Gough Whitlam: Messiah or Very Naughty Boy?

[medusala]

So, no house, just * em?

The vast majority live without the govt giving them a house. What else should they be given? Car? Beer fridge?

This is kinda like the beginning of the zombie apocolypse

Sure. That's what Australia was like pre Whitlam. What misology.

so the average cost of prisoners per year is just over 100k?

It would appear so though I don't know how they calc costs. £35k in the UK IIRC so I don't know why Oz is so much.

Still against that you have to take off the costs Mal mentioned ie police time, social services etcetc.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

The vast majority live without the govt giving them a house. What else should they be given? Car? Beer fridge?

Dignity would be a good start.

Sure. That's what Australia was like pre Whitlam. What misology.

The definition of misology is the hatred of logical debate.

I'm just struggling to see the logic here.

 

[Nikita Blue]

a) the stats aren't favourable
b) who talked of locking people up? Rather it was simply not taking cash from taxpayers to house them.



If I cant pay my rent/mortgage (as opposed to the govt housing me at stuff all cost) what am I going to do?

Hardly the concern of other taxpayers and nor should it be

Again - why have you so little sympathy for law abiding citizens whose lives are blighted by people such as these?

This was the problem with Gough and others in the 70s. The victimhood / life owes me a living agenda came to the fore.

Its produced a very ugly Australia where those who contribute little constantly demand more and more from those that do.

Hardly conducive to a cohesive society.

Interesting that the only people claiming victimhood on this thread are the right-wingers

 

[Jiska]

Whitlam’s visit to China did result in a historic trade agreement.. which was the beginning of the end for Australian manufacturing because he cut tariff’s across the board by 25% without any consultation with industry in the 1973 budget.

138,000 jobs were lost in manufacturing over the next 2 years.

LOL. So it's Gough's fault that manufacturing didn't survive in Australia? Nothing to do with the fact Australia's wanted to buy cheaper products from overseas rather than support homegrown products? Less consultation and more action would be great by today's politicians too. They're all just mouthpieces for big business rather than Governing in the best interests of the country.

Free-trade is essential to Australia's future. Manufacturing was never going to survive in Australia; people holding on to that notion are just plain naive.

 

[B4Bear]

Interesting that the only people claiming victimhood on this thread are the right-whingers

Fixed.

 

[Xsess]

LOL. So it's Gough's fault that manufacturing didn't survive in Australia? Nothing to do with the fact Australia's wanted to buy cheaper products from overseas rather than support homegrown products? Less consultation and more action would be great by today's politicians too. They're all just mouthpieces for big business rather than Governing in the best interests of the country.

Free-trade is essential to Australia's future. Manufacturing was never going to survive in Australia; people holding on to that notion are just plain naive.

Big picture, correct (I didn't say otherwise). However in the short term cutting tarrifs without consultation resulted in 138,000 people losing their jobs in manufacturing in two years. Was a shocking decision. Similar to the knee jerk ban of the live cattle trade.

 

[Malifice]

If I cant pay my rent/mortgage (as opposed to the govt housing me at stuff all cost) what am I going to do? Hardly the concern of other taxpayers and nor should it be

If this family is going to cost the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars, then it is the concern of the taxpayers.

Also; homeless people tend towards crime. Its inevitable. Higher crime and swathes of homeless people affect taxpayers just as much.

Again - why have you so little sympathy for law abiding citizens whose lives are blighted by people such as these?

I have immense sympathy. Thats why I support programs designed to stop the problem at the cause.

You would simply let it happen at a massive cost to the taxpayer.

Whether this family is on the street or in a house, they're still going to be a problem to law abiding citizens. You do see this right?

Hardly conducive to a cohesive society.

Mate; your definition of a cohesive society where 5 year olds are homeless and we do nothing to help stop this problem, and my definition of a cohesive society where we all pitch in to help families like this are worlds apart.

 

[Malifice]

It would appear so though I don't know how they calc costs. £35k in the UK IIRC so I don't know why Oz is so much.

Still against that you have to take off the costs Mal mentioned ie police time, social services etcetc.

Seriously Meds; do the numbers. This Police commissioner did (via an accounting firm) and the numbers came out to something ridiculous like 170 million dollars over this families life.

Instead of spending 100k p/a per adult on imprisonment, how about spending one lot of 100k and fixing the problem at its root cause, giving this family help and getting them into the workforce (where the money spent can be recovered).

Surely on a purely economics basis you have to support this?

 

[Xsess]

Seriously Meds; do the numbers. This Police commissioner did (via an accounting firm) and the numbers came out to something ridiculous like 170 million dollars over this families life.

Instead of spending 100k p/a per adult on imprisonment, how about spending one lot of 100k and fixing the problem at its root cause, giving this family help and getting them into the workforce (where the money spent can be recovered).

Surely on a purely economics basis you have to support this?

Yup I've never understood this system that punishes $ociety more than the antisocial cretins. I'd like to see chaingangs with crooks building roads and other infrastructure, routine floggings for certain crimes and capital punishment reintroduced for the worst of the worst. If they set up a nice set of stocks on the Esplanade at Perth I'd line up to throw some rotten fruit at some car thief or vandal. It could become a tourist attraction, something we as Australians could be really proud of.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

Yup I've never understood this system that punishes $ociety more than the antisocial cretins. I'd like to see chaingangs with crooks building roads and other infrastructure, routine floggings for certain crimes and capital punishment reintroduced for the worst of the worst. If they set up a nice set of stocks on the Esplanade at Perth I'd line up to throw some rotten fruit at some car thief or vandal. It could become a tourist attraction, something we as Australians could be really proud of.

