Non essendon supporters what if this was your club?

[mediumsizered]

He was a director & in Elliott's right pocket. Do I really need to post an essay to connect the dots for you?

Besides, just look at how SOS in particular was treated. He fessed up and told the truth & hasn't been back at the club since due to the nastiness of the backlash he coped from club & members.

Conversely Fraser Brown was idolised by members for refusing to speak to the AFL.

To suggest Carlton supporters accepted the punishment for obvious cheating on the chin is a complete work of fiction.

Get over it Jeff. It was more than a decade ago & our club copped the punishment. Your bitterness has not subsided in the 9 years I have been on BF. You should seek professional help to assist in letting this go.

FWIW, SOS was part of the ticket which deposed Elliott & Co. The very ticket which Carlton Football Club members voted for.

Edit: I'm pretty certain it was SOS & his 3 boys I saw at Visy Park during a pre-season game earlier this season, & the Jo Silvagni who is part of the Women of Carlton, is the same Jo Silvagni who is married to the aforementioned SOS.

 

[Percel]

DonsRule is Paul Little

 

[The Sultan]

I'm glad I created this thread has been some of the better discussion (ie minimal trolling) re the whole debacle so far....

 

[DonsRule]

DonsRule is Paul Little

Indeed I am, Ben McD.

 

[TerryWallet]

Get over it Jeff. It was more than a decade ago & our club copped the punishment. Your bitterness has not subsided in the 9 years I have been on BF. You should seek professional help to assist in letting this go.

FWIW, SOS was part of the ticket which deposed Elliott & Co. The very ticket which Carlton Football Club members voted for.

On behalf of the new respectful, sensitive Carlton, and as a show of goodwill to all bedraggled Sainters like Jeff, i have put off updating my sig which i have had since i joined.

Even when i joined back in 08, there was never any doubt about the number that would need updating first

 

[mikeythemoocow]

Jo Silvagni who is part of the Women of Carlton, is the same Jo Silvagni who is married to the aforementioned SOS.

Both SOS and Jo were at a Carlton function at Raheen in July. FWIW Jo is stunning.

 

[Blues_1864]

As an aside, Carlton fans waged a mighty defense of Pratt despite the fact he is Australia's biggest corporate criminal. I think it's a bit rude for Carlton fans to be claiming some sort of moral ascendancy over bomber supporters.

Aw, come on, Carlton knew exactly what was in the brown paper bags, and so did the relevant players. Had Essendon exercised similar diligence with their syringes, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So yes indeed, I certainly have taken the moral high ground (never thought I'd get the opportunity), and I am enjoying the view .

 

[Percel]

Indeed I am, Ben McD.

See you in the fight chamber

 

[Monkey King]

Elliot would have been tossed out anyway even if he hadn't been caught being such a cheat, at least according to BF's own contemporary polling on the Carlton board. (Not a huge sample mind you)

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/should-elliott-resign-be-sacked.33420/

A sample of 15 supporters, 5 of whom wouldn't have voted him out ... compelling

You're talking about a poll result in which The Sheik comprised 10% of the vote

As an aside, Carlton fans waged a mighty defense of Pratt despite the fact he is Australia's biggest corporate criminal.

Stopped reading right here. Pratt didn't even commit a crime. Doubtless this mighty defense was merely people just trying to set straight your hysterically false and aggradised version of "the facts".

 

[The Sultan]

Both SOS and Jo were at a Carlton function at Raheen in July. FWIW Jo is stunning.

Though as a footballer wife her note taking ability is sub par, and you wouldn't throw her in as long shot in the last leg of your quaddie.

 

[Monkey King]

He was a director & in Elliott's right pocket. Do I really need to post an essay to connect the dots for you?

Right. So the basis for your accusation is "join the dots". In others words, you're full of it.

Besides, just look at how SOS in particular was treated. He fessed up and told the truth & hasn't been back at the club since due to the nastiness of the backlash he coped from club & members.

Conversely Fraser Brown was idolised by members for refusing to speak to the AFL.

To suggest Carlton supporters accepted the punishment for obvious cheating on the chin is a complete work of fiction.

If we didn't cop it and move on, what did we do? Did we demand legal injunctions? Did we push for court mandated compensation? You seem to think we should have been jumping for joy or something. No. We were pissed off and disappointed, with both the AFL's heavy handedness and with those who led the club into this situation; but we accepted the penalties, with no small amount of displeasure and bitterness, and moved on, having removed from office those who orchestrated the affair. And I've got to say, Carlton fans moved on more than most other supporter groups did, with people like yourself continuing to bang on about it for years.

You say we "idolised" Brown, I say you're prone to exaggeration and beat up when it suits your cause. But yes, we appreciated his stoicism. Even more so when SOS and Bradley fronted up only for Evans to use these unpaid "payments" as further fodder to deliver a fierce penalty. You say SOS hasn't been back to the club, again, you are wrong. As MSR pointed out, he was actually part of the ticket that ousted Elliott and he held a board position for a year following that. He hasn't taken a role up at the club since, but he has been back and his family are regulars at Princes Park. You say supporters turned on SOS, but that's crap; we love the bloke. I know it troubles you, but could you please try to base something on the facts for once please Jeff?

