Gough Whitlam: Messiah or Very Naughty Boy?

Messiah or Very Naughty Boy?

  • Messiah

    Votes: 37 72.5%
  • Very Naughty Boy

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • What the?

    Votes: 7 13.7%

  • Total voters
    51

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Todman

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 7, 2004
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Greg Sheridan:

...sentimentality, and the overwhelming power of the Labor myth-making machine, should not blind us to the central fact of Whitlam: he was the worst prime minister in our history…

His foreign policy record was appalling, although it is here that the myth-makers have worked hardest because his economic record was even worse.

Whitlam acted with conspicuous cruelty towards the Vietnamese who had worked with Australian forces and Australian diplomats during the war between South Vietnam and North Vietnam.


His foreign minister, Don Willessee, wanted him to bring some of these people to Australia at the fall of Saigon in April 1975. Whitlam told him: “I’m not having these f..king Vietnamese Balts coming into the country with their religious and political prejudices against us."…


More important than what Whitlam said was what he did. Australian transport planes left Saigon with rows of empty seats while those who had helped us there were left to their fate in the vast gulag of re-education camps the communists set up after their victory.

Or they were left to a worse fate.

Whitlam’s myth-makers are so impervious to the facts that they often claim his visit to China as opposition leader was a breakthrough in opening China to the west. In fact for most of the preceding years numerous Western nations in Europe had full diplomatic relations with mainland China.

...the US took some years after de facto recognition to achieve formal recognition. This is because the Americans were tough negotiators and ... would not recognise Beijing in a way that gave it licence to conquer Taiwan, which is de facto independent but which Beijing considers a renegade province.

Harvard scholar Ross Terrill argues that Whitlam badly botched the negotiations with Beijing because he was desperate to afford recognition straight away. As a result he agreed to conditions that were punitive of Australian interests in Taiwan and effectively sold out the interests of Taiwanese people altogether.

Most of Whitlam’s foreign policy decisions were wrong in principle and turned out badly in practice. Entirely gratuitously, he extended formal diplomatic recognition of Soviet sovereignty over the Baltic states…

The two most disgraceful episodes of Whitlam’s leadership concerned the Middle East. Most people remember the loans affair, but an even greater disgrace concerned Whitlam’s efforts to raise election funds for the ALP in 1975 from the Iraqi government.
 

Nikita Blue

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 25, 2003
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Surprise surprise Tony Abbott's best mate and head cheerleader chimes in.

This letter in today's Age says it better than I can.

There is a case for saying that since his government all Australian politics has been about dismantling his achievements. He was that big.
 

Todman

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 7, 2004
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Whitlam's government and policies released the inflation genie and it took twenty five years to put him back in the bottle.
Whitlam's government and policies sent unemployment through the roof and it took thirty years to achieve full employment again.
 
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Todman

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 7, 2004
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Sorry I know this thread is about Gough but above is absolute rubbish

Thatcher not only supported Pinochet she did everything she possibly could to help him evade answering for his crimes. Forget the coup which overthrew the democratic government of Allende and the mass torture, rape and murder of Chileans - what did she have to say Thank you for bringing democracy to Chile:rolleyes:

Pinochet killed less people and what Allende was planning to do. Allende had a hitlist of 15,000 that his Cuban born militia would round up and put against the wall. Allende was one day away from releasing his death squads when Pinochet with the following orders from the Parliament staged his coup.
 
Ha, Ha, saw him on the Drum.
So all of Whitlam's 3 and a bit years were about how badly he thought about the Vietnamese and botching negotiations with China.
Oh, well if working for the OZ, need to write something. What a sad state of affairs our media is.

Did the article mention anything about the good things he did or did you just selectively, pick out the parts that suited you?

If Whitlam did say what Willessee claims, not dis-similar to Morrison's thinking on AS.

Now if they had concentrated on the fact that after 23 years in the wilderness and that few of his Ministers had experience in handling finances or that they didn't trust the Public Service enough to take advice, or about a couple of poor Ministers (and more about the loan affair) then that may be worth reading as it has some basis in fact.

