Non essendon supporters what if this was your club?

[The Sultan]

This is the problem. Regardless what was injected? What if they knew it was all completely legal?

It's a hypothetical, but very easy for people to sit on a high horse here.

For all the strong opinions, would you not want proof before you threw all you believed and followed with your club out the door?

If ASADA have proof enough to get a conviction, then it will hurt me to no end, but yes, bans should be given out and anyone with anything to do with it should be cleaned out.

So far ASADA have not been able to come up with proof. If they had, then surely it would have been wrapped up by now. Lets not pretend there haven't been other clubs that have injected something. VDS66 will have your clubs gutted if they have had as much as a flu shot though.

But a bulk of Essendons defence has not been about the drugs it's been about attacking the afl, vlad, ASADA, the journos and anyone else.

 

[Thrawn]

Hird is only ripping of his supporters, footy followers and the EFC. Pratt ripped of every Australian. And you are defending him, simply because you think he was good for Carlton..no different to the Hirdites.

He's doing more than just ripping them off. Hird oversaw a program which he approved injecting a mixture of unknown/banned substances that might have severe health repercussions. A sense of perspective please, Essendon/Hird's actions are worse.

 

[Tiger_man322]

I'd be surprised if Richmond were still a club at this stage if it was happening to us. 30 years of nothing followed by Richo becoming coach and drugging the whole list.

I've already lost a lot of interest in the sport due to the whole saga and the AFL exposing just how inept and poorly run they really are. Why follow a sport when the HQ can't even run a proper organisation?

 

[Perry Pie]

This is the problem. Regardless what was injected? What if they knew it was all completely legal?

It's a hypothetical, but very easy for people to sit on a high horse here.

For all the strong opinions, would you not want proof before you threw all you believed and followed with your club out the door?

If ASADA have proof enough to get a conviction, then it will hurt me to no end, but yes, bans should be given out and anyone with anything to do with it should be cleaned out.

So far ASADA have not been able to come up with proof. If they had, then surely it would have been wrapped up by now. Lets not pretend there haven't been other clubs that have injected something. VDS66 will have your clubs gutted if they have had as much as a flu shot though.

If they "knew" it "was all completely legal" where are the records? Opps, the records have been mislaid!
Not good enough - if it was my club I would want the lot gone. Further, the behaviour since this came to light has been a disgrace and I would be ashamed of my club.

 

[Andronicus]

But a bulk of Essendons defence has not been about the drugs it's been about attacking the afl, vlad, ASADA, the journos and anyone else.

Only in recent times.

Cooperating early was getting nowhere and it became quite obvious that there was a lot of corruption in the dealings by ASADA and the afl.

 

[B0SK]

If it was my club the cleanout would've happened in early 2013 instead of 2015.

Easy to take the high road when it's only a hypothetical.

Easy to take the low road when you think its your only chance to escape punishment.

 

[The Sultan]

Only in recent times.

Cooperating early was getting nowhere and it became quite obvious that there was a lot of corruption in the dealings by ASADA and the afl.

How is the afl and asada corrupt, look I believe vlad knew it was coming and did probably warn essendon, just to let them know it's coming and they should be ready to comply.


Is this a corrupt act no, was it a good idea prob not.

ASADA as per Justice Middleton have acted appropriately the whole way thru....

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

No you didn't.

Elliott was tossed out far too late (had he gone earlier I reckon you'd have been spared). In fact the ASIC were about to disqualify him from being a company director so it was anything but "post haste". Other salary cap cheats like Kernahan were kept and worshiped.

Plenty of Carlton supporters still deny the club did anything wrong, or at best were doing what "everyone else was doing". Plenty still think the club was a victim.

Sound familiar?

The first part is wrong. Elliott was tossed out at the first opportunity after charges were laid. There was talk about an investigation, then confirmation, then he offered to sign a stat dec saying it was all above board, then the charges, then the supporter anger.

Yes, the supporters held on to hope it wasn't that bad, hoped a new ticket might ease the pain. The new president urged two players to go forward with what they knew. This all took place in mere weeks.

