Ukraine on verge of civil war?

Dec 22, 2009
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Nobody claimed Russia fired the missile themselves. It was always known it was the rebels. As for the missile itself the rebels don't have the experience necessary to operate a BUK and the phone intercepts are pretty damning about where the BUK crew came from. There is 0% doubt a BUK was filmed returning to Russia after the event.

Crash Site: The OCSE staff members themselves stated they were refused access to the crash site by the rebels. They are neutral and have no reason to lie.

As for looting the crash site family members of victims rang their mobile phones and got russian voices on the other end. So there was stealing from the crash site but not to the same level as originally thought.

There's plenty of verifiable evidence that Russian troops are inside Ukraine. Including Russian soldiers who have posted pictures on instagram with the geolocation coordinates being clearly inside Ukraine.

None of your rebuttals have any evidence behind them. Only a fool would think the Russians are being truthful.
 

corbomite

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Let's see some of the claims made by the West:

- Missile fired from Russia. Flase

- Russian troops fired missile. False

- Russian supplied missile used. False

- Russian troops have entered Ukraine. No evidence yet supplied, plenty of Russian troops by the border, but no evidence that they actually entered Ukraine territory that is verifiable has been provided.

- Rebels looted the crash site and profited from it. Evidence used by western media has been shown to be fake.

- Rebels blocked access to site. The rebels requested certain guarantees from the Ukraine government regarding a cease fire agreement in the region, which the Ukraine government initially was not willing to give, as soon as it was given access was granted. the rebels didn't want recovery teams and media in the middle of a war zone.

- Rebels broke the ceasefire agreement putting recovery workers lives in danger. False, the Ukraine government were the ones who restarted hostilities and breached the ceasefire area, once this happened it is open slather.

The whole campaign by NATO is for Ukraine to enter and NATO once again breach agreements with Russia. If you don't believe it why then did NATO refuse to send observers to the Crimea referrendum? Because they knew that it would be a Yes vote to succeede from Ukraine. Instead they got the puppet that is the UN security council to condemn it and used it as a trigger to impose sanctions.

Why also did NATO so readily recognise an unelected government that siezed power in a coup. NATO signed agreements with an unelected government, but refuse to acknowledge the Hamas government in Palestine territories which were democratically elected.

The West has provoked this conflict from the start to enable NATO to meet their desired objectives of applying pressure on Russia and allowing Western companies to pillage Eastern Europe.
Good grief, thing's are getting worse for you.
Sorry, I shouldn't make fun of someone with a head injury.

So the West/NATO started this whole thing to enable their companies to pillage Eastern Europe, eh? They forced Putin to invade Crimea?
They then forced Putin to send weaponry and troops into eastern Ukraine? They organised the murder of hundreds people in a commercial aeroplane?
Then these dreadful people have the audacity to blame the avuncular Vladimir, a noted humanitarian.

And how do we know this? The internet tells us so. You genius.
Er, and where do you live, the West? How can you tolerate it?
I always like to suggest to the beanbaggers that they're free to move.
Pick up your dole cheque and get on Aeroflot - you may be lucky enough to find a tiny flat in Moscow, which you only have to share with 2 other families.
No car, no job, no health care, no decent food ... but there may be a little tele where you can enjoy quality Russian journalism.
 

awaremind

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Let's see some of the claims made by the West:

- Missile fired from Russia. Flase

- Russian troops fired missile. False

- Russian supplied missile used. False

- Russian troops have entered Ukraine. No evidence yet supplied, plenty of Russian troops by the border, but no evidence that they actually entered Ukraine territory that is verifiable has been provided.

- Rebels looted the crash site and profited from it. Evidence used by western media has been shown to be fake.

- Rebels blocked access to site. The rebels requested certain guarantees from the Ukraine government regarding a cease fire agreement in the region, which the Ukraine government initially was not willing to give, as soon as it was given access was granted. the rebels didn't want recovery teams and media in the middle of a war zone.

- Rebels broke the ceasefire agreement putting recovery workers lives in danger. False, the Ukraine government were the ones who restarted hostilities and breached the ceasefire area, once this happened it is open slather.

The whole campaign by NATO is for Ukraine to enter and NATO once again breach agreements with Russia. If you don't believe it why then did NATO refuse to send observers to the Crimea referrendum? Because they knew that it would be a Yes vote to succeede from Ukraine. Instead they got the puppet that is the UN security council to condemn it and used it as a trigger to impose sanctions.

Why also did NATO so readily recognise an unelected government that siezed power in a coup. NATO signed agreements with an unelected government, but refuse to acknowledge the Hamas government in Palestine territories which were democratically elected.

