Solved Gable Tostee - Tinder death
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At no stage in the transcript did she threaten to jump off the balcony. He threatened to throw her off, but that's it.
It's far more reasonable to expect her to maybe pound on the door and demand to be let in, or (as I suspect the intent of putting her outside was) just cool off and sober up, than try to escape by jumping off the balcony. That doesn't absolve him from responsibility in what ultimately happened, but to claim that a "reasonable" person's first thought upon putting her outside would be that she might/could/should/would jump is a bit far-fetched.
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Well it could be "a" thought, and it could be "foreseeable, but so could anything in hindsight, when you're removed from the situation. When you're in the moment, probably overheated due to a confrontation, possibly affected by alcohol or drugs, I'd imagine you wouldn't be assessing every single angle with a clear and rational head. Even still, it's pretty far-fetched IMO to think that he should expect that five minutes of being locked outside would lead the girl to jumping off the balcony.
I'm not trying to excuse him from responsibility here or say what he did was right. Yes, he put her in the situation which led to her jumping off the balcony, but I just don't think he could have reasonably expected her to do it, nor do I think he put her in that situation hoping that she would do it either.
The Old Dark Navy's
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Hell of a first post. You seem to have a lot more insight than most here. Not even going to try and play devil's advocate with that.
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Indeed.
If all that is accurate it certainly goes towards his character.
I will however play devils advocate..
If he has a history of being a creep and that can be used against it, can you then turn around and use the history of the victim as evidence she contributed to the situation?some of the evidence suggests that at times she was definitely the aggressor. My limited understanding of the law is that its very difficult to bring past actions into a case of either the victim or the assailant.
Cases like this are very interesting for a number of reasons.
1. They show how quickly the public loves a good witch hunt and burning at the stake before all information has come to light.
2. They highlight how invincible some people think they are
3. Surely they give parents of young girls and boys some sleepless nights of what awaits their children when they enter the world alone
4. For those of us exiting adolescence it helps you to reflect on how lucky you were at times AND ultimately how good a job your parents did at instilling a sense of morals in you.
- Jun 23, 2008
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Is it actually documented that he's autistic? Or is this just some wild conclusion that people are jumping to, based on his reported actions?
And no, "lack of empathy" does not equal autism. That just makes him a jerk.
Tostee apparently was diagnosed as somewhere on the high end of autism -- around the time he was nicked for counterfeiting.
sabre, I don't think it can at all be argued that Warriena wasn't acting in an aggressive manner, as she can be heard doing so several times on the recording.
However, what I think also must be taken into account is a/ Tostee's direct contribution to the state she was in at that point and his ongoing aggravation of a woman he helped to to get leglessly drunk - while he. himself (by audible admission), remained quite a bit more sober than she (a habitual behaviour for him on dates, according to local bar staff) and b/ the probability that Tostee was gaslighting his guest, so to speak, - which I'll try to make clear below.
Here's some facts - gleaned from witness statements and the audio transcript - which point to Tostee being both highly manipulative of women in general, and Warriena in particular, and which lead me to strongly suspect that the murder charge is accurate:
-- At several points Tostee can be heard speaking to an 'audience' (most clearly in that moment when Warriena goes to the bathroom) and manipulating his side of the conversation to make Warriena seem 'bad' ("where's my money?"). So it can be inferred that he is recording this portion of the evening not just for his own alleged 'loss of memory' or "In case she cries rape" (his words, re another incident) but also for the entertainment of others (for which he has a visible history, particularly of women he makes look foolish or bad).
-- He starts the recording after they've already had sex and spent a couple of hours together. He chooses to begin the recording at a point where Warriena is extremely drunk (which she tells him) and he is not (by his admission). I think it should be kept in mind that they met fairly early in the evening, around 8.30-9-ish and bought only a six pack of Toohey's Dry (a favourite drink of Warriena's) to take back to Tostee's home quite shortly after. We can't know for sure what they did or how much (or what) they drank for the next couple of hours, but clearly it was way more than a half dozen longnecks - so it's safe to assume Tostee supplied the rest. Tostee makes a song and dance about how things had been going nicely up to that point where he begins the recording, which is when things start to go south. He also can heard plying Warriena with glasses of his home-made moonshine (which she audibly rejects at couple of times) and encouraging her to drink, though she's already told him she is very drunk and doesn't want the drinks he keeps pouring.
