Non essendon supporters what if this was your club?

[JeffDunne]

The reality of the liberties we took with our salary cap are often overlooked in the light of the penalties. Three out of the four blokes we paid outside the cap werent going to leave anytime soon. Fraser Brown, SOS and Bradley were about as ironed on as players could get, if another club could have pried them away from us they'd have to have exceeded their own cap to do it.

Storm in a tea cup really.

Willful ignorance?

All three were no longer playing when you were forecast to be 25% over the cap.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

I'd just want my club officials and players to cooperate fully with any investigation and provide any documentation required. If anyone was found to be doing what we suspect has happened at Essendon, I'd want those responsible sacked. I don't care who they are. As posted before, my desire to deal with the drug problem in sport far over-rides any club loyalty I may feel.

 

[Chameleon75]

Not even close. Haven't you seen the Collingwood supporters asking Bucks to be sacked this year?

difference is the clubs survival isn't at stake, there hasn't been an appeal by the club to stick together, there hasn't been a reaching out to media contacts to run a pr campaign, there hasn't been the appointment of spin doctors to sell false hope, there hasn't been the seduction of solidarity that galvanising brings, of being part of a struggle.

Entire nations are seduced by propaganda in their march to war, you don't think the joffas (quite a lot of them at all clubs) can't be lead by the nose, particularly when you appeal to their long held biases.

 

[Crawb]

A cleanout would be on for sure. This kind of stuff would simply be unacceptable. Certainly hope our fans wouldn't carry on like Essendon fans have - there have been some who have been utterly disgusting and deserve to lose their club quite frankly.

 

[DonsRule]

I suspect just about everyone would react in precisely the same way Essendon supporters have reacted - hope and support their club until it was actually proven doping occurred

Which hasn't happened yet with Essendon

Like a poster above said, it's easy to be high and mighty when it's only a hypothetical

I'd also add there's no "Essendon gene". You don't support Essendon because you're a particular type of person with particular homogenous traits. I reckon a lot if people ITT are kidding themselves

We got lots of dodgy lawyers keeping our hopes up.

 

[Turkey Tom]

I think it is impossible to say until it happens, BUT if the club showed strong leadership and were open and honest (admitting any mistakes) that is all we as supporters can ask for.

Essendon did start to go down this path - ie Ziggy's report, but things seemed to get derailed once Evans was moved on.

 

[invinciBlues]

Willful ignorance?

All three were no longer playing when you were forecast to be 25% over the cap.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

Silvagni and Brown stopped playing before the kerfuffle happened and Bradley, well, he had played 375 come the end of 2002. His retirement didnt exactly come as a surprise.

Thats cool though, you keep telling everyone stories about the horrible Carlton boogie men and rewriting history in the process to suit your agenda

 

[TigerTime3]

There's no way I'd be like many (but not all) Essendon supporters - I would've used my brain to discern between PR spin, lies, and the facts.

My loyalty would've given them benefit of the doubt for about the first month. Beyond that, too many awful facts reached a tipping point - they claimed nobody knows what drugs where repeatedly injected into the player's bodies. Either nobody knows or they are covering up a doping program. Both are not defendable.

Supporting this goes beyond the warm glowing realms of supporter "loyalty".

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Apologies for the long post but I wrote something about this on the Saints thread about the drug scandal; in particular why Essendon was pretty much the only club that would have reacted in the way they have. Thought I'd copy it over here as it is relevant to this thread:

Let’s start from the beginning. Essendon are a very, very powerful club with connections all the way to the top in politics, business and media in this country. I feel this is very important to mention first as this is the reason that this case has appeared more complicated than it really is: the only reason it seems like a complicated case is because they have people literally on their payroll or who have connections to the club who are using their influence to muddy the waters at ever single turn through their respective roles in the media or wherever and also that Essendon kept no records on what they did (this should in itself be even more reason that we all know they are guilty but it has been spun into something that throws doubt on whether anything illegal happened: great work by the PR spinners on this but it beggars believe that people believe this as being a positive for the club).

We are also dealing with a unique club in Essendon, their fan culture, and the main man at the centre of it all: James Hird. The way all the above intersect with each other is another major factor in the way this has all played out.

