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Norm Smith Medallist
Jan 19, 2014
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We're talking about the vfl flag winning team aren't we?? Comparing it to geelongs 2012 winning team???

Even if we're including bonti, stringer, Macrae and Libba I'd take the accolades the 5 Geelong lads have racked up to be fair....
My bad. In which case I agree it's very very long odds that one of our players from the VFL team yesterday will reach the level of those 5. Tempted to say won't but .....
 
Talking about across their careers of course timtam. You think our guys will get near that? How good would that be.
I think they might get close, they definitely have the talent. And they also have the will to apply themselves and make themselves better.

Only thing is that our boys will get a couple more flags :p
 

ThirdLegUp

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I don't disagree at all. The blind, ponderous and less than skillful delivery from midfield has meant his attacking strengths have been under utilised for a few years. Mentioned in another thread that when he has played, he's made many unrewarded leads that the distributors have been just too blind to see. It would be a pity if his departure coincided with the emergence of a midfield that would complement him. Jones also to a degree has suffered a similar fate though my jury is still out as to whether he'll have the impact he did yesterday at the higher level, on better defenders and on a consistent basis. I'm leaning towards not.

First bold... exactly! one of the most frustrating things about playing VFL is that players are just not fast enough to spot your little dinky leads, more painful is that it is happening in the bloody 1sts.. grrrr

Seconds Bold... Exactly. Jones has the strengths of a very good VFL forward. AFL... up in the air. they are not just more skilled then VFL, but smarter too. and will use a team mate to help nullify him if needed. As we saw in the GF, they tried double teaming. Didn't work, even when he took that 2 on 1 mark, man did i giggle at that. But was that because he is a lot better, or because redpath was also someone to worry about. i have my doubt;s on jones as you do, same, i lean toward maybe he can't cut it. But in the yay court, i agree, he has not had a redpath to help in the firsts. Redpath, jones, crameri, stringer... that does sound like a bloody beefy forward line in theory. Practice? lol your guess is as good as mine.
 

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How ******* good was yesterday! I've had a terrible day today but nothing has managed to ruin my mood.

I actually did kick on with the boys afterwards which was great fun (especially because I knew the bartender at the other place and drank for free until 4am). They're actually all ripping blokes!
 
this is an actual thing. has more to do with player abilities that are no as tangable as, how well he kicks or handballs, marks or speed. but rather what is taking place in their minds. the speed of the mind must match the speed of the environment. the vast majority of players are slower of mind, and cannot compete at the faster environment of the AFL until they learn. think Austin. but every now and then, there are those who are faster of mind, and struggle to function when their environment makes them slow down. Example, i walk and do things very fast..i dead set HATE walking anywhere with my wife, who is a plodder, i have to physically slow myself down, it feels awkward and off, where she stares at an object, i have seen it, analysed it and am moving on, but no, i have to wait for her to catch up, after about 15 minutes, i'm so frustrated my mind shuts off, and i don't care where we are or where we are going, just wake me when we get there. This is Grant.

A VFL grand final is pretty much an afl home and away game. I'm not surprised grant was able to exploit the tempo straight from the start. Had he kicked straight, we would all be saying the game was over when grant kicked 4 in the first.
No sorry, simply not true for all players. Rioli is one thing, Grant is another. Grant will never be an A grader at all levels, but can be an A grader at the top flight by exploiting his quick mind at that level, where his assets are actually a hindrance when all your team mates are slow to react, to your movement and your intended action when you have it. Dahl could be said to have had a similar impact where as no one was interested in him before he exploded onto the AFL level. He was a perfect fit for it. We get stuck in trying to match players with our gameplan, which is where my dig on Macca is. Grant will be of no service to use unless we are prepared to design a gameplan around his assets, which is (sorry for the coaching terms) Predictive impact, B-centric ball movement, economic high yield output.

Macca has no use for these types in his game plan
Sorry, TLU but I am still highly sceptical. And that's putting it politely.