Tostee can be heard to alternately rile up his very drunk guest, whom he has actively helped to become that way, and calm her down. Once she's calm, he very clearly proceeds to rile her up again - via actions which would make any woman feel powerless and scared. For example:
-- he won't untie her. he then calms her, and they talk.
-- he takes her phone (and tells her it's out in the balcony -- it's in his top pocket, we later discover). he then offers her something to eat.
-- once she threatens to call the police, he then becomes openly abusive and threatening, threatens to throw her out 'as-is', without all her clothes and other belongings.
-- tackles her to the floor (he is a very large man, she is tiny) at which point choking sounds are heard.
After this point, Warriena is forced out onto the balcony & is quite obviously terrified (she says 'no' more than 20 times) and begging to be allowed to go home. I don't think that counts as "aggressive" behaviour.
Note that in the latter parts of the incident, much of what Warriena has to say is clearly placating rather than aggressive, and that she barely speaks at all. Yet, Tostee's own language becomes more voluble and more violent.
And speaking of the balcony, I can't see it as any kind of coincidence that in the period shortly before Warriena died, Tostee a/ lied about the phone being on the balcony (and I have to ask -- why??), b/ raised the topic of death by falling off the balcony *twice* and c/ then forced her not out the front door, but onto the balcony he's so obsessed with...
I could go on and on.. though I'm already feeling bad for being long-winded. There's so much more to it that I could say which points to Tostee being much more sinister than he might at a glance appear. I'll wind it up by pointing out that you can see his 'story' of how Warriena came to be on the balcony evolving as he speaks to his dad.. first he "forced" her, then he "chucked her out" there, then "she ran" onto the balcony after he tackled her to the floor (which isn't true, the audio makes this clear). Making himself progressively more blameless as he goes.. yet claims "I can't remember". Righty-o.
What a scumbag. I hope all this gets addressed in court, I really do. I'm actually not sure how much of his past behaviour they can use, but I think there's enough in the recording to show how manipulative he was being, if not proof of him engineering the whole event like he's playing out a fantasy script.
Can't argue with you, re your last points there. I think this deffo is a cautionary tale.
sabre, I don't think it can at all be argued that Warriena wasn't acting in an aggressive manner, as she can be heard doing so several times on the recording.
However, what I think also must be taken into account is a/ Tostee's direct contribution to the state she was in at that point and his ongoing aggravation of a woman he helped to to get leglessly drunk - while he. himself (by audible admission), remained quite a bit more sober than she (a habitual behaviour for him on dates, according to local bar staff) and b/ the probability that Tostee was gaslighting his guest, so to speak, - which I'll try to make clear below.
Here's some facts - gleaned from witness statements and the audio transcript - which point to Tostee being both highly manipulative of women in general, and Warriena in particular, and which lead me to strongly suspect that the murder charge is accurate:
-- At several points Tostee can be heard speaking to an 'audience' (most clearly in that moment when Warriena goes to the bathroom) and manipulating his side of the conversation to make Warriena seem 'bad' ("where's my money?"). So it can be inferred that he is recording this portion of the evening not just for his own alleged 'loss of memory' or "In case she cries rape" (his words, re another incident) but also for the entertainment of others (for which he has a visible history, particularly of women he makes look foolish or bad).
-- He starts the recording after they've already had sex and spent a couple of hours together. He chooses to begin the recording at a point where Warriena is extremely drunk (which she tells him) and he is not (by his admission). I think it should be kept in mind that they met fairly early in the evening, around 8.30-9-ish and bought only a six pack of Toohey's Dry (a favourite drink of Warriena's) to take back to Tostee's home quite shortly after. We can't know for sure what they did or how much (or what) they drank for the next couple of hours, but clearly it was way more than a half dozen longnecks - so it's safe to assume Tostee supplied the rest. Tostee makes a song and dance about how things had been going nicely up to that point where he begins the recording, which is when things start to go south. He also can heard plying Warriena with glasses of his home-made moonshine (which she audibly rejects at couple of times) and encouraging her to drink, though she's already told him she is very drunk and doesn't want the drinks he keeps pouring.
Tostee can be heard to alternately rile up his very drunk guest, whom he has actively helped to become that way, and calm her down. Once she's calm, he very clearly proceeds to rile her up again - via actions which would make any woman feel powerless and scared. For example:
-- he won't untie her. he then calms her, and they talk.
-- he takes her phone (and tells her it's out in the balcony -- it's in his top pocket, we later discover). he then offers her something to eat.