Melbourne is such a unique city. It supports sport like no other but in a unique way: there are so many clubs people tend to choose when they are young based on who was winning at the time compared to other places I have lived where you pretty much support the club your family supports and/or are in your area. Essendon therefore have a unique culture of glory-hunting adult fans due to their success in the early eighties, mid nineties and 2000. What this has meant is that they have regularly attracted people to them who like supporting winners. They associate with a club because it wins and they feel it rubs off on them. This breeds a unique, arrogant supporter base like no other. And James Hird is their poster boy. He encapsulates everything that makes these glory hunting fans love their club. He is a winner. He delivered the success they craved as supporters to validate their lives and they will never forget it. That is why they are willing to forgive him for overseeing this mess. They are a special breed Essendon supporters, you can learn a lot about the psychology of groups by looking at the unbelievable way they have responded to this crisis, and very little of it is good.

We have more than enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Essendon and Hird in this case, and we all know that circumstantial evidence is all we need in cases like this dealing with criminals like Dank, Charters and Hird. ASADA know this. The AFL, pandering to this powerful club have tried to help them out but it has not gone well: they are dealing with an egomaniac in Hird that will simply refuse and deny to take responsibility until the bitter end. A poster on the main board TerryWallet summed it up better than I could here regarding the AFL and their deals with Essendon and the way Hird manipulated the situation:

"This was all extensively commented on and argued over a year ago.

It's funny, it was "us foamers" who were banging on repeatedly about Vlad and the Commission's corruption all during the early months as it was clear that he, and they, were attempting to cover up for EFC doping their players.

At the time , EFC HTB posters were happy to have Vlad, Kelty etc on their side.

Then when the AFL(on behalf of ASADA) demanded Hird take his deserved blame to protect the players, Hird took on Vlad and pushed everyone under the bus.

In defense of The Almighty Goldenballs, EFC fans then came to the ridiculous conclusion that Vlad was against Essendon. When in fact he was their biggest protector and was doing his utmost to get a team full of doped players out of sanctions.

Amazed me at the time. Still amazes me now.”

Make no mistake, this is a unique case. It could only happen in Melbourne and only with the Essendon football club. From reading sources ever since the first press conference where Essendon ADMITTED they needed help from ASADA and that they have lost control of the situation and they even had an internal report saying that they had lost control, we have been putting up with an unprecedented amount of propaganda in the media trying to make this case not so clear cut. Luckily we have brave journalists like Baker and Mckenzie that have shone a light on what happened. We also have ASADA continuing to go after Essendon based on the evidence they have in the face of enormous pressure.

This case is very important for the future of sport in Australia. Essendon and the players need to be punished severely for what has happened. Justice needs to prevail. There is more than enough evidence and ASADA have done well to compile it all. The players aren’t innocent in this, they were part of a “whatever it takes” sporting club run by someone who thought they were above the law, a “winner” in Hird. Like most people like him, he just thought he would never be caught. And his loyal followers and helpers in the media, politics etc refuse to see the truth of what happened as it will say just as much about themselves and their nature as it does about Hird.

 

[Reppie]

Apologies for the long post but I wrote something about this on the Saints thread about the drug scandal; in particular why Essendon was pretty much the only club that would have reacted in the way they have. Thought I'd copy it over here as it is relevant to this thread:

Let’s start from the beginning. Essendon are a very, very powerful club with connections all the way to the top in politics, business and media in this country. I feel this is very important to mention first as this is the reason that this case has appeared more complicated than it really is: the only reason it seems like a complicated case is because they have people literally on their payroll or who have connections to the club who are using their influence to muddy the waters at ever single turn through their respective roles in the media or wherever and also that Essendon kept no records on what they did (this should in itself be even more reason that we all know they are guilty but it has been spun into something that throws doubt on whether anything illegal happened: great work by the PR spinners on this but it beggars believe that people believe this as being a positive for the club).

We are also dealing with a unique club in Essendon, their fan culture, and the main man at the centre of it all: James Hird. The way all the above intersect with each other is another major factor in the way this has all played out.

