Essendon players ready to listen to ASADA deal offers

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Baldur said:
I cannot see the relevance of your link to my post. The author that regards WADA as some sort of out of control Frankenstein monster. This does not disagree with IanW's post about WADA perhaps taking umbrage at the Federal Court action.
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Quoting you:
"Ian did not say that. What he suggested was that WADA does not like athletes or sporting organisations using local courts in an attempt to avoid their international rules. Which is the typical attitude of any international body."

IanW's original quote, which I disagreed with was:
"Given the number of jurisdictions that might be inclined to protect popular national sportsmen, and politically influential teams, yes, I do want national courts out of sports doping matters."
(btw, this was far more than the ''WADA taking umbrage" line you suggest lol)

The article goes a step further than WADA not liking athletes accessing local courts to some of the implications of the revised code aligned with the attitude of people like you and IanW that would see WADA operate outside a nation's law
 
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telsa1962 said:
Quoting you:
"Ian did not say that. What he suggested was that WADA does not like athletes or sporting organisations using local courts in an attempt to avoid their international rules. Which is the typical attitude of any international body."

IanW's original quote, which I disagreed with was:
"Given the number of jurisdictions that might be inclined to protect popular national sportsmen, and politically influential teams, yes, I do want national courts out of sports doping matters."

The article goes a step further than WADA not liking athletes accessing local courts to some of the implications of the revised code aligned with the attitude of people like you and IanW that would see WADA operate outside a nation's law
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You are seeing a mirage

WADA has international rules that apply under Australian law due to an act of the Australian Parliament. I cannot recall making any comment in relation to if I thought that people mixed up in the gears of the WADA rules should be able to access Australian courts. Just that WADA may not like them doing so.

Here is an interesting idea for you to think about.

Just because somebody disagrees with you does not mean they are an evil Nazi out to rule to world and destroy truth, justice and the Essendon way.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
yep. Let's test the evidence once and for all. **** the appeal off, let's get this show on the road
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Does that mean Essendon is actually going to tell the truth about what happened?

Or are they going to continue with the charade that this is a criminal trial and they can just sit back mutely and refuse to cooperate and then get off on the presumption of innocence?

This is a sporting league. There's no presumption of innocence. There's plenty that's come out already that casts serious doubts over Essendon's conduct. At this point anything less than full, public disclosure and cooperation by Essendon tends to suggest that they have something to hide. For the sake of the integrity of the sport, if they can't explain what exactly they were injecting into their players and why then I'm happy for them to get the boot from the league.
 

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Baldur said:
You are seeing a mirage

WADA has international rules that apply under Australian law due to an act of the Australian Parliament. I cannot recall making any comment in relation to if I thought that people mixed up in the gears of the WADA rules should be able to access Australian courts. Just that WADA may not like them doing so.

Here is an interesting idea for you to think about.

Just because somebody disagrees with you does not mean they are an evil Nazi out to rule to world and destroy truth, justice and the Essendon way.
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what pisses me off is blokes like you misquoting more than anything else
IanW is a zealot who wants the national courts nowhere near antidoping and I disagreed with him, you chose to misquote what he actually said in an effort to discredit me (in fact you decided to weigh in on the conversation (not me) to support your zealot mate)
why you did that I don't know

and then after being called out you tender some crap about nazis and truth, justice and the essendon way
 
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caitsith01 said:
Does that mean Essendon is actually going to tell the truth about what happened?

Or are they going to continue with the charade that this is a criminal trial and they can just sit back mutely and refuse to cooperate and then get off on the presumption of innocence?

This is a sporting league. There's no presumption of innocence. There's plenty that's come out already that casts serious doubts over Essendon's conduct. At this point anything less than full, public disclosure and cooperation by Essendon tends to suggest that they have something to hide. For the sake of the integrity of the sport, if they can't explain what exactly they were injecting into their players and why then I'm happy for them to get the boot from the league.
.
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if you have absolutely no idea about the process then it's probably better to either a) learn it, or b) keep quiet.

Because if you make posts that display such a fundamental lack of understanding about the process and the framework then you are not doing yourself any favours.

It's hard to even start with how much you got wrong in that post
 
I don't see the problem.