The West has provoked this conflict from the start to enable NATO to meet their desired objectives of applying pressure on Russia and allowing Western companies to pillage Eastern Europe.
The concerted media war against Russia and Putin is glaringly obvious, not neccessarily by what is said but by what is not said. If it doesnt fit the Evil Putin, Evil Russia, narrative, you are unlikely to hear of it, eg the recent German intelligence report- no sign of it on the MSM. If Putin was as bad as he is made out to be - why is he always pushing for dialogue and not violent means of conflict resolution? He isn't very gung-ho for someone they call Putler.
 

awaremind

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Good grief, thing's are getting worse for you.
Sorry, I shouldn't make fun of someone with a head injury.

So the West/NATO started this whole thing to enable their companies to pillage Eastern Europe, eh? They forced Putin to invade Crimea?
They then forced Putin to send weaponry and troops into eastern Ukraine? They organised the murder of hundreds people in a commercial aeroplane?
Then these dreadful people have the audacity to blame the avuncular Vladimir, a noted humanitarian.

And how do we know this? The internet tells us so. You genius.
Er, and where do you live, the West? How can you tolerate it?
I always like to suggest to the beanbaggers that they're free to move.
Pick up your dole cheque and get on Aeroflot - you may be lucky enough to find a tiny flat in Moscow, which you only have to share with 2 other families.
No car, no job, no health care, no decent food ... but there may be a little tele where you can enjoy quality Russian journalism.
lol I didn't know Ukrainians liked AFL?
 

awaremind

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Nobody claimed Russia fired the missile themselves. It was always known it was the rebels. As for the missile itself the rebels don't have the experience necessary to operate a BUK and the phone intercepts are pretty damning about where the BUK crew came from. There is 0% doubt a BUK was filmed returning to Russia after the event.

Crash Site: The OCSE staff members themselves stated they were refused access to the crash site by the rebels. They are neutral and have no reason to lie.

As for looting the crash site family members of victims rang their mobile phones and got russian voices on the other end. So there was stealing from the crash site but not to the same level as originally thought.

There's plenty of verifiable evidence that Russian troops are inside Ukraine. Including Russian soldiers who have posted pictures on instagram with the geolocation coordinates being clearly inside Ukraine.

None of your rebuttals have any evidence behind them. Only a fool would think the Russians are being truthful.
The US will have pictures of the event, they had a satellite overhead- Lets see the pics or GTFO!

The Guardian is actually putting something out there that paints Poroshenko and pals as less than Angelic.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/21/cluster-bombs-ukraine-human-rights-watch

Evidence collected by New York-based Human Rights Watch suggests both government forces and pro-Russian separatists have used cluster munitions in eastern Ukraine.

A spokesmen for the Kiev government’s military operation against the uprising in the east denied the accusations. The rebels were not immediately available to comment.

Cluster bombs explode in the air, scattering dozens of smaller bombs over an area the size of a sports field. Most countries have banned them under a convention that became international law in 2010, but Ukraine has not signed it.

Human Rights Watch said in a statement it had carried out a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, where more than 3,700 people have been killed in fighting since April, and documented widespread use of cluster munitions.

It said it could not conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks but “the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks” this month on Donetsk, the rebels’ main stronghold.

“It is shocking to see a weapon that most countries have banned used so extensively in eastern Ukraine,” said Mark Hiznay, senior arms researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Ukrainian authorities should make an immediate commitment not to use cluster munitions and join the treaty to ban them.”

In 12 incidents documented, cluster munitions killed at least six people and wounded dozens, but the toll could be higher, the watchdog said.

It said it had identified the cluster munitions by their distinctive crater and fragmentation patterns, by remnants found at the impact sites and by remnants of the rockets found in the vicinity.

“We do not use cluster munitions. They can only be used by aviation and our aviation has not flown since the announcement of a ceasefire on 5 September,” said military spokesman Andriy Lysenko.

Another military spokesman, Vladyslav Seleznyov, described the accusations as “utter nonsense”.

Human Rights Watch added: “While not conclusive, circumstances indicate that anti-government forces might also have been responsible for the use of cluster munitions.”

Russia has denied sending troops or weapons to help the rebels but Human Rights Watch urged Moscow to commit to not using cluster bombs and accede to the cluster munitions treaty.
 
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johnnypanther

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You guys love lapping up Russian propaganda. Ask the typical Ukranian and they'll tell you how it is - Russia is in it for themselves and are not welcome in Ukraine. The Ukranian government is not illegal, it is the same government who have removed and replaced their leader. Which you will find is perfectly legal. To call the right sector violent is ridiculous with all of the violent civil unrest the Russians are sponsoring. And the notion of them being Nazis is 100% Russian propaganda. Say that to a Ukranian and they'll tear your head off.