Melbourne is such a unique city. It supports sport like no other but in a unique way: there are so many clubs people tend to choose when they are young based on who was winning at the time compared to other places I have lived where you pretty much support the club your family supports and/or are in your area. Essendon therefore have a unique culture of glory-hunting adult fans due to their success in the early eighties, mid nineties and 2000. What this has meant is that they have regularly attracted people to them who like supporting winners. They associate with a club because it wins and they feel it rubs off on them. This breeds a unique, arrogant supporter base like no other. And James Hird is their poster boy. He encapsulates everything that makes these glory hunting fans love their club. He is a winner. He delivered the success they craved as supporters to validate their lives and they will never forget it. That is why they are willing to forgive him for overseeing this mess. They are a special breed Essendon supporters, you can learn a lot about the psychology of groups by looking at the unbelievable way they have responded to this crisis, and very little of it is good.

We have more than enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Essendon and Hird in this case, and we all know that circumstantial evidence is all we need in cases like this dealing with criminals like Dank, Charters and Hird. ASADA know this. The AFL, pandering to this powerful club have tried to help them out but it has not gone well: they are dealing with an egomaniac in Hird that will simply refuse and deny to take responsibility until the bitter end. A poster on the main board TerryWallet summed it up better than I could here regarding the AFL and their deals with Essendon and the way Hird manipulated the situation:

"This was all extensively commented on and argued over a year ago.

It's funny, it was "us foamers" who were banging on repeatedly about Vlad and the Commission's corruption all during the early months as it was clear that he, and they, were attempting to cover up for EFC doping their players.

At the time , EFC HTB posters were happy to have Vlad, Kelty etc on their side.

Then when the AFL(on behalf of ASADA) demanded Hird take his deserved blame to protect the players, Hird took on Vlad and pushed everyone under the bus.

In defense of The Almighty Goldenballs, EFC fans then came to the ridiculous conclusion that Vlad was against Essendon. When in fact he was their biggest protector and was doing his utmost to get a team full of doped players out of sanctions.

Amazed me at the time. Still amazes me now.”

Make no mistake, this is a unique case. It could only happen in Melbourne and only with the Essendon football club. From reading sources ever since the first press conference where Essendon ADMITTED they needed help from ASADA and that they have lost control of the situation and they even had an internal report saying that they had lost control, we have been putting up with an unprecedented amount of propaganda in the media trying to make this case not so clear cut. Luckily we have brave journalists like Baker and Mckenzie that have shone a light on what happened. We also have ASADA continuing to go after Essendon based on the evidence they have in the face of enormous pressure.

This case is very important for the future of sport in Australia. Essendon and the players need to be punished severely for what has happened. Justice needs to prevail. There is more than enough evidence and ASADA have done well to compile it all. The players aren’t innocent in this, they were part of a “whatever it takes” sporting club run by someone who thought they were above the law, a “winner” in Hird. Like most people like him, he just thought he would never be caught. And his loyal followers and helpers in the media, politics etc refuse to see the truth of what happened as it will say just as much about themselves and their nature as it does about Hird.

Very well said. Cannot pick a fault in that.

 

[wheels08]

Apologies for the long post but I wrote something about this on the Saints thread about the drug scandal; in particular why Essendon was pretty much the only club that would have reacted in the way they have. Thought I'd copy it over here as it is relevant to this thread:

Let’s start from the beginning. Essendon are a very, very powerful club with connections all the way to the top in politics, business and media in this country. I feel this is very important to mention first as this is the reason that this case has appeared more complicated than it really is: the only reason it seems like a complicated case is because they have people literally on their payroll or who have connections to the club who are using their influence to muddy the waters at ever single turn through their respective roles in the media or wherever and also that Essendon kept no records on what they did (this should in itself be even more reason that we all know they are guilty but it has been spun into something that throws doubt on whether anything illegal happened: great work by the PR spinners on this but it beggars believe that people believe this as being a positive for the club).

We are also dealing with a unique club in Essendon, their fan culture, and the main man at the centre of it all: James Hird. The way all the above intersect with each other is another major factor in the way this has all played out.

