Hearing Whispers

[loki04]

If the great Roos can't get anything out of Watts, what makes you think our development staff could?

Roos is famous for taking teams rejects and making them into good players.

List all these "rejects" he's turned into good players?

Remembering that a highly talented Nick Davis and a 80 goal a year FF in B.Hall aren't rejects...

 

[loki04]

I openly admit to not having seen him play in 2014 [even on TV as I've been working weekends], but I'm pretty sure I've never seen him play to a satisfactory standard in the AFL - particularly in regards to the contested aspects of the game.
If he were to come to Collingwood, I wouldn't be dismayed, but...

He has to be completely retrained and de-Melbournised mentally.

 

[Markfs]

Football manager Josh Mahoney said Melbourne would endeavour to secure a trade for Clark, who remains on its list until October 16, in a bid to receive some form of compensation in this year’s exchange period.

Mahoney said under the terms of his retirement from Melbourne in April, Clark cannot become a delisted free agent and go to a new home for nothing, unless he takes his chances in the national or preseason draft.

“He is still currently on our list and if he was to seek to go to another club it would require a trade,” Mahoney said.

 

[Vampire013]

My whisper is that the Collingwoood recruiting staff are going through this board to decide whether to pick up Watts.
They need the expert advice of some posters on here to assist them in their decision !

 

[Hardas]

My whisper is that the Collingwoood recruiting staff are going through this board to decide whether to pick up Watts.
They need the expert advice of some posters on here to assist them in their decision !

Shocked! I must start writing longer, more-detailed posts then.

 

[frizzle]

Dawes and Wellingham both attracted top 20 picks. Watts is a younger and better talent. I imagine he could do likewise.

Picks generally speaking are overvalued. It's a lottery. It's hoping you get the pick right. Watts is still worth a top 20 pick in my mind. Whether AFL clubs see it the same way is an unknown unless/until Watts does get dealt.

Melbourne are said to have largely everyone at the table for the right price. Given Watts was the number one overall selection my initial comments were based on Melbourne likely hoping for more than they are likely to attract - with clubs as a rule on the trade table wanting more than what the market suggests they could and as a result generally in the most part getting very few deals done unless motivated to do so.

So lets not then.
Pretty sure Hine wouldn't agree with you that picks are overvalued.

 

[Big Bryza]

Lumumba for Jones is the whisper i heard.

 

[Hardas]

Lumumba for Jones is the whisper i heard.

Straight up, BB?!?

 

[Knightmare]

So lets not then.
Pretty sure Hine wouldn't agree with you that picks are overvalued.

Remember with picks. They only take you so far. See Gold Coast and GWS. See Carlton and Melbourne before them. Not that Gold Coast and GWS are going to fail like that, but it's going to take longer than anticipated and we're currently seeing with Gold Coast's premiership in the first five years idea not coming close. They're the teams with the most first round selections on their lists and they've all failed to this point to rise into premiership relevance. You can have as many of those first round draft picks as you want and they're not winning you anything until you put a veteran group around them and a strong group of leaders within your team. It's a fundamental understanding league-wide other than possibly Hawthorn that AFL clubs wrongly fail to recognise and properly understand.

Anyone watch the NBA and how those teams operate? Teams who want to win shop their picks and young players for proven veterans and players who can actively make your team better. Look at the Cleveland Cavaliers moving their two number one overall picks from the last two drafts and a further future first round selection for an established player. Then in addition to that they add further veteran talent - Shawn Marion, James Jones, Mike Miller and they hope Ray Allen. It's an understanding teams in other sports get but still not the AFL. It's a system whereby 5-10 teams know they can contend and the rest of the league pussy foot around collecting picks and players with expiring contracts hoping some pick makes it and nothing comes of it. Perhaps in the AFL it is the fact that clubs see the AFL today as such a transition running game that they want young talent who can run, but regardless of this I still see veterans as far being more beneficial to winning. We saw it in our situation in 2007 and 2010 with those the years we had the most veterans on our list. We not only had successful seasons both years but we also in these two specific seasons if you look at who developed and at what rate the strongest improvements from our youth.

Right now Collingwood lack all of that and as a result picks are of limited usefulness in our situation. Doesn't mean we can't pick some really good guys out of the draft. It's just our ability to develop our players into the elite that from now will be limited. So any established players we can get right now in our situation would be greatly beneficial.

 

[MyManLynch]

Maybe they can. He most definitely on their list still though. They couldn't delist him officially until the season finished, and he informed them he was going to return to football before they did so.

They are 100% able to trade him.