The rest is just rubbish.
 
Feb 18, 2003
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The contrast to the person who followed is stark. He will be remembered only for a) sec 45d, b) ending death duties and c) cosying up to Mugabe.

A Gillardesque failure who unlike Gough is a mere footnote to Australian history.

Probably the fairest feeling expressed on Fraser I've read so far.
 

carnthemlions

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Apr 19, 2012
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Well then you don't understand if that's what you think. Nothing to do with people all getting along at all. It's about letting people live their lives as they choose without interference from other individuals and Governments so long as they do it without affecting other people.




We're not naive at all. We know there's no hope at all of the vast majority people taking complete responsibility for their own lives.

But hey, if the socialists can dream of their perfect world that will never happen then so can we.



You seemed rather confused. Seems your relating what you think is the Libertarian views to those of the present Tea Party which was hijacked by certain people who are not Libertarians.

The Libertarian movement rejects the likes of the Tea Party.

There is only one choice. Live life how you wish and do it and in a manner which does not affect others
I'm afraid that's impossible. Who would would enforce that?
Anyway, you've admitted that it's a fantasy. Good, that's the first step...
Greg Sheridan:

...sentimentality, and the overwhelming power of the Labor myth-making machine, should not blind us to the central fact of Whitlam: he was the worst prime minister in our history…

His foreign policy record was appalling, although it is here that the myth-makers have worked hardest because his economic record was even worse.

Whitlam acted with conspicuous cruelty towards the Vietnamese who had worked with Australian forces and Australian diplomats during the war between South Vietnam and North Vietnam.


His foreign minister, Don Willessee, wanted him to bring some of these people to Australia at the fall of Saigon in April 1975. Whitlam told him: “I’m not having these f..king Vietnamese Balts coming into the country with their religious and political prejudices against us."…


More important than what Whitlam said was what he did. Australian transport planes left Saigon with rows of empty seats while those who had helped us there were left to their fate in the vast gulag of re-education camps the communists set up after their victory.

Or they were left to a worse fate.

Whitlam’s myth-makers are so impervious to the facts that they often claim his visit to China as opposition leader was a breakthrough in opening China to the west. In fact for most of the preceding years numerous Western nations in Europe had full diplomatic relations with mainland China.

...the US took some years after de facto recognition to achieve formal recognition. This is because the Americans were tough negotiators and ... would not recognise Beijing in a way that gave it licence to conquer Taiwan, which is de facto independent but which Beijing considers a renegade province.

Harvard scholar Ross Terrill argues that Whitlam badly botched the negotiations with Beijing because he was desperate to afford recognition straight away. As a result he agreed to conditions that were punitive of Australian interests in Taiwan and effectively sold out the interests of Taiwanese people altogether.

Most of Whitlam’s foreign policy decisions were wrong in principle and turned out badly in practice. Entirely gratuitously, he extended formal diplomatic recognition of Soviet sovereignty over the Baltic states…

The two most disgraceful episodes of Whitlam’s leadership concerned the Middle East. Most people remember the loans affair, but an even greater disgrace concerned Whitlam’s efforts to raise election funds for the ALP in 1975 from the Iraqi government.
Yes, Greg Sheridan. lol

Pinochet killed less people and what Allende was planning to do. Allende had a hitlist of 15,000 that his Cuban born militia would round up and put against the wall. Allende was one day away from releasing his death squads when Pinochet with the following orders from the Parliament staged his coup.
Are you defending Pinochet? I'd certainly hope you aren't.
 

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Gus Poyet

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I'm afraid that's impossible. Who would would enforce that?
Anyway, you've admitted that it's a fantasy. Good, that's the first step...

At least I admit it. When will the "we're all equal" clowns admit they are dreaming also?
 

louismaxwell

Team Captain
Sep 26, 2014
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Why did Gough encourage the Indonesians to takeover east timor, and 200,000 lives were lost , and Gough didn't utter a word of rebuke to the Indonesians or impose sanctions and cut of all diplomatic relations. This disgraceful behaviour of gough will always cast a great pall on goughs legacy that he could just turn a blind eye to the murder of 200,000 people.
 