Let's dispense with the wife analogy to start with. It's totally inapt. You are comparing a leisurely pastime (walking with the wife) to a brutal and highly competitive sport. The aim is to destroy the opposition (in footy that is, not in marriage). If the opposition and your teammates are plodders and you are that good you can simply go at your own pace. Dance around them, think ahead of them, do what they can't do. You should be dominating.

You use Dahlhaus as an example and I agree it's an instructive one. He was overlooked in the draft mainly because he is a shrimp and wasn't dominating at junior levels, even though he had pace, competitiveness and tenacity (leading tackler at TAC level). We gave him a chance, and in his first season started him in the development league. After 3 games there he earned a call up to the VFL seniors where he also dominated and after just 3 VFL games we elevated him to the senior side. The rest is history. He was never a non-performer in the VFL.

Grant is nothing like that. He was a standout at junior level but took 2-3 years to start performing at an acceptable level in the AFL and has only produced a handful of very good games in the 62 he has played at AFL level. His best year was in 2010 in a top 4 side when he played 20 games and kicked 29 goals. His output has been declining ever since and we have been living in hope he will recreate that form, which seems more and more unlikely as each year goes by (yes, untimely injuries haven't helped but they don't excuse him).

But let's assume you are right and he really does play better at AFL level. Why then doesn't he rate among the bests most weeks? Why does he get dropped after every few games? Why is he averaging only 12.2 disposals (6 K + 6.2 HB) a match? Why, as a forward, has he only kicked 2.0 in four AFL games in 2014 (in which he averaged over 75% game time)? How many Brownlow votes will he get tonight? He got two last year and has had five in his whole career.

I can understand a game plan being adapted for a consistent star player or one with outstanding attributes but I am not overly keen on it. You are encouraging players to be bigger than the team. However to formulate a game plan for an inconsistent player like Grant would be folly. I think you might consider tweaking the game plan a bit to capitalise on certain players' attributes if they are exceptional and consistent (which Grant is not) but you still start with a game plan that players have to conform to, and you draft and develop players with that in mind. Macca has been strong on that principle since his first press interview.

Perhaps where we agree is that Macca has no use for these types in his game plan. But how many coaches would have use for a player who is so mercurial - occasionally brilliant, but too often goes missing? Maybe it's only those teams that are already loaded with talent like Hawthorn, Sydney or the 2010 Bulldogs.

The problem is he's not a player that can take you to the top 4 and that's the type of player we need now.
 
How ******* good was yesterday! I've had a terrible day today but nothing has managed to ruin my mood.

I actually did kick on with the boys afterwards which was great fun (especially because I knew the bartender at the other place and drank for free until 4am). They're actually all ripping blokes!
lucky sob
 

ThirdLegUp

Premiership Player
Apr 29, 2013
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Sorry, TLU but I am still highly sceptical. And that's putting it politely.

Let's dispense with the wife analogy to start with. It's totally inapt. You are comparing a leisurely pastime (walking with the wife) to a brutal and highly competitive sport. The aim is to destroy the opposition (in footy that is, not in marriage). If the opposition and your teammates are plodders and you are that good you can simply go at your own pace. Dance around them, think ahead of them, do what they can't do. You should be dominating.

You use Dahlhaus as an example and I agree it's an instructive one. He was overlooked in the draft mainly because he is a shrimp and wasn't dominating at junior levels, even though he had pace, competitiveness and tenacity (leading tackler at TAC level). We gave him a chance, and in his first season started him in the development league. After 3 games there he earned a call up to the VFL seniors where he also dominated and after just 3 VFL games we elevated him to the senior side. The rest is history. He was never a non-performer in the VFL.

Grant is nothing like that. He was a standout at junior level but took 2-3 years to start performing at an acceptable level in the AFL and has only produced a handful of very good games in the 62 he has played at AFL level. His best year was in 2010 in a top 4 side when he played 20 games and kicked 29 goals. His output has been declining ever since and we have been living in hope he will recreate that form, which seems more and more unlikely as each year goes by (yes, untimely injuries haven't helped but they don't excuse him).

