Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

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lachy said:
Seriously, worst performance in the clubs history.

Worse than 80,81 and 82, 65 to 69 bottom 3 every year.

You want the pro Macca's to answer a question with a statement so ridiculous it's laughable.

When will you get it through your head there are very few pro Maccas, just like there are very few anti Maccas. Most are giving fair time but will decide one way or another.

At least Matt Douggie, Black Pup and even to a lesser extent Fred Cook will debate their position.

You, can't coach took over a good list and we should never have dropped because you don't think we should have
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I congratulate MD, BP and FC, for their patience and willingness to give you enough concessions to make you feel like your position has more justification than I think it does.

I don't have the patience (or time) to debate every flaw in the convoluted tangle of excuses that people like yourself continually trot out to explain why McCartney isn't at fault for our poor results during his tenure. I am also not willing to concede that there is more substance to some of these excuses than I really believe there is (such as the supposed poor state of our list when he took over), simply to make you feel a bit better about the discussion.

For example when you last replied to a post of mine regarding the state of the list when McCartney took over. You posted a list of 16 players, presumably to illustrate what McCartney had missed out on when he took over. Unfortunately your list included only 3 players that actually retired/moved on to other clubs at the end of 2011.

While the thought of debating the many flaws in your list did cross my mind at the time, after due consideration I decided it would be a rather pointless exercise. If you can't already see the flaws in the convoluted reasoning that you use to rationalise your position, then I am unlikely to be able to convince you of their existence.

By the way, as someone that didn't miss too many games during the 80-82 period, my opinion is that 2012-2014 has been much worse, and not just in terms of ladder position. Perhaps there is just something about seeing things being torn down unnecessarily that makes it more painful to watch than seeing someone fail trying to build them up.
 
dogsfan said:
Don't forget 2002 to 2004 we finished 12th, 16th ! (wooden spoon) and 14th that was a horrible 3 year period. I rate those years as one of the worst periods in our history just on how bad we actually played and how we were coached rather than simply looking at the ladder finishes.
Sometimes I would even dry reach watching us play that brand of footy. :drunk:
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Also don't forget we almost went under during that period. Conversely under McCartney we lured a very good best 18 opposition player away from a big club and set up our own VFL team.
 
Port Adelaide 2012 to 2013?
US 1996 to 1997
2004 to 2005

Did either stat get a flag I thought this was all about rebuilding not a flash in a pan stat
 

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Proffessor said:
I congratulate MD, BP and FC, for their patience and willingness to give you enough concessions to make you feel like your position has more justification than I think it does.

I don't have the patience (or time) to debate every flaw in the convoluted tangle of excuses that people like yourself continually trot out to explain why McCartney isn't at fault for our poor results during his tenure. I am also not willing to concede that there is more substance to some of these excuses than I really believe there is (such as the supposed poor state of our list when he took over), simply to make you feel a bit better about the discussion.

For example when you last replied to a post of mine regarding the state of the list when McCartney took over. You posted a list of 16 players, presumably to illustrate what McCartney had missed out on when he took over. Unfortunately your list included only 3 players that actually retired/moved on to other clubs at the end of 2011.

While the thought of debating the many flaws in your list did cross my mind at the time, after due consideration I decided it would be a rather pointless exercise. If you can't already see the flaws in the convoluted reasoning that you use to rationalise your position, then I am unlikely to be able to convince you of their existence.

By the way, as someone that didn't miss too many games during the 80-82 period, my opinion is that 2012-2014 has been much worse, and not just in terms of ladder position. Perhaps there is just something about seeing things being torn down unnecessarily that makes it more painful to watch than seeing someone fail trying to build them up.
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Really Professor. Below is the list and also my statement, Retired, left or were injured or were nowhere near the platers they were
Just to follow on from my earlier reply the following players had either left, retired, were injured or were no where near the player they were during those teams:
Johnson
Hahn
Gilbee
Eagleton
Giansiracusa
Ward
Hudson
Cooney
Akermanis
Hargraves
Welsh
Lake
Morris
Harbrow
Cross
Hall

I really didn't know how pathetically stupid either your knowledge or bias is. Just for you:

Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton, Ward, Hudson, Akermanis, Welsh, Harborw and Hall had left. In case you don't have enough fingers that is 9 not 3. You are only out by 200%.