Just marvellous.

 

[Malifice]

Yup I've never understood this system that punishes $ociety more than the antisocial cretins. I'd like to see chaingangs with crooks building roads and other infrastructure, routine floggings for certain crimes and capital punishment reintroduced for the worst of the worst. If they set up a nice set of stocks on the Esplanade at Perth I'd line up to throw some rotten fruit at some car thief or vandal. It could become a tourist attraction, something we as Australians could be really proud of.

Just when I think youre actually reasonably smart, you do this.

 

[Fred]

Trying to move some of the Whitlam discussion away from the Tribute thread to somewhere more appropriate.

So what were Whitlam's policy successes and failures? Did he leave the nation a better place than it was before him? Did he set us on the right path or on the path to ruin? Is his legacy one that should endure or be dismantled?

FYI the alternative question choice was "Great Prime Minister or Greatest Prime Minister?"

He was the sort of PM that Australia could afford for a short time only. It was the most shambolic government I've ever seen.

 

[Xsess]

Tax payers?

I'll give something to consider. "Your" money, isn't your money at all. Every single note, cent, any legal tender of any kind is not yours, but actually the government. You receive it under the premise of "work", and use it to go about your life.

Our education curriculum needs a complete overhaul. Its nothing short of a total education system failure when modern Australians can come out of it actually believing this.

 

[Xsess]

Just when I think youre actually reasonably smart, you do this.

I'm a scallywag.. and satire lives at that tipping point between decisive social commentary and farce.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

He was the sort of PM that Australia could afford for a short time only. It was the most shambolic government I've ever seen.

It's a little hard to argue against that, however I am struggling to see how a government led by that buffoon Billy McMahon could have been much better.

At least Gough had ideas, Billy just wanted to show off Sonia and imitate Alfred E. Neuman.

 

[Fred]

It's a little hard to argue against that, however I am struggling to see how a government led by that buffoon Billy McMahon could have been much better.

At least Gough had ideas, Billy just wanted to show off Sonia and imitate Alfred E. Neuman.

Governments aren't just the leader. McMahon sounded and looked worse than he was. Whitlam individually had a lot of good ideas socially but some of those behind him running important areas were off doing their own thing without taking much notice of governmental conventions.

 

[Elroo]

Big picture, correct (I didn't say otherwise). However in the short term cutting tarrifs without consultation resulted in 138,000 people losing their jobs in manufacturing in two years. Was a shocking decision. Similar to the knee jerk ban of the live cattle trade.

You wanted Whitlam to keep imposing costs on Australian consumers/businesses to support inefficient domestic companies??? Well done comrade.

 

[Elroo]

Governments aren't just the leader. McMahon sounded and looked worse than he was. Whitlam individually had a lot of good ideas socially but some of those behind him running important areas were off doing their own thing without taking much notice of governmental conventions.

McMahon was a corrupt incompetent moron whose own party and even Murdoch wanted to get rid of. You have to a terrible LNP government when even Murdoch turns on you!

 

[Fred]

McMahon was a corrupt incompetent moron whose own party and even Murdoch wanted to get rid of. You have to a terrible LNP government when even Murdoch turns on you!

A view wholly formed from reading the opinions of others. You weren't even born when McMahon died.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

A view wholly formed from reading the opinions of others. You weren't even born when McMahon died.

It's a fair enough assertion though.

McMahon was widely lampooned as a leader, let alone as a man of vision and ideas. Essentially, the Libs were scraping the bottom of the barrel when they elected him and, after so many years of winning elections, were a touch arrogant with hubris.

I don't think it unreasonable at all to state that McMahon would have been a steady as she goes, Menzies era bore, at a time of massive global upheaval and change.

Gough, or moreso his minions, stuffed a hell of a lot up, but McMahon and co would have sat idly by as the world passed them.

 

[Xsess]

St. Gough? I think one needs 3 verified miracles to be officially a saint and I have already witnessed about 30 miracles attributable to the great man from the ABC alone. Australians should always be grateful for his bringing us down out of the trees and paying for us to learn how to walk upright.

 

[Elroo]

A view wholly formed from reading the opinions of others. You weren't even born when McMahon died.

Don't take my age in my profile as fact. I was well and truly alive when the incompetent moron McMahon was in power and watched as his own side knifed and destabilized his government with the help of Murdoch.

 

[Riseupaustralia]

St. Gough? I think one needs 3 verified miracles to be officially a saint and I have already witnessed about 30 miracles attributable to the great man from the ABC alone. Australians should always be grateful for his bringing us down out of the trees and paying for us to learn how to walk upright.

Hates ABC with an absolute passion.

Watches it relentlessly to get enraged.

 

[madmug]

LOL. So it's Gough's fault that manufacturing didn't survive in Australia? Nothing to do with the fact Australia's wanted to buy cheaper products from overseas rather than support homegrown products? Less consultation and more action would be great by today's politicians too. They're all just mouthpieces for big business rather than Governing in the best interests of the country.

Free-trade is essential to Australia's future. Manufacturing was never going to survive in Australia; people holding on to that notion are just plain naive.

Free trade? Like the Chinese excise on our coal but no excise on their manufactured goods. etc etc etc

 

[Xsess]

You wanted Whitlam to keep imposing costs on Australian consumers/businesses to support inefficient domestic companies??? Well done comrade.

Admittedly Gough had stars in his eyes when he met his idol Mao. I can almost picture him on his knees knocking his head at the feet of the great man, signing away 138,000 Australian jobs with the sweep of a pen.