List Mgmt. Mitch Brown and Joel Hamling delisted with Hunt

[Vdubs]

Mark Blake was selected ahead of him. Ottens and Blake was the ruck combo we went into finals with. King was at St. Kilda and West wasn't really in the picture at that point.

Given how things worked out with Blake and how our ruck situation is now, it would've been nice to have kept Mumford, but we used the pick we got for him on Duncan, so I guess it kind of worked out okay.

Duncan is definitely a great concession for Mumford.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It's very, very simple.

I don't know how Hamling can be defended as a 'project' player, when the guy we took after him has been a fixture in the senior side the last 2 seasons.

It's not a great comparison, not all players are the same and some are drafted with the idea to make early impact, some aren't.

Kersten was very well performed at junior level and also played WAFL footy as a 17 yo and was widely touted as a top 15 pick until injury in his draft year.

Hamling by contrast was from Broome, played mainly colts footy (and most of it out of position in the ruck because his team lacked talls) and by his own admission has very little exposure to professional training environments like Kersten did.

Kersten was clearly much more ready, and Hamling was clearly drafted as a project player. You can't compare one to the other, or judge Hamling on the basis of drafting Kersten.

As a list manager you draft multiple players every year and you have different short term expectations for each of them.

 

[Vdubs]

Is Hamling one of the few players to have been on a list 3 years and never played a single senior game before delisting?

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Catman has a point. There doesn't appear to be much afterwards in the 2011 draft. 32 was our first pick by virtue of being premiers, the introduction of GWS and compensation picks ahead of us. Wells got a pick wrong, not as monumentally bad as Hawthorn with Thorp but wrong nonetheless, not the first time he's got one wrong and it won't be the last time either.

We also traded out of the first round for two early second rounders.

I can't agree about Pods and King, Pods has just played a role at Adelaide whilst King was no more than a shadow of his 2000-2002 self at the Saints.

Pods was also arguably not even playing his role in the second half of his last season at Geelong. He was, in simple terms, pretty rubbish over that stretch, especially when you consider how much we needed him to step up, with Hawkins battling. He became a regular at Adelaide and essentially rejuvenated his career. He also took more contested marks and marks inside 50 per game and kicked about the same percentage of his team's goals.

As for King, well, if the bar for 'done well' is B&Fs and AAs, I guess his form in the early 00s, before he was beset by multiple injuries would be relevant. Personally, I'd look at what he did in his first couple of years at St Kilda, compared to his last few years at Geelong, as well as the fact that he played 6 of his 16 career finals for the Saints. So, yes, I'd say he did pretty well for St Kilda.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Is Hamling one of the few players to have been on a list 3 years and never played a single senior game before delisting?

I'd suggest there'd be dozens of those. After all, Kersten and Bews were drafted in the same year and only debuted this year. Probably not a lot of four year players though.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

We also traded out of the first round for two early second rounders.

Cheers. Didn't realise that. On the surface 26 down to 32 + 34 looks to be a good deal in what at present looks to be a weaker draft, further compromised by an expansion team and compensation picks. Not the best year to be premiers, but it's a price I'm happy to pay.

Anyway one of those picks has been a bust and the jury is still out on Kersten. Hope he can become a consistent player for us going forward.

 

[Vdubs]

I'd suggest there'd be dozens of those. After all, Kersten and Bews were drafted in the same year and only debuted this year. Probably not a lot of four year players though.

At Geelong is my reference now, long time without a single game, anyway, it's done.

 

[Partridge]

Is Hamling one of the few players to have been on a list 3 years and never played a single senior game before delisting?

I'm trying to think of a recent one. Djerrkura did play seniors I think.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I'm trying to think of a recent one. Djerrkura did play seniors I think.

Debuted in 2009.

I don't think we have one in recent times. We've tended to give them two years, then cut them loose.

 

[JUBJUB]

Is Hamling one of the few players to have been on a list 3 years and never played a single senior game before delisting?

How long was Scott Simpson on the list ?

* Forget that,he did play 4 games

 

[iameviljez]

Is Hamling one of the few players to have been on a list 3 years and never played a single senior game before delisting?

Josh Cowan board, but I get what you're saying in terms of having a fairly clear run with injury

 

[iameviljez]

Pods was also arguably not even playing his role in the second half of his last season at Geelong. He was, in simple terms, pretty rubbish over that stretch, especially when you consider how much we needed him to step up, with Hawkins battling. He became a regular at Adelaide and essentially rejuvenated his career. He also took more contested marks and marks inside 50 per game and kicked about the same percentage of his team's goals.

As for King, well, if the bar for 'done well' is B&Fs and AAs, I guess his form in the early 00s, before he was beset by multiple injuries would be relevant. Personally, I'd look at what he did in his first couple of years at St Kilda, compared to his last few years at Geelong, as well as the fact that he played 6 of his 16 career finals for the Saints. So, yes, I'd say he did pretty well for St Kilda.