Overall, while unhappy with all that went down, including the penalties, Carlton the club and supporters, did their best to clean up the mess, remove those responsible and move on with it. Your "sound familiar" comments insinuate our reaction parallels somewhat with Essendon's, in which case, you've lost the plot completely.

 

[VDS66]

Regardless of what was injected, if it were my club...

I'd want the coach and everyone responsible to resign en masse.

Hird should do the same, if for no other reason than to allow his club to heal and move on.

I don't blame supporters for sticking by their man, but look at the damage it is causing.

But it's not about us...

It's about the custodians of our clubs. They have a duty of care first and foremost to the players, which Essendon has failed IMO.

From the outside, we see a massive ego in Hird who appears to believe that he is not only bigger than the club, but also bigger than the game itself. A man hell bent and ready to sell his soul to try and win a flag.

If everything was above board, why were records destroyed? Why doesn't Dank come forward and answer questions... if he has nothing to hide.

Sorry guys, but that's how it looks from the outside.

And I would demand that Watson hand back the Brownlow.

 

[Monkey King]

There's some on here that still deny it or don't accept the club should have been punished.

Find me one. I challenge you to. No more "join the dots". Front up and account for you claims.

You couldn't rebuild because of your own mismanagement - an old list with players being paid well over what anyone else would pay.

I'm amazed you actually believe this crap. There is no doubt the clubs mismanagement put us in a terrible position and was a massive contributor to rubbish state of our list for the most part of the 2000's, but to claim that those penalties didn't stifle the rebuilding of the club is idiocy, plain and simple.

 

[Cuzdup]

Order a truckload of manure, and demand a cleanout, if it went along the line of this situation, I would stop following the code

This, completely this. Iv lost a lot of interest in the AFL since all this started, if it were my team and a complete cleanout and responsibility accepted id stop following the AFL.

Iv gone from watching 3 or 4 games every weekend to watching just WCE games.

 

[Andronicus]

Regardless of what was injected, if it were my club...

I'd want the coach and everyone responsible to resign en masse.

Hird should do the same, if for no other reason than to allow his club to heal and move on.

I don't blame supporters for sticking by their man, but look at the damage it is causing.

But it's not about us...

It's about the custodians of our clubs. They have a duty of care first and foremost to the players, which Essendon has failed IMO.

From the outside, we see a massive ego in Hird who appears to believe that he is not only bigger than the club, but also bigger than the game itself. A man hell bent and ready to sell his soul to try and win a flag.

If everything was above board, why were records destroyed? Why doesn't Dank come forward and answer questions... if he has nothing to hide.

Sorry guys, but that's how it looks from the outside.

And I would demand that Watson hand back the Brownlow.

This is the problem. Regardless what was injected? What if they knew it was all completely legal?

It's a hypothetical, but very easy for people to sit on a high horse here.

For all the strong opinions, would you not want proof before you threw all you believed and followed with your club out the door?

If ASADA have proof enough to get a conviction, then it will hurt me to no end, but yes, bans should be given out and anyone with anything to do with it should be cleaned out.

So far ASADA have not been able to come up with proof. If they had, then surely it would have been wrapped up by now. Lets not pretend there haven't been other clubs that have injected something. VDS66 will have your clubs gutted if they have had as much as a flu shot though.

 

[FootyGeek]

Find me one.

Sad to say but SurreyBlue is one.

Crazy fringe yes. But one.

 

[Forever North]

Well in this day and age of AFL clubs recording how many hours of 'quality' sleep players get each night, what they eat/drink, how many times they go to the toilet, how many muck around kicks at goal they have b4 training, how often they have sex, who they hang out with at the mall etc etc etc I would be burning the place down at the complete bullshit lies and excuses they were trying to convince me with of how they have 'no records' of what supposed 'legal supplements' were given and at what dosages. Treating fans like complete f******* is simply the ultimate insult.

 

[Monkey King]

Sad to say but SurreyBlue is one.

Crazy fringe yes. But one.

Fair enough. Given you've tagged him, I hope he fronts up to give his point of view so I can see it for myself.

 

[FootyGeek]

Can I just say a huge respect for pazza who has taken the very serious decision to begin to question the mandate against what the majority of Essendon supporters put forth on another forum.

I will not quote it or refer to it exactly.

But to stand up to the mob for what you feel is the right thing to do is brave. Very brave considering the strength of opinion the other way.

 

[mehow2g]

If it was my club I wouldnt be surprised, I think you gotto be pretty naive to think it's just Essendon and I'm not talking 1 or 2 other clubs probably most if not all clubs were on PED's at some point not exactly cheating I think AFL created a culture where they just turn a blind eye to it and if it goes public they will fix it for them, the reason why we are in this position is because an outside governing body has been involved.

