas, to which Israel responded that they wouldn't deal with a government formed with terrorists. Makes you wonder what their real motivation is.

But of course Hamas will continue doing what they are doing, because, well, they represent a radicalised faction of a disenfranchised people who have lost their land and their homes, gradually over the decades and in clear contravention of UN resolutions, and been herded into a walled ghetto which has been repeatedly bombarded by a modern military force that views Gaza as a military base rather than a city/nation crammed with civilians. I don't agree with them killing Israeli civilians at all, but I understand how people like that can become radicalised and want to return fire. If Israel really wanted to deal with Hamas I am pretty confident that they could come up with a solution that doesn't involve infants being dismembered.

The reason is that there are no military alternatives, we saw the exact the same thing in Iraq where the US invasion killed 100,000+ civilians. There's absolutely no incentive for Israel to go out of its way to civilians, its bad PR from their perspective and it hurts their cause more than anything. However, it happens because that's what you get when you conduct operations in an urban environment where its almost impossible to differentiate between combatants and-non-combatants. For the record I think the loss of any civilian life in Gaza/Israel is a tragedy, but I'm more getting at why its happening.

Also do you really honestly believe that a peaceful resolution is workable here? Hamas and half the Arab world don't recognise the right of Israel to exist at all, so what hope is there for meaningful long-term deal? Israel's in a catch 22, if they make concessions and end the blockade they face the very real possibility of Hamas arming themselves and escalating attacks. If they surrender territory they'll have another Gaza on their hands, which is exactly what happened in 2006. If they stop settlement activity they lose face both internally and in front of Hamas, it shows that they can be cowed through armed resistance.

And Hamas is in the exact same position (particularly the last point)! These two nations have been at war for the last 60+ years and they'll be at war until one destroys the other, the radicalisation among both peoples happened a long time ago and the hate is deep set enough to make peace impossible.

 

[blackcat]

No, they don't.

But Israel have a defence force backed by over a $16 billion spend each year, a secret service with a reputation for efficiency, yet they think the best way to respond to home made rockets from Hamas that generally fail to get through their defences, and those that do do comparatively minimal damage, is to kill over a thousand civilians by bombing the s**t out of densely populated civilian areas in the hope of taking out active members of Hamas.

Surely they can think of smarter, more clinical ways of dealing with Hamas. Unless of course that isn't the ultimate objective...

yo B, hypothetically, i agree

but here is a devils advocate. p'raps emphasis on the qualifier devils



Jonathon Cook on the discriminatory premise denying legitimacy of assymetric warfare: http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=9667

 

[blackcat]

Rabbi Henry Siegman, he was the head of US Jewish Councils, the umbrella group. he talks about Ben Gurion with Herzl, the founder, with orders to line up Palestinians and shoot them in 48 when the ethnic cleansing operation was underway. (Plan Delat, thats hebrew for "plan D")
the full vid, it prolly around 30
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/30/henry_siegman_leading_voice_of_us

 

[clogged]

but the msm at the time told me that the biggest thing to be found in Carr's diaries were his complaints about flying business class or something

And the morons on the Aus politics board lapped it up.

 

[Slax]

If the UN is ever going to be considered an effective place then Israel must be sanctioned now by the security council. The attrocitous and war crimes being committed are now beyond a joke, the worst part is no-one will ever be held to account by Israel.

Israel condones terrorism because it is in its benefit to force it to happen so it can complete it's dream of ethnic cleansing.

If we are willing to apply sanctions to Russia over Ukraine then why hasn't anything been done to Israel? Abbott and Bishop have shown how stupid it was to change the stance on Palestine, but considering how much else they've screwed up it isn't surprising.

 

[slicedndiced]

Every morning one wakes up to yet another atrocity towards Pal civilians that is dressed up as a mistake by Israel, or "but, but the baddies lobbed a mortar from the school yard", so we had no option but to blow the s**t out of it, kids and all".

It is the most awful, dreadful and horrific Groundhog Day ever.

I'm sorry, I have tried to remain balanced on this, but the Israeli's can go and get f***ed over this.

Despicable.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

I'm sorry, I have tried to remain balanced on this, but the Israeli's can go and get f***ed over this.

Despicable.

Worth bearing in mind that the Australian Defence Force in partnership with the US and other allies did some despicable things in Iraq, including supporting the 'sanctions' following Desert Storm. Would you say that Australia can 'go and get ****ed'? Remember that some 500,000 Iraqi children are though to have died as a result of the first Gulf War and the sanctions which followed it. Five Hundred Thousand.



Now I would argue YES, we are a corrupt nation and our tax dollars support the raping and pillaging of innocent people at the behest of a small cabal of parasites who rule over not just Australians but a number of people the world over. We are essentially an occupied nation who through our apathy are just as responsible for innocent Arab deaths as the Israeli citizens are for what the IDF is currently doing.