Sure, if the players don't know what they took then it's impossible for them to assess whether it would be in their interests to make a deal with ASADA. But that's not ASADA's fault. If they don't know, and the club won't tell them what happened, then they will just have to submit themselves to the process.

ASADA hasn't fabricated their case out of thin air. They have stated that the interviews were a significant part of their case against the players. They have also interviewed coaches and support staff, reviewed club records, invoices, suppliers, etc. This is information that Essendon could have gained for themselves. The fact that EFC is saying they don't know what happened is ridiculous. They have as much, or more information, to hand as ASADA.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
if you have absolutely no idea about the process then it's probably better to either a) learn it, or b) keep quiet.

Because if you make posts that display such a fundamental lack of understanding about the process and the framework then you are not doing yourself any favours.

It's hard to even start with how much you got wrong in that post
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Yep, I'm not talking about the 'process'.

I'm talking about the information which is already known which causes any impartial person looking at the situation to have real doubts about what went on at your club.

It's just fundamentally odd that if Essendon hasn't done anything wrong, it's fighting so hard to raise every technicality it can to avoid the day of judgment. Surely you can see what impression that creates?
 
Argy said:
I don't see the problem.

Sure, if the players don't know what they took then it's impossible for them to assess whether it would be in their interests to make a deal with ASADA. But that's not ASADA's fault. If they don't know, and the club won't tell them what happened, then they will just have to submit themselves to the process.

ASADA hasn't fabricated their case out of thin air. They have stated that the interviews were a significant part of their case against the players. They have also interviewed coaches and support staff, reviewed club records, invoices, suppliers, etc. This is information that Essendon could have gained for themselves. The fact that EFC is saying they don't know what happened is ridiculous. They have as much, or more information, to hand as ASADA.
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spend a crap load of money on a technicality, "its all about the players"
the money could of been spent on taking Dank to court to spill his guts, that's all about the players
 
Argy said:
The fact that EFC is saying they don't know what happened is ridiculous. They have as much, or more information, to hand as ASADA.
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This is at the heart of all of this.

In a sporting league, if you might have injected banned substances but you can't tell anyone what precisely you did inject, then you should be out on your arse.
 
Zgope1 said:
So what's the deal, do asadas have to produce the evidence before it goes to the panel? If not, why are we talking about it?
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No. ASADA is required to show the evidence only if it goes to the panel.

Of course, in the interest of justice, once a player is actually accused of wrong doing (this hasn't happened yet) then that player gets to see the evidence against him prior to any hearing so that he is able to prepare a defence (or plead guilty). It is nobody's best interest to have a trial by ambush and this is specifically prevented from happening by any court in this country. The obligation is on any prosecutorial agency to make full disclosure before a trial.
 
caitsith01 said:
Yep, I'm not talking about the 'process'.

I'm talking about the information which is already known which causes any impartial person looking at the situation to have real doubts about what went on at your club.

It's just fundamentally odd that if Essendon hasn't done anything wrong, it's fighting so hard to raise every technicality it can to avoid the day of judgment. Surely you can see what impression that creates?
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you're confusing PR with the actual investigation.

The tribunal's opinion is all that matters. They actually see all of the evidence, they don't just read headlines.

On top of that, you are confusing club with players. Any penalties will be leveled at the players. Only the AFL can punish Essendon as a club, which they have already done. ASADA or WADA have zero capacity to punish Essendon
 
TIM Watson has bristled at calls for Essendon, and the 34 players facing show-cause notices, to cut a deal and carry the “stain of being a drug cheat”.

The former Essendon great, and father of Bombers’ captain Jobe, said the club should not accept blame without further evidence to suit the AFL and ASADA.

Evidence surrounding the use of the banned drug Thymosin beta-4 at Essendon in 2012 will be presented to the 34 former and current Bombers players facing doping charges.

“Why would anyone, anyone admit guilt and carry a stain of being a drug cheat just so this goes away and can be convenient for people,” Watson told SEN’s Morning Glory this morning.

“No one is over this Essendon supplements scandal more than the players, the families of the players, and the Essendon Football Club.