-- once she threatens to call the police, he then becomes openly abusive and threatening, threatens to throw her out 'as-is', without all her clothes and other belongings.
-- tackles her to the floor (he is a very large man, she is tiny) at which point choking sounds are heard.
After this point, Warriena is forced out onto the balcony & is quite obviously terrified (she says 'no' more than 20 times) and begging to be allowed to go home. I don't think that counts as "aggressive" behaviour.
Note that in the latter parts of the incident, much of what Warriena has to say is clearly placating rather than aggressive, and that she barely speaks at all. Yet, Tostee's own language becomes more voluble and more violent.
And speaking of the balcony, I can't see it as any kind of coincidence that in the period shortly before Warriena died, Tostee a/ lied about the phone being on the balcony (and I have to ask -- why??), b/ raised the topic of death by falling off the balcony *twice* and c/ then forced her not out the front door, but onto the balcony he's so obsessed with...
I could go on and on.. though I'm already feeling bad for being long-winded. There's so much more to it that I could say which points to Tostee being much more sinister than he might at a glance appear. I'll wind it up by pointing out that you can see his 'story' of how Warriena came to be on the balcony evolving as he speaks to his dad.. first he "forced" her, then he "chucked her out" there, then "she ran" onto the balcony after he tackled her to the floor (which isn't true, the audio makes this clear). Making himself progressively more blameless as he goes.. yet claims "I can't remember". Righty-o.
What a scumbag. I hope all this gets addressed in court, I really do. I'm actually not sure how much of his past behaviour they can use, but I think there's enough in the recording to show how manipulative he was being, if not proof of him engineering the whole event like he's playing out a fantasy script.
Can't argue with you, re your last points there. I think this deffo is a cautionary tale.
The Coup
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Great posts ausgirl , I was trying to explain the relevance of him being banned from nightclubs on the GC earlier but didn't have as much of a background to his exact behaviour (the remaining sober and preying on the drunkest girls thing I could have guessed - its straight from the script of that particular online community).
Just reading the transcript you can see he's predatory and aggressive towards women, and then you factor in the history of not borderline but completely creepy behaviour and other girls saying he got too physical etc. and like you said, the end of the recording makes it clear he's fantasising about her death from the balcony and that she's terrified, he then stops her from leaving by force.
It looks suss as * on what is publicly available.
Just reading the transcript you can see he's predatory and aggressive towards women, and then you factor in the history of not borderline but completely creepy behaviour and other girls saying he got too physical etc. and like you said, the end of the recording makes it clear he's fantasising about her death from the balcony and that she's terrified, he then stops her from leaving by force.
It looks suss as * on what is publicly available.
Just an update on some info.
Regarding the autism thing.. Apparently, Tostee was said to have 'autistic tendencies', whatever that means, by his lawyer during court proceedings over his counterfeiting charge. I smell trumped-up diagnosis. Autism seems to be the new ADHD that way.. and there's no-one saying he's definitely on the spectrum, via a proper diagnosis.
Tostee recently sacked his lawyer and hired civil rights frontman Terry O'Gorman, who'd been making a lot of noise about how the nasty media was trampling poor Gable's chances of a fair trial by legally purchasing bail documents and publishing them.
Uggggh. Remember when O'Gorman stuck up for poor old Dennis Ferguson, the revolting rapey child abductor? I sure do. Colour me unsurprised that he's glommed onto another yet another creep in his quest to make sure creeps are civilly protected, and thereby (somehow, somewhere in the back of O'Gorman's mind and nowhere else) make Australia a better place. :\
Regarding the autism thing.. Apparently, Tostee was said to have 'autistic tendencies', whatever that means, by his lawyer during court proceedings over his counterfeiting charge. I smell trumped-up diagnosis. Autism seems to be the new ADHD that way.. and there's no-one saying he's definitely on the spectrum, via a proper diagnosis.
Tostee recently sacked his lawyer and hired civil rights frontman Terry O'Gorman, who'd been making a lot of noise about how the nasty media was trampling poor Gable's chances of a fair trial by legally purchasing bail documents and publishing them.
Uggggh. Remember when O'Gorman stuck up for poor old Dennis Ferguson, the revolting rapey child abductor? I sure do. Colour me unsurprised that he's glommed onto another yet another creep in his quest to make sure creeps are civilly protected, and thereby (somehow, somewhere in the back of O'Gorman's mind and nowhere else) make Australia a better place. :\
To play devils advocate, defense lawyers are critical in the Australian system. It's unsavory, but creeps need defending.