Yes correct.
Players technically remain on the clubs list until October.
Although Dayle Garlett was released officially off Hawthorns list in April this year (with AFL permission) to enable him to play football in W.A.

 

[JOELY]

Lumumba for Jones is the whisper i heard.

Tell them to speak louder, you didn't hear them properly.

 

[Starcevich90]

You're hearing whispers?

Maybe you should seek medical attention.

Mitch fills a need, what does Watts do for us?

Scharenberg could well be a couple of years from making an impact, if he does come good. Maxwell is gone. None of our defenders can really use the footy. I think Watts in the third tall defender/backline distributor/interceptor role could be worth a try. If we're only giving up H, why not?

 

[Justlokan]

If the great Roos can't get anything out of Watts, what makes you think our development staff could?

Roos is famous for taking teams rejects and making them into good players.

except that Sydney had a good culture to shape up the rejects. The Dees culture needs total rebuild.

 

[Starcevich90]

Remember with picks. They only take you so far. See Gold Coast and GWS. See Carlton and Melbourne before them. Not that Gold Coast and GWS are going to fail like that, but it's going to take longer than anticipated and we're currently seeing with Gold Coast's premiership in the first five years idea not coming close. They're the teams with the most first round selections on their lists and they've all failed to this point to rise into premiership relevance. You can have as many of those first round draft picks as you want and they're not winning you anything until you put a veteran group around them and a strong group of leaders within your team. It's a fundamental understanding league-wide other than possibly Hawthorn that AFL clubs wrongly fail to recognise and properly understand.

Anyone watch the NBA and how those teams operate? Teams who want to win shop their picks and young players for proven veterans and players who can actively make your team better. Look at the Cleveland Cavaliers moving their two number one overall picks from the last two drafts and a further future first round selection for an established player. Then in addition to that they add further veteran talent - Shawn Marion, James Jones, Mike Miller and they hope Ray Allen. It's an understanding teams in other sports get but still not the AFL. It's a system whereby 5-10 teams know they can contend and the rest of the league pussy foot around collecting picks and players with expiring contracts hoping some pick makes it and nothing comes of it. Perhaps in the AFL it is the fact that clubs see the AFL today as such a transition running game that they want young talent who can run, but regardless of this I still see veterans as far being more beneficial to winning. We saw it in our situation in 2007 and 2010 with those the years we had the most veterans on our list. We not only had successful seasons both years but we also in these two specific seasons if you look at who developed and at what rate the strongest improvements from our youth.

Right now Collingwood lack all of that and as a result picks are of limited usefulness in our situation. Doesn't mean we can't pick some really good guys out of the draft. It's just our ability to develop our players into the elite that from now will be limited. So any established players we can get right now in our situation would be greatly beneficial.

Finally, finally, finally some sense amid this obsession with youth and high picks. Look at how much more quickly lesser rated talent develops at Hawthorn, compared to the cream going start-up clubs. This is why the loss of so many experienced players over the past three years will and has hurt us so much, regardless of their individual reasons for leaving.

 

[Reykjavik]

A rookie for a #1 draft pick?
Winners!
Unlike a lot I believe a club like the Pies could still make Watts into a player.
No, not a #1 player, but more than serviceable.
Skill don't evaporate, just needs the right environment to shine.

Please outline for me our extensive list of successful experiences in unlocking the inherent talent in players who have been in the AFL system for a few years with other clubs?

It's not one of our strengths. At best Jolly and Ball were at the level they reached with their previous clubs. Actually think thats gilding the lilly with Jolly at least. The rest are a decidely underwhelming lot.

I mean, we keep saying this sort of thing, oh yeah get them to the pies and we will find the spark where their previous club failed. Just dont see any evidence its real. Collingwood exceptionalism is a wonderfully warming feeling, but it's a myth.

 

[Knightmare]

Finally, finally, finally some sense amid this obsession with youth and high picks. Look at how much more quickly lesser rated talent develops at Hawthorn, compared to the cream going start-up clubs. This is why the loss of so many experienced players over the past three years will and has hurt us so much, regardless of their individual reasons for leaving.

I really have enjoyed what Hawthorn have done these past years.

They haven't even picked particularly well all that consistently but having met Al Clarkson last year which was a privilege and having spoken basketball and specifically his San Antonio Spurs who he follows because Roughead and a few others on that team support I know that Hawthorn have taken the list management learnings from outside into their own recruitment and we see it consistently with the proven players they take on with McEvoy (not that he has been given regular opportunity), Lake and Burgoyne then others they saw on other lists they liked in Sam Gibson, Gunston, Hale and Ceglar who they felt was let go of too early. Each year they have among the oldest of the team lists in the competition but year after year they keep injecting more talent and staying up. The veteran presence has in a big way helped with player development with the Luke Hodge's, Sam Mitchell's, Jordan Lewis' among others which have also contributed in the development of guys like Isaac Smith, Luke Breust, Jack Gunston among others who likely wouldn't be nearly as good elsewhere.