 

[slicedndiced]

Worth bearing in mind that the Australian Defence Force in partnership with the US and other allies did some despicable things in Iraq, including supporting the 'sanctions' following Desert Storm. Would you say that Australia can 'go and get ******'? Remember that some 500,000 Iraqi children are though to have died as a result of the first Gulf War and the sanctions which followed it. Five Hundred Thousand.



Now I would argue YES, we are a corrupt nation and our tax dollars support the raping and pillaging of innocent people at the behest of a small cabal of parasites who rule over not just Australians but a number of people the world over. We are essentially an occupied nation who through our apathy are just as responsible for innocent Arab deaths as the Israeli citizens are for what the IDF is currently doing.

Mate, I pushed my daughter around in a pram at protests against the war in Iraq BEFORE we sent troops in.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Mate, I pushed my daughter around in a pram at protests against the war in Iraq BEFORE we sent troops in.

I am glad to hear it, and I will be there to protest if and when we get told that Australia is sending 'peacekeeping troops' to Ukraine (or wherever).

The important part to note is that it makes not an ounce of difference. Our democracy is a sham and so long as we support the system with our labour (taxes, the modern term for tribute) then the kings will continue to rape and pillage other humans not only in our name but with our assistance.

 

[manboob]

The important part to note is that it makes not an ounce of difference. Our democracy is a sham and so long as we support the system with our labour (taxes, the modern term for tribute) then the kings will continue to rape and pillage other humans not only in our name but with our assistance.

What's your solution? I hear this diatribe again and again with no alternative proffered. Are you a marxist, anarchist, libertarian? ... it's hard to tell. Or you don't buy into postcolonial dialectical categorisations...

 

[Smiling Buddha]

What's your solution? I hear this diatribe again and again with no alternative proffered. Are you a marxist, anarchist, libertarian? ... it's hard to tell. Or you don't buy into postcolonial dialectical categorisations...

My 'solution' is probably best left for another thread; the point I was making was simply that we here in Australia are as complicit in atrocities committed by our gov/mic as Israelis are complicit in atrocities committed by their gov/mic - insofar as we support the system that commits those atrocities.

And let's not kid ourselves here: the majority of Australians, even if given the simple choice in some fantasy future scenario where the choices presented were real, would take the system they have now, with their dollars and loans and the crap they buy with it, and the atrocities committed by men in our name out of sight; over a system without those dollars and loans and no atrocities committed by men in our name.

Our problem is not merely a political one, it is a cultural one. To look at one sick culture and chastise them without recognising the sickness within our own is hypocrisy in the extreme.

 

[carnthemlions]

What's your solution? I hear this diatribe again and again with no alternative proffered. Are you a marxist, anarchist, libertarian? ... it's hard to tell. Or you don't buy into postcolonial dialectical categorisations...

* knows. It's pretty much "old man yells at cloud" anyway.

My 'solution' is probably best left for another thread; the point I was making was simply that we here in Australia are as complicit in atrocities committed by our gov/mic as Israelis are complicit in atrocities committed by their gov/mic - insofar as we support the system that commits those atrocities.

And let's not kid ourselves here: the majority of Australians, even if given the simple choice in some fantasy future scenario where the choices presented were real, would take the system they have now, with their dollars and loans and the crap they buy with it, and the atrocities committed by men in our name out of sight; over a system without those dollars and loans and no atrocities committed by men in our name.

Our problem is not merely a political one, it is a cultural one. To look at one sick culture and chastise them without recognising the sickness within our own is hypocrisy in the extreme.

You say a lot, but none of it really means anything.

 

[Lester Burnham]

The second video is absolutely shocking. How can the Israelis claim this a defensive action to remove the threat from tunnels? It appears they are flattening Gaza to make it inhabitable.

I think I meant uninhabitable. Inhabitable = habitable?

Anyhoo, worth remembering that not all Israelis support what is going on in Gaza. A friend of mine in Tel Aviv, a Yemeni Jew, sent me this video of Gerald Kaufman. The transcript is in the 'show more' if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

 

[awaremind]

My 'solution' is probably best left for another thread; the point I was making was simply that we here in Australia are as complicit in atrocities committed by our gov/mic as Israelis are complicit in atrocities committed by their gov/mic - insofar as we support the system that commits those atrocities.

And let's not kid ourselves here: the majority of Australians, even if given the simple choice in some fantasy future scenario where the choices presented were real, would take the system they have now, with their dollars and loans and the crap they buy with it, and the atrocities committed by men in our name out of sight; over a system without those dollars and loans and no atrocities committed by men in our name.

Our problem is not merely a political one, it is a cultural one. To look at one sick culture and chastise them without recognising the sickness within our own is hypocrisy in the extreme.

There is only ever going to be 1 thing that can change things and that would be a simultaneous global revolution, against oligarchs and bureaucracy the world over and then a leveling out and redistribution of wealth and power. World economy and politics is corrupt and rotten to the core.

 

[manboob]

Back on topic. Does anyone seriously believe the State of Palestine state still exist in 20 years? I can just see Israel occupying both territories and be done with it.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

You say a lot, but none of it really means anything.

It might be over your head. No shame in that.