“But that doesn’t mean as some would suggest just take a deal so it can all end and we can all get on with our lives.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...066821684?nk=2714e1909f5adf1fe072671601405fa4

What a jerk, if they are over it, then answer the SCN, simple as that. Times must be tough at Channel 7, if they are wanting him as a commentator, its like Robbo in the making. Isn't it funny though, if another reporter (apart from Caro), said something opposite to it, they would be attacked by HS. Pathetic mob

Legal fees really hurt their pocket, and can't afford a spokesman, so need Timmy to do the work?
 

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Tim Watson is just a manipulator like the rest of cult Essendon.

You see, he... speaks... really slowly. And tilts his head toward the person and offers his.... slow... considered opinion, with a warm gesture and looks toward the... ground... as if in servitude, and shares his...... warm... considered opinion... and doesn't mention he has a conflict of interest and that his son stands to lose his brownlow with a gulty plea.
 
Bomber Thompson is right, the players need to be selfish now.

The club and Hird with their legal battles are not trying to clear the players, they are trying to quash information and protect themselves.

Having information quashed will not clear the players and they will carry the perception of being cheats, but at least Hird's future earning capacity will be sorted.

The players need to remove themselves from Essendon and receive info and advice that has their own interest as the sole priority.

Using Watson's train of thought the ONLY way a player can move on is to actual answer the charge, and hopefully clear their name...they should disassociate themselves from Essendon and their legal sh1te.

If a player unfortunately is found guilty then go as hard as they can at Essendon to ensure their financial future an health are secure.
 
imperial_oz said:
No. ASADA is required to show the evidence only if it goes to the panel.
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....and even then the players don't get to see the evidence if it has not been provided in the SCN.

The normal process is for the evidence to be provided with the "notification" from ASADA (unofficially called the SCN - the term "show cause" occurs nowhere in the NAD Scheme or ASADA Act). The "notification", according to the NAD Scheme, is required to include the "details" and in positive test cases includes full evidence including the lab pack details with other detailed information.

The "notification" from ASADA is usually the only source of evidence that the player (or whoever) receives before receiving an infraction notice from the sporting body which is almost always accompanied by a suspension sanction. The ADRV Panel does not communicate with the player at all. At the end of the notification submission period the ADRVP makes its decision based on information provided to it by ASADA and any submission by the player. The ADRVP does not reveal to the player the evidence used to make its decision. If the player does not receive the evidence in the SCN he will not get to see it until the tribunal which will normally be after he has been suspended and even then it depends on the sporting body's own rules and decision whether or not the player ever sees the evidence.

The evidence is usually provided with the SCN.
 
Bobby Charlton said:
....and even then the players don't get to see the evidence if it has not been provided in the SCN.

The normal process is for the evidence to be provided with the "notification" from ASADA (unofficially called the SCN - the term "show cause" occurs nowhere in the NAD Scheme or ASADA Act). The "notification", according to the NAD Scheme, is required to include the "details" and in positive test cases includes full evidence including the lab pack details with other detailed information.

The "notification" from ASADA is usually the only source of evidence that the player (or whoever) receives before receiving an infraction notice from the sporting body which is almost always accompanied by a suspension sanction. The ADRV Panel does not communicate with the player at all. At the end of the notification submission period the ADRVP makes its decision based on information provided to it by ASADA and any submission by the player. The ADRVP does not reveal to the player the evidence used to make its decision. If the player does not receive the evidence in the SCN he will not get to see it until the tribunal which will normally be after he has been suspended and even then it depends on the sporting body's own rules and decision whether or not the player ever sees the evidence.

The evidence is usually provided with the SCN.
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Bobby's back.

Welcome back. I know personally I have missed you and I am sure others have too.

Still rabbiting on about the process I see.

If the players of EFC are so confident in their knowledge they haven't "taken" anything banned, feel free to argue this at the relevant time. You see, it doesn't matter if it is via tribunal or via SCN or via ARVP, if you know and are confident then I am sure you wouldn't have much to fear from any of them.

But no piss around, whinge about process, about lack of evidence, about anything else, rather than do the 1 thing which is guaranteed to get you off if you are indeed innocent.
 
compact72 said:
TIM Watson has bristled at calls for Essendon, and the 34 players facing show-cause notices, to cut a deal and carry the “stain of being a drug cheat”.