With Collingwood we have have the opposite situation whereby from our 2010/2011 grand final teams we have lost: Chris Tarrant, Andrew Krakouer, Nick Maxwell, Sharrod Wellingham, Ben Johnson, Alan Didak, Luke Ball, Chris Dawes, Darren Jolly, Dale Thomas, Leon Davis, Leigh Brown and Heritier Lumumba. That's a lot of talent lost and really good veteran talent with a number of excellent leaders amongst that group with not a whole lot of immediate help gained which hasn't helped our chances since 2011 of achieving a great deal of success with only Clinton Young and Quinten Lynch although the latter not as successful as anticipated the only serious attempts since to add established AFL talent with everyone else we've added just stopgaps.
No strong drafting, and we have drafted exceeding well in this time since 2010 can sufficiently replace that many quality players lost and we're seen it with our free fall from the top.

In our situation now if we can add Mitch Clark and Jeff Garlett. That's progress. They're two guys who would be steps in the right direction in adding some guys who are proven, fill list needs but also can help improve us which is what needs to be done actively each year to make progress.

With Cloke and Pendlebury both slowly nearing 30 we need all the help we can get because after they're both gone, while it's still possible, it's going to be a lot harder to win another premiership when they're both gone.

 

[domin8tors]

Have heard some whispers that the Mitch Clark - Lumumba trade is a bit of a smokescreen. The real trade will be Lumumba for Watts.

if we were going to take the gamble I'd take it on mitch Clarke. at his best he is a match winner and game changer where as Watts is just a bit part player.

 

[Dynamics]

None of our defenders can really use the footy.

Ben Reid, 2011 All Australian CHB, begs to differ.

I know what you're saying, but it's worth pointing out that a fit and functioning Clark is a good enough 2nd tall to allow Reid to play predominantly back.

 

[Markfs]

News hot off the wire is that Adelaide is having a serious look at Nathan Buckley. He is an ex-SA boy but far enough removed to be above all the SANFL rivalries.... word is that Eddie will appear to put up a fight but he will be shadow-boxing...

 

[Bay Pie]

Knightmare, I know you like your NBA and so do I but it really is a poor sport to choose to compare it to AFL. They have 5 players on the court at any one time and maybe use another 3/4 maximum, usually sparingly. If you can pick up 2/3 guns, you instantly become a contender. AFL has 18 players. In addition, I believe the NBA has free agency after 5 years? Players move far more frequently in American sports than AFL. They are all about the 'me'.

You will notice though, exactly what picks were used to obtain elite talent. If you want good players to trade in, you have to offer up something good in return.

It's interesting those that 'like' your posts are the same ones who **** can our mature talent recruiting. You need to spend big to get big.

 

[Markfs]

Shocked! I must start writing longer, more-detailed posts then.

He said the recruiting staff are looking for expert advice...

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare, I know you like your NBA and so do I but it really is a poor sport to choose to compare it to AFL. The have 5 players on the court at any one time an maybe use another 3/4 maximum, usually sparingly. If you can pick up 2/3 guns, you instantly become a contender. AFL has 18 players. In addition, I believe the NBA has free gency after 5 years? Players move far more frequently in American sports than AFL. They ae all about the 'me'.

You will notice though, exactly what picks were ued to obtai elite talent. If you want good players to trade in, you have to offer up something good in return.

It's interesting those that 'like' your posts are the same ones who **** can our mature talent recruiting. You need to spend big to get big.

You are right that the NBA is a star power game and that's why aggression in free agency in the AFL is less wise because AFL careers are generally shorter and they relatively don't have the same impact.

I also agree with your premise that you have to give up something good to get something good and it is something I consistently bring up in my posts regarding trade scenarios with fans thinking they can get eg. Jack Watts for Heritier Lumumba.

In saying that the concept of veterans helping you win still applies and that is the learning is transferable with similarly the value of rookies and early career players in the most part significantly higher than what their actual value to winning is if you are to look back at my earlier posts.

This year as an example Mitch Clark is not expected to cost a whole lot. Jeff Garlett if available, same story. They're examples of smart pickups as proven players at AFL level who are strong list fits but due to circumstance look potentially acquirable.