Open your eyes mate ..... i'm a Ukrainian .... family in the East ..... and if you can get past your blind rabid anti-Russian stance then you may understand that its not all black and white over there and there are many differing positions.
PS At the moment i'ld be more inclined to "tear the head off" Poroschenko and much of the right sector.
Perhaps its the Yankees who are covertly sponsoring the violent civil unrest :)
 

corbomite

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Open your eyes mate ..... i'm a Ukrainian .... family in the East ..... and if you can get past your blind rabid anti-Russian stance then you may understand that its not all black and white over there and there are many differing positions.
PS At the moment i'ld be more inclined to "tear the head off" Poroschenko and much of the right sector.
Perhaps its the Yankees who are covertly sponsoring the violent civil unrest :)
Nice try, bozo.
You are not Ukrainian, just ridiculous.
 
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Good grief, thing's are getting worse for you.
Sorry, I shouldn't make fun of someone with a head injury.

So the West/NATO started this whole thing to enable their companies to pillage Eastern Europe, eh? They forced Putin to invade Crimea?
They then forced Putin to send weaponry and troops into eastern Ukraine? They organised the murder of hundreds people in a commercial aeroplane?
Then these dreadful people have the audacity to blame the avuncular Vladimir, a noted humanitarian.

And how do we know this? The internet tells us so. You genius.
Er, and where do you live, the West? How can you tolerate it?
I always like to suggest to the beanbaggers that they're free to move.
Pick up your dole cheque and get on Aeroflot - you may be lucky enough to find a tiny flat in Moscow, which you only have to share with 2 other families.
No car, no job, no health care, no decent food ... but there may be a little tele where you can enjoy quality Russian journalism.
Have you renewed your Liberal Party membership in time for the election so you can stand there handing out how to vote cards whilst you read a Murdoch paper?

Western media have made huge unsubstaniated claims against Russia, now that German intellegence is coming out and contradicting much of what the USA and her allies have previously stated questions must be asked if any of their major claims are true.

Ukraine had large army bases in Eastern Ukraine, these fell into the hands of the rebels and many of them feel quickly early into the civil war. This then gave them access to modern arms, which the illegitimate Ukraine government said had to of come from Russia. Why did they say this? to save face to their own people about the fact that the weapons used had been taken from their own army and now being used against them. All the evidence being quoted by Western media has not been corroborated by any country I would call independent in this matter.

Whilst my comments about Western companies may be a stretch, it doesn't change the fact that the USA government and NATO have been feeding a pack of lies through the comments of a corrupt administration in Kiev. Russia has been saying for some time now that the only way to resolve this situation is to split Ukraine into two countries, you may not like this by when people like Malcolm Fraser are also calling for the same thing, yet the USA refuse to consider it you must ask real questions about what is the underlying reason for the USA to so strongly back Kiev in this and why won't they actively talk with Russia over it.

Personal insults and name calling show that you are insecure and lack the fundamental belief in your own words to enable you to constructively enter a proper debate. So grow up or shut up.
 

corbomite

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Have you renewed your Liberal Party membership in time for the election so you can stand there handing out how to vote cards whilst you read a Murdoch paper?

Western media have made huge unsubstaniated claims against Russia, now that German intellegence is coming out and contradicting much of what the USA and her allies have previously stated questions must be asked if any of their major claims are true.

Ukraine had large army bases in Eastern Ukraine, these fell into the hands of the rebels and many of them feel quickly early into the civil war. This then gave them access to modern arms, which the illegitimate Ukraine government said had to of come from Russia. Why did they say this? to save face to their own people about the fact that the weapons used had been taken from their own army and now being used against them. All the evidence being quoted by Western media has not been corroborated by any country I would call independent in this matter.

Whilst my comments about Western companies may be a stretch, it doesn't change the fact that the USA government and NATO have been feeding a pack of lies through the comments of a corrupt administration in Kiev. Russia has been saying for some time now that the only way to resolve this situation is to split Ukraine into two countries, you may not like this by when people like Malcolm Fraser are also calling for the same thing, yet the USA refuse to consider it you must ask real questions about what is the underlying reason for the USA to so strongly back Kiev in this and why won't they actively talk with Russia over it.

Personal insults and name calling show that you are insecure and lack the fundamental belief in your own words to enable you to constructively enter a proper debate. So grow up or shut up.
And just when I thought things couldn't get worse for you ... oh dear.
You must have completely taken leave of your senses, had they ever existed.