Cooney did his knee in 2009
Moirris had a broken leg
Lake missed nearly all of the last season through injury

None of them will ever be what they were though a couple of years later Morris is certainly a valuable player

The above are FACTS not my opinion.

My opinion is the other 4 Gilbee, Hargeave, Gia and Cross were on the way down from the preliminary years

So really keep posting Proff your ignorance and lack of ability to provide any substance consistently shines through
 
fred cook said:
Port Adelaide 2012 to 2013?
US 1996 to 1997
2004 to 2005

Did either stat get a flag I thought this was all about rebuilding not a flash in a pan stat
Click to expand...
Ultimately yes, however unless you are reading something in the posts that is obscure to you, most are talking about being competitive for the 8 next year not the flag.
 
lachy said:
Really Professor. Below is the list and also my statement, Retired, left or were injured or were nowhere near the platers they were
Just to follow on from my earlier reply the following players had either left, retired, were injured or were no where near the player they were during those teams:
Johnson
Hahn
Gilbee
Eagleton
Giansiracusa
Ward
Hudson
Cooney
Akermanis
Hargraves
Welsh
Lake
Morris
Harbrow
Cross
Hall

I really didn't know how pathetically stupid either your knowledge or bias is. Just for you:

Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton, Ward, Hudson, Akermanis, Welsh, Harborw and Hall had left. In case you don't have enough fingers that is 9 not 3. You are only out by 200%.

Cooney did his knee in 2009
Moirris had a broken leg
Lake missed nearly all of the last season through injury

None of them will ever be what they were though a couple of years later Morris is certainly a valuable player

The above are FACTS not my opinion.

My opinion is the other 4 Gilbee, Hargeave, Gia and Cross were on the way down from the preliminary years

So really keep posting Proff your ignorance and lack of ability to provide any substance consistently shines through
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Ahh Lachy, Lachy, Lachy,

The discussion was (and still is) about the state of the list that McCartney inherited at the end of 2011.

Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton, Harbrow, Welsh and Arkermanis had all left before the 2011 season. (Welsh finished up at the end of 2009 for goodness sake!)

So on your list the number of players that left at the end of 2011 was 3.
Hudson, Ward, and Hall.

Your mention of Lake and his injury is amusing because he missed most of the 2011 season but was back and playing well in 2012, so it could
be argued that his return helped offset the above losses when comparing the 2011 and 2012 lists.

As suggested previously, perhaps you should stop trying to attack specific details in people's posts in an attempt to discredit them, and actually consider the premise of their arguments.
 
Proffessor said:
Ahh Lachy, Lachy, Lachy,

The discussion was (and still is) about the state of the list that McCartney inherited at the end of 2011.

Johnson, Hahn, Eagleton, Harbrow, Welsh and Arkermanis had all left before the 2011 season. (Welsh finished up at the end of 2009 for goodness sake!)

So on your list the number of players that left at the end of 2011 was 3.
Hudson, Ward, and Hall.

Your mention of Lake and his injury is amusing because he missed most of the 2011 season but was back and playing well in 2012, so it could
be argued that his return helped offset the above losses when comparing the 2011 and 2012 lists.

As suggested previously, perhaps you should stop trying to attack specific details in people's posts in an attempt to discredit them, and actually consider the premise of their arguments.
Click to expand...

But prof, your argument is he inherited a list that had played in 3 prelims, these are the key players from those 3 prelims he did not have. Therefore, your argument in regards to the list being one that played in 3 prelims is patently wrong.

I am glad you find the Lake argument amusing. Remind me again where he finished in the B&F in a team that finished 15th and compare that to his All Australian form. He has never been the player he was during those preliminary final years since his injury concerns flared up.

It is not about attacking specific details, if the facts supporting the premise are wrong they are wrong. If the premise was he cannot coach as his match day coaching is lacking or selection policy is perplexing, then that is your opinion and really there is nothing to come back at you on that other than unsupported opinions. In fact I am not far away from agreeing with that premise about his coaching.