Make no mistake if ASADA did not exist we wouldnt of even heard about this.

The silence of clubs, players and coaches is pretty telling if I was a clean club I would be outraged to be playing Essendon however they are not.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

What did Carlton supporters do with the salary cap saga. We threw out everyone involved post haste. Took our vicious punishment from Evans and moved on. Essendon supporters however seem to have a different moral/ethical outlook

It must be an odd feeling for carlton to hold the moral high ground.

For me, I'd simply want to know the truth. Though it doesn't matter at our club because we can't exactly vote out the board anyway

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I'd be like most Bombers were early, and want to wait to know more.

If it then came to light that Clarkson once worked closely with a steroid abuser, and this same person was coincidentally involved in the supply chain of the current Hawks then it would make me wonder a little, but I'd probably make some sort of excuse for it in my head.

If I then learnt that this guy was well known for helping players dodge drug tests, then I'd worry a bit more about why he was involved with Clarkson's sport scientist and what he was supplying.

If I then read texts between Clarkson and his sports scientist implicating other teams for using HGH, then I'd have to try and contemplate how they intended to combat these players on HGH if he wasn't going to use it on his own players, or utilise the 'skills' of the drug trafficking steroid abuser.
Texts like "they're not as good us in that area" in regard to the amount of work Clarkson had his sport scientist doing with injections and drugs would ring alarm bells as too how much he was involved.

Once I'd read that Clarkson had bypassed the club doctor and had him silenced so that the hundreds of injections could continue, I'd come to the conclusion that something was not right, and that Clarkson was clearly in the wrong for bypassing the duty of care he had for his players.

If it came to be that the sports scientist in question openly told a journo that he gave the players a prohibited drug only to be told it was indeed prohibited I'd think it was a dead give away that this clown screwed up completely.

As soon as I learnt that Clarkson was self injecting substances, I'd add it to the long list of coincidences and draw the conclusion that this drug scenario wasn't thrust upon him without knowledge or consent and that he was a party to it all by his own actions.

If I then had it confirmed that Clarkson was encouraging the sports scientist to do as he pleased while stonewalling the doctor while also telling the players whenever he was queried that all the drugs they were injected with were ok I'd have no choice but to come to terms with his involvement and I'd want him gone for his level of involvement and failure to manage the players.

If Clarkson then refused to stand down, carried it all through the courts for two years and wouldn't admit to being a key player behind the entire cluster* then I'd be joining in with a chorus of Hawk supporters who would want him sacked at the very least - and most likely run out of town.

I'd then be thankful that my club wasn't dumb enough to extend Clarkson's contract while he ran away from the truth and took the people investigating him to court.


Oh, and I'm far too cynical to buy the "we don't know what happened" bullshit.

 

[pablo668]

If it were my club I think I'd be heartbroken.
No club or person is bigger than the game though, so should the worst be true I'd expect my club and those involved to be punished to the full extent.

Anything less than that makes the game and the rules that govern it meaningless.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Richard Ings @ringsau · 3h
@uglybustards @TraceyLeeHolmes @ABC_NewsRadio Evidence ASADA is relying on has been shared with the players (according to Little).

*facepalm*

Little just can't help himself. They have already destroyed 2 seasons, why can't they wait till after Grand Final to reveal their decision and further commentary

Oh thats right, its all about him & Hird

So they have seen the evidence, which is weak according to everyone including little , yet still want it suppressed, another half truth by that bastion of honesty EFC

 

[mick]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/should-elliott-resign-be-sacked.33420/

A sample of 15 supporters, 5 of whom wouldn't have voted him out ... compelling

You're talking about a poll result in which The Sheik comprised 10% of the vote



Stopped reading right here. Pratt didn't even commit a crime. Doubtless this mighty defense was merely people just trying to set straight your hysterically false and aggradised version of "the facts".

The Fact is:

On 2 November 2007, Pratt and the Visy group received an A$36 million fine, representing the largest fine in Australian history.

Hence Pratt is Australia's largest corporate criminal. What he wasn't convicted of was impropriety, because the thieving scumbag didn't have the good grace to remain healthy enough to face charges. From the actual Federal court findings: "4. Mr Pratt was knowingly concerned in Visy’s contraventions, however, no pecuniary penalty against him because as owner of Visy he will bear the burden of the corporate penalty;" They couldn't fine his company who he was a majority share holder in AND hit him with a pecuniary penalty. I just wish the campaigner had stayed healthy a little longer, I'd have enjoyed seeing that well dressed thief die in jail for his S.5 offences.

Hird is only ripping of his supporters, footy followers and the EFC. Pratt ripped of every Australian. And you are defending him, simply because you think he was good for Carlton..no different to the Hirdites.

The shame of it is, I probably wouldn't be any different than any Blues/Essendon tragic if it was a Hawthorn hero in the same position.