Nikita Blue

Norm Smith Medallist
Jun 25, 2003
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Pinochet killed less people and what Allende was planning to do. Allende had a hitlist of 15,000 that his Cuban born militia would round up and put against the wall. Allende was one day away from releasing his death squads when Pinochet with the following orders from the Parliament staged his coup.

Oh dear I would ask you to provide evidence of this lunacy but I don't want to derail the thread.

Back to Gough - I think if anything the last day or so has taught us is that his legacy is safe despite all attempts from Murdoch minnows to undermine it.
 

Gus Poyet

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Blood on your hands Gus...would be the worst policy outcome anyon e would want given the numbers of people screwed over.

Not on my hands. I pay for my health insurance.

That's what grown ups do.They take responsibility for their own lives.
 

pokerspiv

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Jun 23, 2013
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Did the article mention anything about the good things he did or did you just selectively, pick out the parts that suited you?

He did a lot of good things. He also did a lot of bad things. He did a lot of things.

The more things a politicians does, the worse they generally are.

I want Calvin Coolidge back,
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Greg Sheridan:

...sentimentality, and the overwhelming power of the Labor myth-making machine, should not blind us to the central fact of Whitlam: he was the worst prime minister in our history…

His foreign policy record was appalling, although it is here that the myth-makers have worked hardest because his economic record was even worse.


The two most disgraceful episodes of Whitlam’s leadership concerned the Middle East. Most people remember the loans affair, but an even greater disgrace concerned Whitlam’s efforts to raise election funds for the ALP in 1975 from the Iraqi government.

Whitlam was a man of his times, & very charismatic to boot. Its very easy to make negative comment on some things & attribute all the occurrances of the time as 'his fault'. The effecys of the 'Oil crisis', like the GFC are conveniently ignored.

Australia at the time needed a real kick in the arse. He saw the absolute injustices in our society. Others did too. He attacked everything with a relish. He envisaged a fairer society. Equality of opportunity is what he saw. Gough didnt start this current middle class welfare problem we have now.

We are better for universal health care, We are better for the educational opportunities we received. That more than anything changed our economy & nation for the better.
Any 'fair' & happy society needs to allow for social mobility. That is that you dont get born into privilege, you work for it. The Education system is the mechanism for that. I & other kids from 'working class' backgrounds are forever grateful for his vision.

No he was no saint & yes he had his own faults. So he was human after all. But at least he saw injustice & believed in the fair go & an independent nation. Again, he was a product of his time. Judge him by that.
You can moan all you like but he did what he did, warts & all.

You should spend as much time looking at the forces that worked against him. You might be a bit more forgiving. He fought for the country in WW2, he fought for freedom, & a strong independent nation. A lot of others didn't/dont. They seem happy to 'fight' for someone, something else.
 

Riseupaustralia

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Oct 12, 2014
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Good to see that the ruling class are holding onto their hatred of all things Gough so closely after 45 years.

One can only imagine, with great horror, where this country would be now if McMahon won the election and Australia continued in the slumber of the Menzies era.

Born to rule really is imprinted on some peoples DNA.
 

pokerspiv

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2013
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And yet Gough ruled with a heavier hand than any Australian prime minister before or since.

Some people just enjoy being ruled I guess.

Personally I just wish politicians would * off and leave me alone.
 

Riseupaustralia

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Oct 12, 2014
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And yet Gough ruled with a heavier hand than any Australian prime minister before or since.

Some people just enjoy being ruled I guess.

Personally I just wish politicians would **** off and leave me alone.

LOL.

Yeah, 18 year old kids couldn't vote but could get forcibly conscripted so their head could be blown off in South Vietnam.

Gays had to hide.

Aboriginals were collectively swept under the carpet.

etc, etc, etc.

Who was ruling with a heavy hand again?
 
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