The AFL probably would have gone easier on us if the club cooperated with the investigation earlier, but it wasn't about the supporters not ousting Elliot sooner. We had no information as to what had happened. We had to wait for the charges to come.

Everything after that is selective. Plenty accepted and moved on, plenty might quibble about the size of the penalties but not that they were deserved. Very few still backed Elliot. Some did want us to head to the courts. None of us can be responsible for the rest and the most extreme opinions are not representative. We simply went through a grieving process to deal with the situation. It hurt ... a lot.

The key to the Essendon saga is how many of these supporters exist and whether they have the voice to make change. I know many think they may have technically breaches anti-doping laws but may not have actually taken the substances. That's fine. They need to act on the position their club has put them in, even if they think there is room to avoid a guilty finding.

 

[invinciBlues]

I guess even though this thread went off topic, it does give Essendon supporters a bit of insight as to what they can expect from opposition supporters after all this is finally done and dusted.

Some people will people will never let it go. Even after all the players involved have retired, all those involved in orchestrating it have been sacked or moved on, even after the effects of the penalties have worn off, there will always be some obsessive types that will constantly bring it up and attempt to rewrite history. To what end, or what they personally derive from it, I couldnt say. Its been more than a decade since that Black Friday and people still love flying their banners in this never-ending crusade about how evil Carlton is for paying guys a little extra coin on the side. God only knows what you guys can expect for your own fiasco.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

There's prob already a thread on this but could see it.....

Say if this was your club, and your club icons involved in this saga would you drink the kool-aid and blindly believe that what ever they said was gospel?

Would you demand the club answer the charge?

sack everyone involved, then answer the charges, the scandal would do enough damage to the club without putting us Millions in the red to protect a coach.

would feel for the players and be devo, but watching the swans strive to make headway and have no debt despite the afl forcing us to buy back our own licence in the mid 90's, to see that all go to s**t to protect a few campaigners, when we are in a town where the average person wouldn't even know 17 of the clubs in the comp. I'd be ropeable.

Most of all though i want an answer! IF the clubs innocent, lets prove it. if not clear the decks.
i would mail my members card back to the club if they took the matter to court to try and suppress everything on a technicality.

 

[mehow2g]

From the very second this story broke, without any actual evidence or proof, people were screaming drug cheat and the like at us. Amazingly enough, we went of the defensive. If you say you wouldn't have done the same thing, you're a liar.

Because the very second the story broke you could see the bullshit.

2 Things.

It was only Vitamin C to help us sleep Mc'Veigh. Where is the Vitamin C arguement? where are the Essendon fans saying it was only Vitamin C? since its not talked about you would think Essendon supporters are pretty much saying Mc'Veigh is full of s**t, If McVeigh did not go into denial mode with that pathetic excuse I would have been Neutral for a bit longer.

Second one, the Excuse of sacking the weapon was laughable.

One of the things taht stick out to me that made me absolute cringe and the only time I felt sorry for the Essendon players is when they were forced to support the most egotistical thing I have ever seen, going on twitter and typing #standbyhird, What an absolute ******* joke.

 

[West Coast Weasel]

2007-08 were not fun years for West Coast supporters. Cousins was suspended indefinitely before eventually being delisted, we cut an AA ruckman, got a very thorough audit by the AFL and in the end probably contributed to Judd wanting to leave, we truly were a basket case off field by that stage. The Gillard Commission was especially troubling as we could of lost draft picks, premiership points and been crippled by heavy fines, but the club let the AFL in and they were happy with the steps we took to rid ourselves of the drug culture. There must be a link to the 90 page report floating around somewhere on the web, just couldn't find it myself.

In the end, the club did what it had to do even if our favourite 'sons' in Cousin and Worsfold had to cop a lashing. Shame the Dons can't just let ASADA do its thing, surely they'd look at West Coast of 07 and go 'That's not how you run a club, let's ditch the bad eggs before they ruin it for everyone'.

 

[The Sultan]

Re the carlton situation... Yes we did the wrong thing we got caught, copped a big whack for it, all those involved where moved on. As a supporter I somewhat resent how hard we were hit compared to other clubs but I think that may have have been due to some of the people involved on both sides ie a little
Payback..

