No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[60sbomber]

yeah but if the AFL are going to err on one side or the other it will be in being more lenient to the players. But I don't think there'll be any erring frankly. The AFL tribunal is an independent body that must follow the correct procedure. I can't see how they can not do that.

But, if the hearings are closed, we will never know, and be able to judge, whether or not they have followed the correct procedure and reached a fair outcome based on the evidence, rather than some AFL imposed outcome,.
That, in itself, is a strong reason why the hearings should be open.

 

[boncer34]

yeah but if the AFL are going to err on one side or the other it will be in being more lenient to the players. But I don't think there'll be any erring frankly. The AFL tribunal is an independent body that must follow the correct procedure. I can't see how they can not do that.

Surely your taking the piss?

 

[letstayunited]

As sort of a side issue, would I be correct in assuming Caroline Wilson doesn't have a (real) twitter account?

 

[Doss]

As sort of a side issue, would I be correct in assuming Caroline Wilson doesn't have a (real) twitter account?

You would be indeed correct.

 

[pepsi]

On a side note, the scum supporters really have nothing else to live for. Their thread on this whole thing is almost up to 400 pages. 10000 posts that has nothing to do with their team (except apparently we broke Carrazzo ac joint cos of dem drugs!)

* carlton.

 

[letstayunited]

You would be indeed correct.

Should have known i guess. Caro's twitter account would be untenable - just like everyone's jobs (according to her)

 

[Matthew_Lloyd]

On a side note, the scum supporters really have nothing else to live for. Their thread on this whole thing is almost up to 400 pages. 10000 posts that has nothing to do with their team (except apparently we broke Carrazzo ac joint cos of dem drugs!)

**** carlton.

Do you blame them? If our list was as s**t and doomed as their one is, I'd try and avoid talking about it too

 

[yaco55]

I don't think that ASADA are the bad guys here and I don't think any of us want them disbanded. They are a government agency charged with the duty of protecting the integrity in sports in terms of drug use. All they do is enforce the ASADA act which is a bill of law. I totally agree that he act is outdated and shortsighted but these guys are just doing their jobs.

ASADA don't determine guilt, they simply apply a process. It does not matter if ASADA think your players are guilty or not, they don't get to play god. All they do is apply their statute. The SC Notices were delivered because there is some possibility that that banned substances may have been taken. ASADA are bound by their own statute to issue those notices. Guilt or otherwise is determined by others. I think the one area that is really, really murky is offering deals. I don't understand this and I wonder if this is the first instance of such "deals" in any WADA jurisdiction? To me this is really ethically challenged and seems a bit like the police offering plea-bargains which they never do - that is the role of the DPP because it seems so open to corruption. Surely a third party needs to be responsible for offering any such deals?

First - WADA does deals every day of the week - As do the national ASADA's - And this will become more in vogue with intelligence based cases.

I differ with you regarding ASADA - ASADA's case is flimsy and circumstantial, and unless there is a smoking gun, which everyone has been seeking for 20 months, there is no reason to bring the case forward - You have denials from the players and officials that TB4 was used, player forms listed Thymosin, ASADA charged every player who had an injection - And the fact is that players were on different programs - ASADA could possibly may have case if they charged the 12 to 14 players who had thymosin written on their forms - But to randomly choose and charge 34 players who received injections makes no sense at all - I stand by my opinion that ASADA should be disbanded.

 

[yaco55]

Have no sympathy for any abuse that Panahi cops on twitter - There is no rule that says you must be on twitter - Maybe Panahi should take a leaf from Caro who has no twitter account.

Anyway twitter is just another excuse for the Panahi's of this world ( and there are many ) to be drama queens and evoke sympathy from the masses.

 

[rines]

Rumours swirling that there is 'general agreement' that players will seek to accept ADRVP and proceed straight to tribunal. AFL has mooted tribunal cases to start third week of November. Players can opt for more time if required however lawyers are confident that defence is ready.. no new information contained in show cause letters and no smoking gun.

Also circulating that if one hearing is 'successful' to have a player cleared.. then remaining players could be heard in a 'group' case. Essentially ending the whole mess in one go. If one player is found guilty, then all players will contest hearings individually.