But let's assume you are right and he really does play better at AFL level. Why then doesn't he rate among the bests most weeks? Why does he get dropped after every few games? Why is he averaging only 12.2 disposals (6 K + 6.2 HB) a match? Why, as a forward, has he only kicked 2.0 in four AFL games in 2014 (in which he averaged over 75% game time)? How many Brownlow votes will he get tonight? He got two last year and has had five in his whole career.

I can understand a game plan being adapted for a consistent star player or one with outstanding attributes but I am not overly keen on it. You are encouraging players to be bigger than the team. However to formulate a game plan for an inconsistent player like Grant would be folly. I think you might consider tweaking the game plan a bit to capitalise on certain players' attributes if they are exceptional and consistent (which Grant is not) but you still start with a game plan that players have to conform to, and you draft and develop players with that in mind. Macca has been strong on that principle since his first press interview.

Perhaps where we agree is that Macca has no use for these types in his game plan. But how many coaches would have use for a player who is so mercurial - occasionally brilliant, but too often goes missing? Maybe it's only those teams that are already loaded with talent like Hawthorn, Sydney or the 2010 Bulldogs.

The problem is he's not a player that can take you to the top 4 and that's the type of player we need now.

LOL thank you for the massive post... makes me feel special :D

However you said it yourself. Maybe he is better at a team with stars. Exactly! i have never claimed he was a gun. can be dangerous with a gameplan he fits in. as i said in an earlier post. a one trick pony. suitable for a specific gameplan, and he can be deadly, in that gameplan. but why would we change our gameplan around grant? or even Bonti for that matter. you wont. If grant was up for drafting now, macca wouldn't go near him.

My post was more toward a player not being so good in a lesser league. As crazy as it sounds, i was that type of player. lets take 1993. in the B team i scored 0 goals, and 2 assists in 8 games. As a midfield play maker.. that = s**t.

But in 15 A team games, i had 6 goals, and 28 assists. thats right 28! 28 goals in 15 games created directly off my own boot. I WAS A SUPERSTAR!!! lol. rubbish, i was a very fast edurance running machine, i was super accurate with 1 touch, and elite predictive impact. Couldn't win a header to save my life, would probably break my own legs if i tried to dribble an opponent... oh and i was good at hurting people, but thats not really a skill. None of my one touch glory was of any use in the B team, because they were never in position, too slow to react, my runs were most often pointless, as they would lose the ball, or not hit me accurately. in truth, i was a liability in the B team, often cracking it completely, but they had to play me if i was coming back from injury or something. I was just lucky that the coaches recognised i was a player specifically built for a certain style, the magic ingrediant to put inbetween an exeptional back line, and i very good strike team. Result, more cups then you can poke a stick at. but before i got there...they were middle of the table at best, same team, just me different. I know i know, i didn't play vfl or afl, but it is still pro sport, and going from NSL to Premier league or even state league 1st on one occasion. I Hated It, everything was so wrong. I can't explain it to you other then, with each new level you go up, you forget how to go back.

But thats what my main post was about, the mythical better at a higher level. It is real, though rare, most people who make the top market are more well rounded then i was, or indeed then grant is... but whether it apples to grant, is up in the air.

Oh and the wife part was clearly (i thought )tongue in cheek, you expect me to make a post about frustration and not mention the wife, whats wrong with you, i'm a married man!

and in case you're wondering, most of my posts on here are tongue in cheek, bad things happen if you take BF too seriously.
(on account of our opinions meaning Sweet FA in even the smallest scheme of things) I mean, i could be full of s**t, be a 65 year old potato grower who never kicked a ball of any kind... then again i could be macca keeping an eye on all of you heheh.. or i could just be TLU, soccer tragic who lives through football because i will only cry myself to sleep if i watch a soccer game... or just a figment of your imagination... don't look now, but i think everyone else on this board is looking at you funny wondering who you're talking to!
 