I must congratulate you on the Liberal/Murdoch assumption - quite the non-sequitur. That must mean you're a Mexican whose favourite colour is pink, right? According to your logic.
Personally, I don't understand how disenchantment with the West equates to any valid defence of Putin, a thug of the highest order, who has form.

Everything you said is rubbish, yet again, gleaned from the net ... and ooh, a 'German' site blah blah, how impressive. (Out of interest, how come they're not nazis anymore, just Ukrainians apparently?) As previously stated, there was never an 'us and them' problem in eastern Ukraine - the area was effectively Russian in all but name. Signs, language, everything; it was accepted.
There were no 'rebels.' Putin put his boys in to create dissension where none existed. Did anyone expect Ukraine to lie down again as they did in Crimea?
That's the simple truth, beanbaggers. Anyone can find things to substantiate what they've chosen to believe. It's called inductive thinking and is the hallmark of ignorance.

And referencing Mal Fraser? Thankyou! I laughed so hard, was nearly driven to incontinence. So the barely animate cadaver thinks Ukraine should be split in two, eh? A dackless, post-male-menopausal, mortality-fearing, Western Districts, mediocre embarrassment ventures to opine about foreign policy; this is too much .. knee-slappin' stuff. Source Homer Simpson next time, or anyone less pathetic.
 
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The Coup

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Why would anyone want to split up the Ukraine?

Russia want control of all of Ukraine, that is the status quo they're trying to protect. Balkanisation would be a loss for them.

And why would Kiev offer that solution either? Just offering to hand over half of your nation to Russia? A country that wouldn't accept balkanisation anyway?

Not going to happen imo, a protracted stand off looks the most likely in the short-medium term and FIIK what happens after that.
 

awaremind

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And just when I thought things couldn't get worse for you ... oh dear.
You must have completely taken leave of your senses, had they ever existed.

I must congratulate you on the Liberal/Murdoch assumption - quite the non-sequitur. That must mean you're a Mexican whose favourite colour is pink, right? According to your logic.
Personally, I don't understand how disenchantment with the West equates to any valid defence of Putin, a thug of the highest order, who has form.

Everything you said is rubbish, yet again, gleaned from the net ... and ooh, a 'German' site blah blah, how impressive. (Out of interest, how come they're not nazis anymore, just Ukrainians apparently?) As previously stated, there was never an 'us and them' problem in eastern Ukraine - the area was effectively Russian in all but name. Signs, language, everything; it was accepted.
There were no 'rebels.' Putin put his boys in to create dissension where none existed. Did anyone expect Ukraine to lie down again as they did in Crimea?
That's the simple truth, beanbaggers. Anyone can find things to substantiate what they've chosen to believe. It's called inductive thinking and is the hallmark of ignorance.

And referencing Mal Fraser? Thankyou! I laughed so hard, was nearly driven to incontinence. So the barely animate cadaver thinks Ukraine should be split in two, eh? A dackless, post-male-menopausal, mortality-fearing, Western Districts, mediocre embarrassment ventures to opine about foreign policy; this is too much .. knee-slappin' stuff. Source Homer Simpson next time, or anyone less pathetic.

I absolutely agree; personal insults and name-calling are uncalled for in any rational, intelligent discourse.
Therefore, I'll reserve it for you, dickwad.
So why are you the all-knowing being of truth? You just say what you think is the case with no argument or proof just lots of insults. Even if you are correct you are a total f-wit. Maybe wc2020 invented you to make himself more likeable in comparison. The Eastern Ukrainian rebels would have failed long ago had they not had popular approval. That area(E UKR) is the traditional home of the Cossacks who are fiercely independent and Russo-conservative, a warrior caste who apparently took great joy in slaughtering the imbeciles and incompetents that Kiev sent. (And flogging the Pussy Riot girl with whips in Sochi). You are following the moronic Kiev line perfectly. They will probably want to altogether break the Minsk agreement for another offensive once they have found some competent leaders for thier army, not least because the fascist punishers will most likely attack Kiev if not the Donbass.
 

corbomite

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So why are you the all-knowing being of truth? You just say what you think is the case with no argument or proof just lots of insults. Even if you are correct you are a total f-wit. Maybe wc2020 invented you to make himself more likeable in comparison. The Eastern Ukrainian rebels would have failed long ago had they not had popular approval. That area(E UKR) is the traditional home of the Cossacks who are fiercely independent and Russo-conservative, a warrior caste who apparently took great joy in slaughtering the imbeciles and incompetents that Kiev sent. (And flogging the Pussy Riot girl with whips in Sochi). You are following the moronic Kiev line perfectly. They will probably want to altogether break the Minsk agreement for another offensive once they have found some competent leaders for thier army, not least because the fascist punishers will most likely attack Kiev if not the Donbass.
Because I have first hand knowledge, sweetie, and you should be grateful to be a beneficiary of such, instead of practically copy-pasting from fallacious sites, selectively, to consolidate your already affirmed stance and yet cast aspersions on my credentials. You continue to make no sense.
I have provided facts from current and historical perspectives, logically, to no avail - you can lead a horse to water ...
Haha, accuse me of 'lots of insults,' then proceed to call me a 'total f-wit.' Contradictory, no? Yet amusing.