Melbourne is such a unique city. It supports sport like no other but in a unique way: there are so many clubs people tend to choose when they are young based on who was winning at the time compared to other places I have lived where you pretty much support the club your family supports and/or are in your area. Essendon therefore have a unique culture of glory-hunting adult fans due to their success in the early eighties, mid nineties and 2000. What this has meant is that they have regularly attracted people to them who like supporting winners. They associate with a club because it wins and they feel it rubs off on them. This breeds a unique, arrogant supporter base like no other. And James Hird is their poster boy. He encapsulates everything that makes these glory hunting fans love their club. He is a winner. He delivered the success they craved as supporters to validate their lives and they will never forget it. That is why they are willing to forgive him for overseeing this mess. They are a special breed Essendon supporters, you can learn a lot about the psychology of groups by looking at the unbelievable way they have responded to this crisis, and very little of it is good.

We have more than enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Essendon and Hird in this case, and we all know that circumstantial evidence is all we need in cases like this dealing with criminals like Dank, Charters and Hird. ASADA know this. The AFL, pandering to this powerful club have tried to help them out but it has not gone well: they are dealing with an egomaniac in Hird that will simply refuse and deny to take responsibility until the bitter end. A poster on the main board TerryWallet summed it up better than I could here regarding the AFL and their deals with Essendon and the way Hird manipulated the situation:

"This was all extensively commented on and argued over a year ago.

It's funny, it was "us foamers" who were banging on repeatedly about Vlad and the Commission's corruption all during the early months as it was clear that he, and they, were attempting to cover up for EFC doping their players.

At the time , EFC HTB posters were happy to have Vlad, Kelty etc on their side.

Then when the AFL(on behalf of ASADA) demanded Hird take his deserved blame to protect the players, Hird took on Vlad and pushed everyone under the bus.

In defense of The Almighty Goldenballs, EFC fans then came to the ridiculous conclusion that Vlad was against Essendon. When in fact he was their biggest protector and was doing his utmost to get a team full of doped players out of sanctions.

Amazed me at the time. Still amazes me now.”

Make no mistake, this is a unique case. It could only happen in Melbourne and only with the Essendon football club. From reading sources ever since the first press conference where Essendon ADMITTED they needed help from ASADA and that they have lost control of the situation and they even had an internal report saying that they had lost control, we have been putting up with an unprecedented amount of propaganda in the media trying to make this case not so clear cut. Luckily we have brave journalists like Baker and Mckenzie that have shone a light on what happened. We also have ASADA continuing to go after Essendon based on the evidence they have in the face of enormous pressure.

This case is very important for the future of sport in Australia. Essendon and the players need to be punished severely for what has happened. Justice needs to prevail. There is more than enough evidence and ASADA have done well to compile it all. The players aren’t innocent in this, they were part of a “whatever it takes” sporting club run by someone who thought they were above the law, a “winner” in Hird. Like most people like him, he just thought he would never be caught. And his loyal followers and helpers in the media, politics etc refuse to see the truth of what happened as it will say just as much about themselves and their nature as it does about Hird.

+1

 

[Monkey King]

No you didn't.

Elliott was tossed out far too late (had he gone earlier I reckon you'd have been spared). In fact the ASIC were about to disqualify him from being a company director so it was anything but "post haste". Other salary cap cheats like Kernahan were kept and worshiped.

Plenty of Carlton supporters still deny the club did anything wrong, or at best were doing what "everyone else was doing". Plenty still think the club was a victim.

Sound familiar?

Yes, we did.

Elliott and the three other directors implicated in the salary cap scandal were all tossed out at the end of year election, the very first chance supporters had to do so after the scandal broke, and before we even had our penalties handed down. In contrast to Essendon, this is about as post-haste as it gets; particularly as Elliott, like Little, was trumpeting the potential of pursuing any penalty through the courts if he deemed it too severe.

You say "other salary cap cheats like Kernahan ..." can I have your evidence please? Seriously, this is the first time I've ever heard about it, so given it's pretty central to your argument, I'd like to see the basis for this accusation.