Our mature recruiting has been poor (and more specifically our recycled players) because they have been spot gaps. Not proven veteran talent. Veteran talent is available every year. Ryan O'Keeffe is looking for a new home. As a one year rental he would be someone who would be of greater usefulness than the Simon Buckley/Jordan Russell/Tony Armstrong who similarly might also be around for a year but won't be able to impart the same wisedom and teaching on the youth at the club.

Similarly with the players we are letting go. Maxwell obviously chose to retire but he would be terrific to have for a further season, particularly with Scharenberg out again. Luke Ball same story. His professionalism is second to none. With youth at the club. He would play a significant part in the development of those around him.

In 2010 there is this what I would class as a myth that it was our youth that won us the flag. We won on the day with a relatively young team with all the young players who broke through that year but the factor that is often overlooked is the number of veterans we have in reserve really mentoring the young guys and helping them achieve breakout seasons.

 

[wicksy]

Remember with picks. They only take you so far. See Gold Coast and GWS. See Carlton and Melbourne before them. Not that Gold Coast and GWS are going to fail like that, but it's going to take longer than anticipated and we're currently seeing with Gold Coast's premiership in the first five years idea not coming close. They're the teams with the most first round selections on their lists and they've all failed to this point to rise into premiership relevance. You can have as many of those first round draft picks as you want and they're not winning you anything until you put a veteran group around them and a strong group of leaders within your team. It's a fundamental understanding league-wide other than possibly Hawthorn that AFL clubs wrongly fail to recognise and properly understand.

Anyone watch the NBA and how those teams operate? Teams who want to win shop their picks and young players for proven veterans and players who can actively make your team better. Look at the Cleveland Cavaliers moving their two number one overall picks from the last two drafts and a further future first round selection for an established player. Then in addition to that they add further veteran talent - Shawn Marion, James Jones, Mike Miller and they hope Ray Allen. It's an understanding teams in other sports get but still not the AFL. It's a system whereby 5-10 teams know they can contend and the rest of the league pussy foot around collecting picks and players with expiring contracts hoping some pick makes it and nothing comes of it. Perhaps in the AFL it is the fact that clubs see the AFL today as such a transition running game that they want young talent who can run, but regardless of this I still see veterans as far being more beneficial to winning. We saw it in our situation in 2007 and 2010 with those the years we had the most veterans on our list. We not only had successful seasons both years but we also in these two specific seasons if you look at who developed and at what rate the strongest improvements from our youth.

Right now Collingwood lack all of that and as a result picks are of limited usefulness in our situation. Doesn't mean we can't pick some really good guys out of the draft. It's just our ability to develop our players into the elite that from now will be limited. So any established players we can get right now in our situation would be greatly beneficial.

While I see what you're saying, there are still teams like the Spurs and the Thunder who use their picks to build championship teams. The benefit of doing it this way is that is almost generates an air of loyalty within the team that other quick rebuilding teams don't get. Building a championship team comes with risks... Not all players will get along, ego's takeover and some don't buy into their new game plan.

Look at Brooklyn. Still the most expensive team in the league with arguably one of the best rosters (Before The Truth moved on anyway) and they can't even make an impact in an extremely weak conference.

Picks, in my opinion, are far better for a team in the long run. You watch Bennett and Wiggins dominate the league at the Wolves long after the likes or Marion, Allen, Miller and James are retired or playing baseball because they can't dominate the league like their ego requires them to.

 

[cakewalk_1]

I really have enjoyed what Hawthorn have done these past years.



With Collingwood we have have the opposite situation whereby from our 2010/2011 grand final teams we have lost: Chris Tarrant, Andrew Krakouer, Nick Maxwell, Sharrod Wellingham, Ben Johnson, Alan Didak, Luke Ball, Chris Dawes, Darren Jolly, Dale Thomas, Leon Davis, Leigh Brown and Heritier Lumumba. That's a lot of talent lost and really good veteran talent with a number of excellent leaders amongst that group with not a whole lot of immediate help gained which hasn't helped our chances since 2011 of achieving a great deal of success with only Clinton Young and Quinten Lynch although the latter not as successful as anticipated the only serious attempts since to add established AFL talent with everyone else we've added just stopgaps.

We also had Fraser, O"Bree, Lockyer, Medhurst, and I am sure there are a few others I can't think of who were playing in the seconds.

 

[jackcass]

Lumumba for Watts is a fair deal.
If we can then get Mitch Clark for a 3rd round pick and Jeff Garlett for a 4th round pick I think that is a successful trade period.

Watts and Garlett... wow... then all we'd need to do is find a couple of other soft unaccountable outside runners for picks 2 & 5 and we're home and hosed.