HiReception

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Aug 8, 2010
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and in case you're wondering, most of my posts on here are tongue in cheek, bad things happen if you take BF too seriously. (on account of our opinions meaning Sweet FA in even the smallest scheme of things) I mean, i could be full of s**t, be a 65 year old potato grower who never kicked a ball of any kind... then again i could be macca keeping an eye on all of you heheh.. or i could just be TLU, soccer tragic who lives through football because i will only cry myself to sleep if i watch a soccer game... or just a figment of your imagination... don't look now, but i think everyone else on this board is looking at you funny wondering who you're talking to!

Only because they've already put you on ignore :p
 

TheHoneyBadger

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Surprised Jensen only had it 11 times, seemed like he was all over it. At a distance from the front/side, it's easy to confuse him with Honeychurch, I suppose.
 

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dockendorf

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Flag in Bag 2014.gif

The flag is in the bag!
 
Oct 2, 2010
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Who do you reckon will become our own version of them?

My view of our players playing yesterday.

LT potentially good players (hopefully for us)
Jones (potentially better than good)
Jong
JJ (see Jones)
Campbell
Honeychurch
Talia
Darley

Hoping (some we have been waiting a while on)?
Redpath
Pearce
Tutt
Grant
Cordy
Dickson

Delist this year (good VFL players, but won't make the transition)
Austin
Greenwood
Goodes
Young
Howard

VFL Boys
Fogarty (get him on the list!)
Hayes (retain as top-up)
Jensen (retain as top-up)
Russell (keep employed)
Prismall (keep employed)
 
Just a couple of related comments:
After the final siren it was very interesting to spend a few moments looking around at the faces of many older Bulldogs fans. The expressions of joy and relief were palpable after enduring such a long era of minimal success. These poor souls who have given most of their lives to supporting an unsuccessful team deserved the day and deserve an even better reason to be rewarded in the near future.

I recall in a few threads earlier this season there were some contributors who were critical of Peter Gordon's leadership of our club, even to the point of wishing him gone. For those who held that view, take a look at his interview after the win and you will see the most passionate, dedicated and determined president to ever front an AFL team. Of course, we all want enthusiasm turned into results, but I have no doubt whatsover that he will leave no stone unturned in the quest for the ultimate success.
 
My view of our players playing yesterday.

LT potentially good players (hopefully for us)
Jones (potentially better than good)
Jong
JJ (see Jones)
Campbell
Honeychurch
Talia
Darley

Hoping (some we have been waiting a while on)?
Redpath
Pearce
Tutt
Grant
Cordy
Dickson

Delist this year (good VFL players, but won't make the transition)
Austin
Greenwood
Goodes
Young
Howard

VFL Boys
Fogarty (get him on the list!)
Hayes (retain as top-up)
Jensen (retain as top-up)
Russell (keep employed)
Prismall (keep employed)

Fair summation. Given Gia and Williams have retired that is a minimum of 7 list and rookie spots up to a maximum of 13 which sounds about right.
 
Sep 27, 2011
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My view of our players playing yesterday.

LT potentially good players (hopefully for us)
Jones (potentially better than good)
Jong
JJ (see Jones)
Campbell
Honeychurch
Talia
Darley

Hoping (some we have been waiting a while on)?
Redpath
Pearce
Tutt
Grant
Cordy
Dickson

Delist this year (good VFL players, but won't make the transition)
Austin
Greenwood
Goodes
Young
Howard

VFL Boys
Fogarty (get him on the list!)
Hayes (retain as top-up)
Jensen (retain as top-up)
Russell (keep employed)
Prismall (keep employed)
Spot on in my books BB........Question is when do we go from Hoping to Delist on some of those players???
 