The more concerning part of your post is that you believe the medical consultants have been corrupted and will make up an disorder and lie to the court about it.
The more concerning part of your post is that you believe the medical consultants have been corrupted and will make up an disorder and lie to the court about it.
ffs, did I SAY I thought doctors were lying in court? I said his LAWYER claimed he had "autistic tendencies" -- which ANYone can claim, yannow? Because "tendencies" is NOT a diagnosis. And it's not so hard to imagine a lawyer telling porky pies, is it. Or some overpaid therapist over-diagnosing a kid, now you mention it. But "tendencies" is not how a proper diagnosis of autism would be phrased, so I'm a bit sus on whether there was one, or it's just a claim that was made without medical backup. Is the meaning of what I actually said.
What I *did* infer is that 'spectrum' diagnosis is kind of overdone these days, as ADHD used to be, and I got that snip of info from a pal who's a clinical psychologist.
As for O'Gorman - yeah, I have no problem with defense lawyers. There's just something skeezy about that particular one, and his civil rights for pedos etc.It seems like they're taking aim at technicalities, which irks me as well.
What I *did* infer is that 'spectrum' diagnosis is kind of overdone these days, as ADHD used to be, and I got that snip of info from a pal who's a clinical psychologist.
As for O'Gorman - yeah, I have no problem with defense lawyers. There's just something skeezy about that particular one, and his civil rights for pedos etc.It seems like they're taking aim at technicalities, which irks me as well.
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All good. Not having a go at you. You seem well read on the case. I simply thought from your above post that you thought the diagnosis was suspicious. I guess it will be discussed if their was not an official diagnosis.
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TBH, there'd be a fair number of "normal" people who appear to have "Autistic tendencies", if you get a list of symptoms and try and make them fit certain behaviours well enough. It doesn't mean they're actually Autistic.
I'd say there'd be a fair number of young blokes who are horny and just after sex doing that sort of thing at bars and clubs every weekend. That's not to say it's right or should be dismissed as acceptable behaviour, but it doesn't necessarily make them murderers or mean that they have the intent to kill, either. It really is a bit of a logical leap, and kind of fitting the circumstances to a certain diagnosis, so to speak.
I really do think this was an unfortunate accident. Yes, he might be a "creep", and as I've said already, yes, he put her in the situation which led to her jumping/falling off the balcony, but I just don't think he could have reasonably expected her to do it, nor do I think he put her in that situation hoping that she would do it either. It's hard to prove from the evidence presented (without logical leaping and profiling) that he plotted for or intended for her to die. I think some form of manslaughter would be the appropriate charge, and from what's been presented, you could say he's guilty of that. As to whether he will get convicted, NFI TBH.
I'd say there'd be a fair number of young blokes who are horny and just after sex doing that sort of thing at bars and clubs every weekend. That's not to say it's right or should be dismissed as acceptable behaviour, but it doesn't necessarily make them murderers or mean that they have the intent to kill, either. It really is a bit of a logical leap, and kind of fitting the circumstances to a certain diagnosis, so to speak.
I really do think this was an unfortunate accident. Yes, he might be a "creep", and as I've said already, yes, he put her in the situation which led to her jumping/falling off the balcony, but I just don't think he could have reasonably expected her to do it, nor do I think he put her in that situation hoping that she would do it either. It's hard to prove from the evidence presented (without logical leaping and profiling) that he plotted for or intended for her to die. I think some form of manslaughter would be the appropriate charge, and from what's been presented, you could say he's guilty of that. As to whether he will get convicted, NFI TBH.
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The case has been adjourned to Jan 12th 2015
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...urned-until-2015/story-fn3dxiwe-1227086344734
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...urned-until-2015/story-fn3dxiwe-1227086344734
Lolwut
Its ethically questionable but its not rape if its consensual. Bit of a stretch to state hes a rapist when there is no evidence of him sleeping with any female without their consent
- Jun 23, 2008
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Well then there's thousands of "rapists" at bars and clubs every weekend around Australia.
What if a girl's main "tactic" for picking up is "getting loose" herself? Is she then "inviting rape"?
Err, yes it would.
Being horny and just wanting sex doesn't mean you're willing or able to kill someone.
Really, we're getting a bit distorted here, aren't we?
Lol you have some issues
Where is the evidence he had sex with a girl without consent?
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