Show cause notices were issues to any individual who received any injection, or signed a consent form agreeing to an injection... ASADA contending that any needle, on any day, *could* have been TB4.

If this is true.. the whole thing is worse than I thought. Bit like one student smuggling in a bottle of Vodka.. and the Principal suspending every student who admits to having any drink during the dance because it *could* have been spiked.. but on an epic, major and career threatening scale!!

There is no evidence that TB4 was on EFC property. There is no evidence that EFC paid for, or ordered, TB4. So that is good news.

I didn't have a lot of respect left for ASADA but I now have none. Zero. Zilch. What a clusterfark.

 

[yaco55]

Rines

What's your take if players are found guilty ?

And this is assuming no deals ?

I am guessing 6 to 12 months.

 

[Go_Blues!]

First - WADA does deals every day of the week - As do the national ASADA's - And this will become more in vogue with intelligence based cases.

I differ with you regarding ASADA - ASADA's case is flimsy and circumstantial, and unless there is a smoking gun, which everyone has been seeking for 20 months, there is no reason to bring the case forward - You have denials from the players and officials that TB4 was used, player forms listed Thymosin, ASADA charged every player who had an injection - And the fact is that players were on different programs - ASADA could possibly may have case if they charged the 12 to 14 players who had thymosin written on their forms - But to randomly choose and charge 34 players who received injections makes no sense at all - I stand by my opinion that ASADA should be disbanded.

Thanks for that comment about WADA jurisdictions doing deals frequently. I was not aware of that.

 

[rumply]

ASADA may call on Shane Charter and Nima Alavi at AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal
http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/as...idoping-tribunal/story-fndv8gad-1227097820211

CONVICTED drug trafficker Shane Charter and compound pharmacist Nima Alavi will likely be asked to give evidence in person at any AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal hearing of charges against current and former Essendon players.

The 32 players being represented by the AFL Players’ Association-led legal team will be advised this week to not answer the detailed ASADA show cause notices reissued by ASADA last Friday, in a bid to move the cases to the tribunal to fight the allegations.

While a group meeting of affected players has not yet been held, there has so far been unanimous support for the strategy from the players.

Their lawyers have reviewed more than 12,000 pages of evidence in the new notices, which lay out a circumstantial case in the style of a police brief that the players were administered with the banned substance Thymosin beta-4 during the 2012 supplements program at the club.

The case relies heavily on evidence given to ASADA by Charter and Alavi in interviews, as well as text messages between Charter and former Bombers sports scientist Stephen Dank, who has not been interviewed by ASADA.

It is understood the individually tailored notices — described by ASADA boss Ben McDevitt as “comprehensive and compelling” run to about 100 pages of summary for each player, as well as information that is common to all of them.

There is little information in the notices not already known. Because of the reliance on witness statements from Charter and Alavi, it is believed player lawyers would want to scrutinise their accounts under cross examination if the cases reach a tribunal.

The AFL has no power to compel Charter or Alavi to attend, and it would likely be up to ASADA to produce them as witnesses. With the players unlikely to respond to show cause notices, the independent Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel will review the cases soon after the response period expires on Friday week.

Should it find a possibility of a rule violation, it would put player details on the Register of Findings and move the case back into the AFL’s sphere.

AFL general counsel Andrew Dillon will review the evidence against the players and decide whether to issue infraction notices.

An Anti-Doping Tribunal chaired by David Jones would be rounded out by a lawyer and medical doctor with experience in the anti-doping sphere.

It is believed the common evidence could be dealt with by the tribunal in one hearing, while other aspects of the players cases may have to be heard individually. The tribunal must find to its “comfortable satisfaction” that an anti-doping rule has been breached for the players to be found guilty.

Richard Ings ‏@ringsau
@MaguidhirP I don't believe ASADA can compel an appearance on the witness stand at an AFL tribunal. Could get very interesting fast
Richard Ings ‏@ringsau
@dansaysyes I have read the NAD and ASADA can compel interview but I can't see it can compel testimony.



So it appears the AFL & ASADA cannot compel Charters &/or Alavi to attend the Anti-Doping Tribunal, meaning the players legal team will be not be able cross examine the evidence they gave in interviews to ASADA.

So valid questions that ASADA may not have asked but player lawyers would & should, cannot now be asked to clarify or attack their evidence?? The tribunal is simply supposed to reply on what ASADA gathered from these two fine upstanding citizens??