Obscene

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My view of our players playing yesterday.
IT is interesting to read the discussions on Big Footy. I heard our President state that in his opinion 10 or 11 of The VFL premiership side will play in excess of 100 more AFL games in future years. Our president has been very generous with his money and made our club relevant with his comments but he hasn't won me over with his footy smarts !! In the cold light of day and 48 hours since the buzz of Sunday it is pertinent to look at a few facts from the VFL finals campaign. On Sunday we fielded 18 AFL listed or rookie players with 5 VFL listed players and our average age was 22.86. Those 23 players have combined for 603 AFL games and 1166 VFL games. In contrast the Box Hill side had 16 AFL listed or rookies and 7 VFL players. Their average age was 21.86 and they had a total of 340 AFL games and 996 VFL games. Clearly we had the more experienced side on the ground.

When you think that from the 18 AFL players likely departures will be Goodes, Austin, Greenwood, Howard and Young and that Dickson and Pearce are hanging on by their fingertips with no realistic expectation that they will be able to have an impact at AFL level.

All supporters have been waiting for Ayce to have an impact and then he has one kick and one mark in the Grand Final despite having a great year in the VFL. Mitch Honeychurch has everyone excited with his early season form but he had 12 kicks in the whole three finals he played.

What is Liam Jones going to do as he is yet to re commit and like Michael Talia seems to receive no love from Macca and both are believed to be looking at other AFL club's for opportunities. Tutty has been around for 5 years and still is exposed with his lack of physicality but we all like his speed. Continual fumbling under pressure is a huge concern and then there is Jarrad Grant who has been at the kennel even longer. JJ is facing a very big year in 2015 and lets hope he can improve to become a regular player at AFL level, a challenge which he has not nailed yet. The same could be said for Tom Campbell .... he is definitely more advanced than Ayce despite less years in " the system " and "learning his craft ".

I have concerns over Sam Darley as he has not performed at any special level throughout 2014. Undoubtedly Lin Jong is the big improver and the more he can handball instead of kicking will enhance his AFL bona fides. Speed and courage are great qualities and he is exciting. Jack Redpath gets most people on Big Footy excited but when you take a more analytical look at his performances, there are still glaring deficiencies in his make up. Firstly he hardly ever takes a contested mark and he is too easily run off. He has had three years as a rookie but I think they will upgrade him to the senior list but can he become a 100 game AFL player ...... I don't think so.

This summation will hopefully spark some debate and comment and I honestly cant see Gordon's prediction becoming even remotely possible.

Our 2014 list was the healthiest in the AFL with minimal injuries. The trade week is going to be fascinating for our club.

FYI I believe the part time coaching philosophy is over with neither of Scarlett or Mooney to return in 2016 and Shannon Grant already shown the door ....... interesting times ahead.



LT potentially good players (hopefully for us)
Jones (potentially better than good)
Jong
JJ (see Jones)
Campbell
Honeychurch
Talia
Darley

Hoping (some we have been waiting a while on)?
Redpath
Pearce
Tutt
Grant
Cordy
Dickson

Delist this year (good VFL players, but won't make the transition)
Austin
Greenwood
Goodes
Young
Howard

VFL Boys
Fogarty (get him on the list!)
Hayes (retain as top-up)
Jensen (retain as top-up)
Russell (keep employed)
Prismall (keep employed)
 
Just a couple of related comments:
After the final siren it was very interesting to spend a few moments looking around at the faces of many older Bulldogs fans. The expressions of joy and relief were palpable after enduring such a long era of minimal success. These poor souls who have given most of their lives to supporting an unsuccessful team deserved the day and deserve an even better reason to be rewarded in the near future.

I was probably one of these poor souls! :D
 

Zgope1

Norm Smith Medallist
Jul 13, 2012
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Watching back the granny now. Love jongs pace around the ball. Clean by hand too.

Talia hasn't lost a contest and has kicked very well. Looks nice and big too
 

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