But in the end no one was hurt other than reputation players got a little extra $$ but their still fit and healthy.

However injecting players with who knows what, who know how many times and what are the long term effects on them and their families is morally wrong on so many levels, essendon are yet
To address this and that is what erks most non supporters.

 

[Ricmel]

It's hard to say how you would react but I think you have to learn from past lessons. If I look at the other big club scandal, Carlton's salary cap cheating, the Blues have never been the same. They went from being a big 4 club with consistent premiership success to back amongst the pack and a permanent stain on them.

I think Essendon are headed the same way, maybe even worse.

What I think both clubs did wrong is they went into denial and failed to clean house. I think both clubs would have emerged in a much better position had they copped it all sweet and cleaned out everyone in the club that had any involvement in the issues immediately.

So if it were Saints, I would hope they would do just that. Full transparency and clean out everyone who involved in the issue.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I don't think this whole saga could happen at my club, if we'd been caught out like Essendon we would have given up early on looking for leniency or the club would have ceased to exist, possibly both.

Only a Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton could ever push it this far without being culled, the other clubs would all have folded to authorities early on, some to minimised damage, others because of not having the resources to fight it.

I'd be really pissed at the people in charge at my club and the players though, wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire pissed.

 

[mehow2g]

I think the argument of essendon should have cooperated is a bit flawed maybe the reason why they have been so difficult because maybe they know the truth will land them in jail.

 

[Grwin]

Went through it at West Coast although i think the club tried to manage things it blew up in their face and they had to cop the reaming from the AFL.
It was only through cooperation with the AFL more sanctions were averted. I still think they should have acted earlier and harder it might have prevented a lot of criticism.
A lot of it was not deserved as the chief individuals were addicts and could not be helped and it was a new situation at the time which would have been managed differently with what they know now.
I still remember the applause Cousins got in his return game it was surreal after all the damage he had done he still got applauded.

But Essendon supplied their players with ped's and most likely had a coach actively involved in the supply and distribution of the ped's, bypassed all record keeping and then fought the AFL ASADA for all they were worth spending millions in the process. The players are no better off now than they were in 2013.
The media circus continues unabated. the players some of whom were duped, some i think were actively ignoring the evidence in front of them and others were certain to be fully aware of what was going on have yet to face the music and it's two years on.
All this after a Club like West Coast got keel hauled because they could not manage some drug addicts it beggars belief they they thought it was going to end well.

If that happened at West Coast i would not be a member until all the people involved were removed from the organisation.

 

[Monkey King]

The Fact is:

Didn't bother reading your post. I'd venture a guess I know the facts in far greater detail than you. You called Pratt the biggest corporate criminal in Australian history and yet he never even committed a crime. Not interested in discussing it with you given you clearly know s**t all about what you're talking about. I'd have a better quality conversation discussing the upcoming Grand Final with a gnat.

 

[carnthedons]

Fundamentally, none of you can honestly understand the situation. You can speak in hypotheticals all you like but until you've been there, you don't know jack.

Every day is a different, conflicting set of emotions and I'm just a fan, not a player/employee/family member. If the people involved deliberately cheated then that's one thing, I don't believe that to be the case. If they inadvertantly broke the WAD code, then they will bear the consequences which are increasingly looking like a slap on the wrist so that ASADA can be seen to be relevant and stamping out "cheats". If this is all the result of kneejerk reactionism from the govt, ASADA, ACC, AFL, EFC and all concerned then that's the biggest shame and that's what it looks like (I know that won't be a popular view here). Whatever the outcome, we'll likely never know the absolute truth and nobody will truly win in any of this.

 

[The Sultan]

Fundamentally, none of you can honestly understand the situation. You can speak in hypotheticals all you like but until you've been there, you don't know jack.

Every day is a different, conflicting set of emotions and I'm just a fan, not a player/employee/family member. If the people involved deliberately cheated then that's one thing, I don't believe that to be the case. If they inadvertantly broke the WAD code, then they will bear the consequences which are increasingly looking like a slap on the wrist so that ASADA can be seen to be relevant and stamping out "cheats". If this is all the result of kneejerk reactionism from the govt, ASADA, ACC, AFL, EFC and all concerned then that's the biggest shame and that's what it looks like (I know that won't be a popular view here). Whatever the outcome, we'll likely never know the absolute truth and nobody will truly win in any of this.