The bar for "done well" is, I think, not simply playing AFL football with another club, but instead playing AFL football at a better standard than that set by the club that you left. Merely being a regular in a team that either isn't in the finals or has a weakness in your position doesn't necessarily indicate "done well", at least relative to the club's decision to let you go.

I guess we're really debating from whose perspective we're interpreting "did well" - the club, or the player.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The bar for "done well" is, I think, not simply playing AFL football with another club, but instead playing AFL football at a better standard than that set by the club that you left. Merely being a regular in a team that either isn't in the finals or has a weakness in your position doesn't necessarily indicate "done well", at least relative to the club's decision to let you go.

I guess we're really debating from whose perspective we're interpreting "did well" - the club, or the player.

Well, lucky he was in a top four team for two years that he played in six finals for and that had Ben McEvoy waiting in the wings then.

 

[iameviljez]

Well, lucky he was in a top four team for two years that he played in six finals for and that had Ben McEvoy waiting in the wings then.

Ben McEvoy was a green youngster who wasn't ready, King and Gardiner were drafted in to fill a gap and neither were top-four standard ruckmen at the time.

Blake wasn't any better, mind, but King's seasons at StKilda weren't really anything that we missed out on.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Ben McEvoy was a green youngster who wasn't ready, King and Gardiner were drafted in to fill a gap and neither were top-four standard ruckmen at the time.

Blake wasn't any better, mind, but King's seasons at StKilda weren't really anything that we missed out on.

What exactly are 'top-four standard ruckmen'? Because, at the time, it appears as though the likes of Josh Fraser and Ben Hudson would have sufficed.

 

[Partridge]

Ben McEvoy was a green youngster who wasn't ready, King and Gardiner were drafted in to fill a gap and neither were top-four standard ruckmen at the time.

Blake wasn't any better, mind, but King's seasons at StKilda weren't really anything that we missed out on.

Separate to the discussion, but I'd argue Blake's last two seasons (2009 and 2010) were way better than Kings last couple of years.

 

[iameviljez]

What exactly are 'top-four standard ruckmen'? Because, at the time, it appears as though the likes of Josh Fraser and Ben Hudson would have sufficed.

The best four to eight ruckman in the league at the time, surely? Ergo, Ottens, Jolly, Sandilands, Cox, McIntosh. OK, maybe I was being a bit harsh on Gardiner.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

The best four to eight ruckman in the league at the time, surely? Ergo, Ottens, Jolly, Sandilands, Cox, McIntosh. OK, maybe I was being a bit harsh on Gardiner.

I thought we were talking about teams ('...lucky he was in a top four team...' '...neither were top-four standard ruckmen...')? Are we back at 'B&Fs and AAs or you're useless'? Because Ottens didn't rack up too many of those in his time at Geelong either.

King provided St Kilda with two years of very good service after he'd been discarded and while the Saints were a very good-to-outstanding team.

 

[Bobby_]

King provided St Kilda with two years of very good service after he'd been discarded and while the Saints were a very good-to-outstanding team.

1st year he gave them 11 touches, 3 marks (0.01 contested marks), 18 hit-outs, 1½ clearances, 2½ tackles & 0.2 goals per game.
2nd year he gave them 8½ touches, 2 marks (0.03 contested marks), 15 hit-outs, 1½ clearances, 2 tackles, & 0.1 goals per game.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

1st year he gave them 11 touches, 3 marks (0.01 contested marks), 18 hit-outs, 1½ clearances, 2½ tackles & 0.2 goals per game.
2nd year he gave them 8½ touches, 2 marks (0.03 contested marks), 15 hit-outs, 1½ clearances, 2 tackles, & 0.1 goals per game.

In less than 50% game time.

 

[iameviljez]

I thought we were talking about teams ('...lucky he was in a top four team...' '...neither were top-four standard ruckmen...')? Are we back at 'B&Fs and AAs or you're useless'? Because Ottens didn't rack up too many of those in his time at Geelong either.

King provided St Kilda with two years of very good service after he'd been discarded and while the Saints were a very good-to-outstanding team.

I disagree with the "two years of very good service" bit - I seem to remember that he was pretty cooked at the time and really struggled overhead in particular. Stats show that in 2009 in particular he struggled to find the ball or have any around the ground influence.

Obviously one doesn't need a B&F or AA selection to be a top-four standard ruckman, because by definition there were only 16 players each year (in that era) who won B&Fs and only two ruckmen in each AA squad, that would be crazytalk.

 

[SJ]

Separate to the discussion, but I'd argue Blake's last two seasons (2009 and 2010) were way better than Kings last couple of years.

I'd also argue they were better than any season a Geelong ruckman has put together between 2012 and 2014.

 

[Partridge]

I'd also argue they were better than any season a Geelong ruckman has put together between 2012 and 2014.

Pretty much. You could make a case for West in 2012 perhaps.

 

[iameviljez]

I'd also argue they were better than any season a Geelong ruckman has put together between 2012 and 2014.

Can we make composites out of multiple ruckmen?

 

[Lana]

How long was Scott Simpson on the list ?

* Forget that,he did play 4 games

Pretty sure he didn't.