As I have asked, and I have asked your opinion not even facts, who replaced the 16 players to offset the drop any team would face if they were not replaced.

Did the team not drop substantially down the ladder in 2011 from 2010 with those players mentioned not on the list. So we lose another 3 on top of this, they are not replaced yet you expect improvement?

You accuse the so called pro Macca's which to your definition is anyone not totally anti Macca of coming up with excuses for Macca, yet what exactly is your argument supported by? Sorry wins and losses. Therefore, each year teams that do not improve, go backwards or do not at least make the 4, clearly there are many incompetent coaches as there are no reasons at all that are acceptable for this to happen.

I wanted Eade re appointed for 3 years at the time as it was blatantly obvious a rebuild was necessary with the pain associated with it and I did not want to see unrealistic expectations put on the coach as Smorgon did to Eade in 2011 saying he expected a premiership. I know a lot on this board believe Eade was finished, I am in the minority there, but understand that is my opinion.
 
lachy said:
I wanted Eade re appointed for 3 years at the time as it was blatantly obvious a rebuild was necessary with the pain associated with it and I did not want to see unrealistic expectations put on the coach as Smorgon did to Eade in 2011 saying he expected a premiership. I know a lot on this board believe Eade was finished, I am in the minority there, but understand that is my opinion.
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Expressing an opinion not in line with others.... He's a witch/warlock, get him lads !!!! Where's that pitchfork smilie when you need it.. :p
 
Why does Akermanis keep coming up on that list as "leaving" in 2011?

Do people not realise he was sacked midway through 2010 while Eade was in charge?

I'm not going to go over the stats because I like some are concerned that we're taking it on the slow side and not seeing consistency but...

If you still think guys like Hahn, Johnno, Hudson, Eagleton, Welsh were going to improve after 2010 you have rocks in your head.

Ward left for money.. He was going regardless of whether Eade stayed as it was common knowledge the deal was done midway through 2011.

Hall didn't want to play on, he stated he was struggling every week to prepare for the weekend. Kudos to him for not being selfish and playing on.

Hahn was cooked... Don't for 1 second try to make excuses otherwise, so were Gilbee,Eagleton and Welsh.

Hudson was supposed to have retired yet somehow he played another season at Brisbane then Collingwood.. Who's fault is that?

Johnson never recovered from the injury thanks to the drink cart.. He retired at the end of 2010.

Players like Sherman, Djerrkurra, Skinner, Barlow etcetera were never going to make it.


So, Proffessor, when it comes to your concerns over McCartney and the output of what we see in terms of advancement your argument is valid. But I respectfully disagree on the discussion over the list in that 2010-2011 period.
 
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Mike__ said:
Why does Akermanis keep coming up on that list as "leaving" in 2011?

Do people not realise he was sacked midway through 2010 while Eade was in charge?

I'm not going to go over the stats because I like some are concerned that we're taking it on the slow side and not seeing consistency but...

If you still think guys like Hahn, Johnno, Hudson, Eagleton, Welsh were going to improve after 2010 you have rocks in your head.

Ward left for money.. He was going regardless of whether Eade stayed as it was common knowledge the deal was done midway through 2011.

Hall didn't want to play on, he stated he was struggling every week to prepare for the weekend. Kudos to him for not being selfish and playing on.

Hahn was cooked... Don't for 1 second try to make excuses otherwise, so were Gilbee,Eagleton and Welsh.

Hudson was supposed to have retired yet somehow he played another season at Brisbane then Collingwood.. Who's fault is that?

Johnson never recovered from the injury thanks to the drink cart.. He retired at the end of 2010.

Players like Sherman, Djerrkurra, Skinner, Barlow etcetera were never going to make it.


So, Proffessor, when it comes to your concerns over McCartney and the output of what we see in terms of advancement your argument is valid. But I respectfully disagree on the discussion over the list in that 2010-2011 period.
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Mike Aker is in the discussion as like Welsh he was a key player in the 2008 & 2009 prelim finals. Just demonstrating there is little relevance to the triple premiership team to that taken over by Macca circa 2012.