And yes, Carlton supporters were victims. Certain people at the club charged with responsibility did the wrong thing and in the end, the wrong people, the supporters and future players, got the biggest whack of all, while these others walked away with nothing more than a tarnished reputation. As for doing what other clubs were doing, you need only to cast an eye over the history of salary cap penalties to appreciate the nature of those comments. In your "sound familiar" comparison to Essendon, cast your eye over the other clubs whose programs attracted ASADA Show Cause Notices ... oh wait

Initially I felt sympathy for Dons supporters that they're going to have to suffer a similar fate as Carlton supporters over the actions of a few culpable at their club, however my sympathy has waned after months of watching the supporter reaction and support for those who caused the shitstorm in the first place. It's got to the point that seizing control of their club back from those currently taking control has become imperative. If they don't take that course, then the supporters are no more victims than the perpetrators.

 

[compact72]

I would really love to hear other presidents opinion in this, unfortunately we won't hear any of it, apart from slip the word here and there

Oh how sour would they all be

 

[JeffDunne]

You say "other salary cap cheats like Kernahan ..." can I have your evidence please? Seriously, this is the first time I've ever heard about it, so given it's pretty central to your argument, I'd like to see the basis for this accusation.

He was a director & in Elliott's right pocket. Do I really need to post an essay to connect the dots for you?

Besides, just look at how SOS in particular was treated. He fessed up and told the truth & hasn't been back at the club since due to the nastiness of the backlash he coped from club & members.

Conversely Fraser Brown was idolised by members for refusing to speak to the AFL.

To suggest Carlton supporters accepted the punishment for obvious cheating on the chin is a complete work of fiction.

 

[CatFan79]

I'd blame Caro

 

[Ancient Tiger]

If I had the same info on my club that I had on Essendon, I would have demanded that those in power that made the decisions that caused the club to be in that situation to be asked to leave immediately.
Without that information, I would like to see the evidence before hanging everybody.

The truth of the matter is I can't think of any coach that could have survived till now in any other team if they were placed in the same situation. Anyone with a hint of respect for their club would have got up and resigned by now. They would not even have to admit guilt. All they would need to say is that ultimately, the mess this has caused their club to be in will continue to destroy the club and as such they would offer their resignation in an effort to defuse the situation or at least show that they were in part responsible for getting their team into this terrible position.

 

[dmc333]

I gotta call bullshit that there would be hugely different reactions at other clubs versus how Essendon fans have reacted.

You've only got to see the 17 team head-in-sand, reactionary, attack the messenger or blindly defend the player and club responses when there's the slightest criticism (or even perceived criticism) or indiscretion by player or club.

I don't know how long it would last, but I'm certain it would be very similar behaviour. Go to any team board here and there's posters you'd swear would give players and coaches wristies if they could. You've got people who think some players and coaches can do no wrong and should be offered blind faith. And these are the fans who actually mix in with others on a league wide forum.

In this instance I'm guessing the status of Hird has only made it worse.

 

[TheSunGod]

If this happened to my club I'd be taking lots of notes... LOTS OF NOTES!!!

 

[basashi]

If it was my club I would want those responsible to pay a fair but reasonable price:


1 - Any player who was administered a banned substance - 2 year ban (nonsensical to suggest any flexibility on that)
2 - Any coach, trainer, fitness guru, manager, official who knew and consented - Life ban
3 - Any coach, trainer, fitness guru, manager, official who didn't know but who bears some organisational responsibility and did not implement adequate controls to discharge that duty - 5 to 10 year bans.
4 - Serving board members during the event... at least 5 year bans from AFL involvement.

Other than that, you need to ensure that
1 - any individual award given to a player who has been administered a banned substance is forfeited

 

[vjknight]

It's an impossible question to ask. When your club is attacked as Essendon has been, you forget sense and instantly defend. Your football club is different to anything else, you defend it with everything.

And what astounded me so much was the absolute rejection of anyone from other clubs unless they told you what you wanted to hear. Whether it was the initial evidence filtering thru, or the interim report, or the agm, or the show causes, dons fans saw everyone as the enemy of EFC, when in fact many are trying to save your club.
And only now are a small percentage starting to realize the damage that has occurred and realizing there's more damage to come.
We shall see what version of EFC we have going forward.