The former Essendon great, and father of Bombers’ captain Jobe, said the club should not accept blame without further evidence to suit the AFL and ASADA.

Evidence surrounding the use of the banned drug Thymosin beta-4 at Essendon in 2012 will be presented to the 34 former and current Bombers players facing doping charges.

“Why would anyone, anyone admit guilt and carry a stain of being a drug cheat just so this goes away and can be convenient for people,” Watson told SEN’s Morning Glory this morning.

“No one is over this Essendon supplements scandal more than the players, the families of the players, and the Essendon Football Club.

“But that doesn’t mean as some would suggest just take a deal so it can all end and we can all get on with our lives.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...066821684?nk=2714e1909f5adf1fe072671601405fa4

What a jerk, if they are over it, then answer the SCN, simple as that. Times must be tough at Channel 7, if they are wanting him as a commentator, its like Robbo in the making. Isn't it funny though, if another reporter (apart from Caro), said something opposite to it, they would be attacked by HS. Pathetic mob

Legal fees really hurt their pocket, and can't afford a spokesman, so need Timmy to do the work?
Click to expand...

If Andy Maher was not so weak, he would have simply asked Tim, 'OK Tim the club and players know more than anyone, so tell us, what did they take"?

No answer hey Tim? If you don't know how can you say the players are innocent.
 
Bobby Charlton said:
....and even then the players don't get to see the evidence if it has not been provided in the SCN.

The normal process is for the evidence to be provided with the "notification" from ASADA (unofficially called the SCN - the term "show cause" occurs nowhere in the NAD Scheme or ASADA Act). The "notification", according to the NAD Scheme, is required to include the "details" and in positive test cases includes full evidence including the lab pack details with other detailed information.

The "notification" from ASADA is usually the only source of evidence that the player (or whoever) receives before receiving an infraction notice from the sporting body which is almost always accompanied by a suspension sanction. The ADRV Panel does not communicate with the player at all. At the end of the notification submission period the ADRVP makes its decision based on information provided to it by ASADA and any submission by the player. The ADRVP does not reveal to the player the evidence used to make its decision. If the player does not receive the evidence in the SCN he will not get to see it until the tribunal which will normally be after he has been suspended and even then it depends on the sporting body's own rules and decision whether or not the player ever sees the evidence.

The evidence is usually provided with the SCN.
Click to expand...
So what did Little say in your debriefing about what happened last night when he met with the AFL and the other seventeen clubs?

What line are you being told to peddle now?
 
ajb72 said:
Bobby's back.

Welcome back. I know personally I have missed you and I am sure others have too.
Click to expand...
I never left. The mods here seemed not to want posts which didn't support the foamer circle-jerk following the fed decision and deleted my posts.

Still rabbiting on about the process I see.

If the players of EFC are so confident in their knowledge they haven't "taken" anything banned, feel free to argue this at the relevant time. You see, it doesn't matter if it is via tribunal or via SCN or via ARVP, if you know and are confident then I am sure you wouldn't have much to fear from any of them.

But no piss around, whinge about process, about lack of evidence, about anything else, rather than do the 1 thing which is guaranteed to get you off if you are indeed innocent.
Click to expand...
That's a typical response from someone who is unable to address the issue. If I was charged with committing a murder "sometime between January and September 2012" I could do no more than deny it and it wouldn't make me any happier even if I was told that I would be able to see the evidence after I had been incarcerated.

Without the evidence being provided now, the players face being placed on the ROF, infracted, and suspended before they ever get a tribunal hearing at which the AFL may or may not condescend to reveal the evidence. The AFL code anyway accepts anything from ASADA is to be taken by its Tribunal as infallible:
16.2 An entry on the Register of Findings by ASADA under the ASADA Act will be recognised by the Tribunal as proof, and without the need for further enquiry, that the applicable procedures have been observed.
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This issue doesn't seem to have cropped up previously because most cases are the result of positive tests and the system is based on that. As I wrote, people usually get the detailed evidence with the notification and are able to offer precise refutation of such evidence before they are even placed on the RoF if the evidence is flawed. There is nothing in the NAD Scheme or the AFL code which enables the "participant" to see the evidence at any stage except the "notification" stage which "must" include the "details", according to the NAD Scheme.
 
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