I don't disagree with the anti Macca brigade re match day, set ups or selection as there has been little meaningful evidence against this, I am just willing to give him a little more time as I do not believe he has sent us backwards.

But to argue the list, lack of resources is non sensical.
 
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I am surprised that this post continues.............wake me up when we get a new coach...........
 

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BRWB said:
You might be a bit out with your dates champion, he is contracted to end of 2016. Unless of course we are now a wealthy club that pisses away 1.5 yrs of coach payments.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2013-11-26/coach-mccartney-extends-deal-
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Yeah we when we sacked Peter CHEAP AS CHIPS it cost us three potato cakes :)
Do your figures here I think BM would be one of the lowest paid coaches in the AFL due to his experience I am going out on a limb here but I reckon it would be roughly 450 K

Scenario 1
So the club decide to keep him at round 14 even though we are getting smashed week after week and only have three wins because he is a good man and we like him and we cant waste money
Scenario 2
Peter Gordon has already seen a decline in membership due to poor form in 2015 and the previous year He understands that if he keeps BM a there will be a major decline in membership and a losing feeling around the club for the following year He makes a business choice sacks BM employees a Senior Coach and he wins a few games at the end of the season and people are eager to join up and be part of the new bulldogs That 500K that he paid BM is already worth it
 
fred cook said:
Yeah we when we sacked Peter CHEAP AS CHIPS it cost us three potato cakes :)
Do your figures here I think BM would be one of the lowest paid coaches in the AFL due to his experience I am going out on a limb here but I reckon it would be roughly 450 K

Scenario 1
So the club decide to keep him at round 14 even though we are getting smashed week after week and only have three wins because he is a good man and we like him and we cant waste money
Scenario 2
Peter Gordon has already seen a decline in membership due to poor form in 2015 and the previous year He understands that if he keeps BM a there will be a major decline in membership and a losing feeling around the club for the following year He makes a business choice sacks BM employees a Senior Coach and he wins a few games at the end of the season and people are eager to join up and be part of the new bulldogs That 500K that he paid BM is already worth it
Click to expand...

OR

Scenario 3 Bulldogs are now competition darlings after a Port like renaissance, and are sitting at a healthy 65% win loss ratio. Macca gets his contracted extended to end of 2017! Proffessor and MattDougie committ Hari kari :D
 
Mike__ said:
Players like Sherman, Djerrkurra, Skinner, Barlow etcetera were never going to make it.
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement here Mike ... just to add to Sherman, Djerrkurra, Skinner, Barlow above. Let's throw in Hooper, Moles, Mulligan, Panos, Schofield, Vespremi, Hill (x2), Stack, Reid (and most probably Howard). That's 15 players in the so called 'no list cloggers' call. We had some great players coming to the end of there careers, some very good players in their prime, but no-one to fill the void. I disagree that our list was in a healthy state. Yes we won 1 more game in 2011, thanks largely to Paul Williams pressing his claims. To say 2011 was stronger than now ... just doesn't add up for me!
 
BRWB said:
OR

Scenario 3 Bulldogs are now competition darlings after a Port like renaissance, and are sitting at a healthy 65% win loss ratio. Macca gets his contracted extended to end of 2017! Proffessor and MattDougie committ Hari kari :D
Click to expand...

I hope yo are right
 
lachy said:
And if he is still coach in 2016?

Coaches who stand out in their first couple of years are about as common as those who don't.

Bomber Thompson won 7 games in his 4th year and was expected to be sacked in 2006, yet now if it was possible would be the one coach very few would not want as the senior coach at the doggies in 2015
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Lachy Thonpson won 14 in his 3rd year which saved him and there were many reasons why the poor results that year.

He proved he could coach the year before

Something Macca has not done as yet and in fact hasn't proven much at all other than he can't talk with the best if them

If he coach in 2016?? Only positive will be another low draft pick
 
We are as far from finals with Macca as coach as I am of winning powerball AND Kelly Brook swearing undying love for me.
 
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