 

[deltablues]

If I had the same info on my club that I had on Essendon, I would have demanded that those in power that made the decisions that caused the club to be in that situation to be asked to leave immediately.
Without that information, I would like to see the evidence before hanging everybody.

The truth of the matter is I can't think of any coach that could have survived till now in any other team if they were placed in the same situation. Anyone with a hint of respect for their club would have got up and resigned by now. They would not even have to admit guilt. All they would need to say is that ultimately, the mess this has caused their club to be in will continue to destroy the club and as such they would offer their resignation in an effort to defuse the situation or at least show that they were in part responsible for getting their team into this terrible position.

,
Yes, I would agree with you, as a club member. But Essendon have taken the legal route and to be fair to them, they might not have had a choice re settling it sans legal advice as there are some huge legal liability and PI insurance issues in play here: Essendon and its Directors are bound to take and act on legal advice in those circumstances. Also, some of the relevant Oz legislative provisions raise criminal law issues, not just civil risk. I mean, we are talking drugs, not salary caps/crappy game day decisions etc. It is strictly legal, where everything is under the forensic pump.

 

[ManWithNoName]

And what astounded me so much was the absolute rejection of anyone from other clubs unless they told you what you wanted to hear. Whether it was the initial evidence filtering thru, or the interim report, or the agm, or the show causes, dons fans saw everyone as the enemy of EFC, when in fact many are trying to save your club.
And only now are a small percentage starting to realize the damage that has occurred and realizing there's more damage to come.
We shall see what version of EFC we have going forward.

What astounded me was the claims that you'd all turn on your club and legends of the club because Damian Barrett and Caroline Wilson said something.

 

[vjknight]

We got lots of dodgy lawyers keeping our hopes up.

And the funny thing......no one knows if your are being honest or trolling, such is the level of mistrust.

Footy fans have lost faith in, and sympathy for, essendon and its supporters. You will trouble earning it back.

 

[vjknight]

What astounded me was the claims that you'd all turn on your club and legends of the club because Damian Barrett and Caroline Wilson said something.

This is not about the media. Never has been. Because of your total contempt for all other footy fans, we are all seen as gullible fools unable to draw own own conclusions. Sure there's plenty out there who are stupid enough to accept everything uttered, but plenty more do not. These later people do however pick the pieces of information that are feasible and file them away, awaiting further references.......and they just kept coming.

The sooner you treat opposition fans with a ounce of respect and acknowledge those of us with a love of footy that is stronger than the love of club, you might be surprised what you find.

 

[invinciBlues]

He was a director & in Elliott's right pocket. Do I really need to post an essay to connect the dots for you?

Besides, just look at how SOS in particular was treated. He fessed up and told the truth & hasn't been back at the club since due to the nastiness of the backlash he coped from club & members.

Conversely Fraser Brown was idolised by members for refusing to speak to the AFL.

To suggest Carlton supporters accepted the punishment for obvious cheating on the chin is a complete work of fiction.

Jeff, you're not going to find a single Carlton supporter that will say "We didnt cheat the cap". We did, we know we did. Blind Freddy knows we did. The only point we raise is that Ron Evans was one of the most corrupt son of a bitch going around who brushed asided Essendon's expenditure to jameshird.com and matthewlloyd.com in 2000 whilst giving a severe whack to us when we were on our knees having collected our first wooden spoon ever and gave us no option, absolutely no ******* option to rebuild.

We werent even allowed to trade back into the draft. I was stunned at the slap on the wrist the Essendon copped for this saga while they were labelled "the most severe in AFL history". Adelaide supporters too, couldnt believe how lightly they got off compared to them.

And this is the point Jeff, we, both us Carlton supporters and Adelaide supporters admit our respective clubs played fast and loose. We have come to terms of our punishments, and sure, it may have taken some supporters longer to do so, but we have.

Compare this to the seemingly majority of Essendon's fan base orchestrated by those idiots over at Bomberblitz who cheer on as Hird and Little shout "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead! #standbyhird #backourboys #proveitasada".