That's the thing essendon hasn't been transparent in what was going on it has been all attack and discredit. If they were up front and said we f'd up it got slightly out of control there was nothing illegal but we were very borderline, and world with the afl and asada they would of come out wounded but now the big boys will look to make an example of them.

 

[carnthedons]

That's the thing essendon hasn't been transparent in what was going on it has been all attack and discredit. If they were up front and said we f'd up it got slightly out of control there was nothing illegal but we were very borderline, and world with the afl and asada they would of come out wounded but now the big boys will look to make an example of them.

To be honest, nobody has been transparent in any of this. If this had've been handled like anti doping investigations should, we wouldn't know about any of this and the "no case to answer" outcome would've been available to ASADA. Given the political grandstanding, irrespective of what went on at EFC, that is not a viable outcome for ASADA to deliver.

 

[Catastic82]

To be honest, nobody has been transparent in any of this. If this had've been handled like anti doping investigations should, we wouldn't know about any of this and the "no case to answer" outcome would've been available to ASADA. Given the political grandstanding, irrespective of what went on at EFC, that is not a viable outcome for ASADA to deliver.

*roll eyes*

 

[carnthedons]

*roll eyes*

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I'd be ropable if this was North because we probably would never recover. However, just say we were loaded, I would still be mighty pissed at the following:

• Got caught up in an ACC investigation into drugs in sport
• Engaged a person known for dodgy sports science practices to catch up with Collingwood and Hawthorn, who he said were on the gear
• Instigated an injection program, giving carte blanche to this individual without consultation with the club doctor, let alone experts in the field
• Failed to check with the appropriate sporting body that substances being used were legal
• Failed to keep records of type and frequency of substances injected, and into who they were injected
• Allowed for players to be injected with substances off site and in an uncontrolled environment
• Failed to ensure that protocols which were set up months into the program, and only after the club doctor complained, were adhered to

Further to that, I would also be mighty pissed off with the club if they then refused to go along with the process designed to handle such matters. The reality is that an independent panel will assess the evidence gathered to determine if there is enough there to proceed to the AFL tribunal with a recommendation of suspension of players. I am not stupid enough to think that this panel will act under instruction to deliver the preferred outcome for ASADA. There is no conspiracy, just vested interests, specifically the AFL and the EFC trying to influence the process to deliver their preferred outcomes, which in this case are aligned.

 

[mehow2g]

I'd be ropable if this was North because we probably would never recover. However, just say we were loaded, I would still be mighty pissed at the following:

• Got caught up in an ACC investigation into drugs in sport
• Engaged a person known for dodgy sports science practices to catch up with Collingwood and Hawthorn, who he said were on the gear
• Instigated an injection program, giving carte blanche to this individual without consultation with the club doctor, let alone experts in the field
• Failed to check with the appropriate sporting body that substances being used were legal
• Failed to keep records of type and frequency of substances injected, and into who they were injected
• Allowed for players to be injected with substances off site and in an uncontrolled environment
• Failed to ensure that protocols which were set up months into the program, and only after the club doctor complained, were adhered to

Further to that, I would also be mighty pissed off with the club if they then refused to go along with the process designed to handle such matters. The reality is that an independent panel will assess the evidence gathered to determine if there is enough there to proceed to the AFL tribunal with a recommendation of suspension of players. I am not stupid enough to think that this panel will act under instruction to deliver the preferred outcome for ASADA. There is no conspiracy, just vested interests, specifically the AFL and the EFC trying to influence the process to deliver their preferred outcomes, which in this case are aligned.

I don't think the bold points are exactly true, most of those changed because of a PR campaign, no doubt they had records no doubt about at all but at the time it suited them one reason is to destroy the evidence the other was probably apart of the script so AFL can ban/charge them for a non doping related issue "Governance", made the AFL look good and Essendon copped a very light penalty win-win.