Someone please tell me I am missing something...

 

[kfc1]

ASADA may call on Shane Charter and Nima Alavi at AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal
http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/as...idoping-tribunal/story-fndv8gad-1227097820211



Richard Ings ‏@ringsau 10h10 hours ago
@MaguidhirP I don't believe ASADA can compel an appearance on the witness stand at an AFL tribunal. Could get very interesting fast


So it appears the AFL & ASADA cannot compel Charters &/or Alavi to attend the Anti-Doping Tribunal, meaning the players legal team will be not be able cross examine the evidence they gave in interviews to ASADA.

So valid questions that ASADA may not have asked but player lawyers would & should, cannot now be asked to clarify or attack their evidence?? The tribunal is simply supposed to reply on what ASADA gathered from these two fine upstanding citizens??

Someone please tell me I am missing something...

If Alavi and Charters dont turn up their statements should not be considered by the tribunal

 

[Pweter]

If Alavi and Charters dont turn up their statements should not be considered by the tribunal

If the statements are considered without either being witnesses at the hearing, the lawyers just need to cut their testimony to shreds with respect to how it all ties together to allegedly prove doping occured. Cast enough doubt over it such that any reasonable person would shake their head in disbelief as to why you'd even bother including the testimony.

 

[SizzleChest]

Alavi's 7:30 interview will get a run at the tribunal.

LOUISE MILLIGAN: So to this day, you don't know really what was in those vials.
NIMA ALAVI: No, I don't.
LOUISE MILLIGAN: And you don't know whether they went to Essendon.
NIMA ALAVI: I don't, no.

 

[rumply]

Richard Ings ‏@ringsau 26m26 minutes ago
@roadagain65 @dansaysyes ASADA can't introduce witness evidence into testimony without player's having an opportunity to cross examine.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Alavi's 7:30 interview will get a run at the tribunal.

LOUISE MILLIGAN: So to this day, you don't know really what was in those vials.
NIMA ALAVI: No, I don't.
LOUISE MILLIGAN: And you don't know whether they went to Essendon.
NIMA ALAVI: I don't, no.

How can Asada use Nima Alavi as a witness when he bloody doesn't know? you make me laugh Salada.

 

[rumply]

Which raise the question for e.g., what if Alavi refuses to attend due to what he perceives as further bad publicity for his business & cannot be compelled to attend, does ASADA's case start to unravel at the seams?

I should add I reckon he will attend as he has, like Charters, made deals to help mitigate 'other issues' but wtf do I know...

 

[rines]

How can Asada use Alavi as a witness when he bloody doesn't know.

Because it is vibe of the thing.. just mabo.. and the vibe

 

[kfc1]

Because it is vibe of the thing.. just mabo.. and the vibe

Lionel Hutz: Don't worry, Homer. I have a fool proof strategy to get you out of here: surprise witnesses, each more surprising than the last. I tell you, the judge won't know what hit him!

 

[rines]

Which raise the question for e.g., what if Alavi refuses to attend due to what he perceives as further bad publicity for his business & cannot be compelled to attend, does ASADA's case start to unravel at the seams?

Their 'case' is already unravelling at the seams.. but I would think if he doesn't turn up.. it is further stuffed.. but equally if he turns up and says "I don't know what was in the vials and I don't know where they went" it is also stuffed.

Remembering that ASADA has to demonstrate to 'comfortable satisfaction' that each player was doped.. a witness who 'doesn't know' is hardly compelling.

 

[Jade]

Rines

What's your take if players are found guilty ?

And this is assuming no deals ?

I am guessing 6 to 12 months.

I'm guessing CAS.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Because it is vibe of the thing.. just mabo.. and the vibe

True

Sounds like their whole case is based on hunches and guesses i hope the lawyers blow their flimsy case apart.

 

[rines]

Rines

What's your take if players are found guilty ?

And this is assuming no deals ?

I am guessing 6 to 12 months.

If they are found guilty then my guess would be 6 month bans, backdated to the date of the last game. So in effect 2 rounds of the 2015 season.

The bigger issue would be loss of reputation, suing the club and all that goes with it.

I also think the players would appeal immediately to CAS.