Once againnnnn, no 'rebels' existed prior to Putin's invasion of eastern Ukraine (which was the natural consequence of his easy ride in Crimea).
Ethnic Russians and Ukrainians lived peaceably together in their usual communal, post-Communist, statist misery. Politics was never an issue for the average Ivan .. they scrounge around for the best possible life.
There is no such thing as 'popular approval' when it is sought from Putin's personnel ... and others whose lives are compromised.

Re the Cossacks, what the hell are you talking about?! Russo-conservative and all the other effluent; won't even bother to quote. Where do you get this stuff from, History 4 Dummies? The Ukrainian Cossacks effectively came to form in the late 15th century in an area surrounding parts of the Dnieper River (Dnipro) to fight off the hordes. They were fugitives from serfdom and feudal oppression and the eventual vanguard for freedom from any yoke. Many groups existed, but in due course, consolidated into the Zaporozhye Cossacks (Sech), named after the region.

Fierce and combative in defence of their land, seeing multitudes have always wanted the breadbasket of Europe, they also handled administrative and economic affairs. Over the ensuing centuries, they continued to parry encroaching enemies, including Turks, Tartars and the Polish gentry, which succeeded in annexing west Ukraine ... which some may say was a 'what did the Romans ever do for us' situation. Anything better than Russians.
Just a short course in Cossack history, which is clearly richer and more convoluted. But maybe more suited to your limited attention span.

You call Cossacks a caste? The net has let you down, bud. You are not even worthy to mention their name.
They were human beings who loved hard and fought hard for freedom, not fat slobs whose only exercise is to use an opposing thumb to punch in Russian propaganda from your scrumpy-sodden laptop.

Btw don't impugn worldcup'20's integrity. Unfortunately for your theory, he's the good guy who has does done his best with you brainwashed fools.
I have no such compunction ... for the limited time I can be bothered.
 

awaremind

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Because I have first hand knowledge, sweetie, and you should be grateful to be a beneficiary of such, instead of practically copy-pasting from fallacious sites, selectively, to consolidate your already affirmed stance and yet cast aspersions on my credentials. You continue to make no sense.
I have provided facts from current and historical perspectives, logically, to no avail - you can lead a horse to water ...
Haha, accuse me of 'lots of insults,' then proceed to call me a 'total f-wit.' Contradictory, no? Yet amusing.

Once againnnnn, no 'rebels' existed prior to Putin's invasion of eastern Ukraine (which was the natural consequence of his easy ride in Crimea).
Ethnic Russians and Ukrainians lived peaceably together in their usual communal, post-Communist, statist misery. Politics was never an issue for the average Ivan .. they scrounge around for the best possible life.
There is no such thing as 'popular approval' when it is sought from Putin's personnel ... and others whose lives are compromised.

Re the Cossacks, what the hell are you talking about?! Russo-conservative and all the other effluent; won't even bother to quote. Where do you get this stuff from, History 4 Dummies? The Ukrainian Cossacks effectively came to form in the late 15th century in an area surrounding parts of the Dnieper River (Dnipro) to fight off the hordes. They were fugitives from serfdom and feudal oppression and the eventual vanguard for freedom from any yoke. Many groups existed, but in due course, consolidated into the Zaporozhye Cossacks (Sech), named after the region.

Fierce and combative in defence of their land, seeing multitudes have always wanted the breadbasket of Europe, they also handled administrative and economic affairs. Over the ensuing centuries, they continued to parry encroaching enemies, including Turks, Tartars and the Polish gentry, which succeeded in annexing west Ukraine ... which some may say was a 'what did the Romans ever do for us' situation. Anything better than Russians.
Just a short course in Cossack history, which is clearly richer and more convoluted. But maybe more suited to your limited attention span.

You call Cossacks a caste? The net has let you down, bud. You are not even worthy to mention their name.
They were human beings who loved hard and fought hard for freedom, not fat slobs whose only exercise is to use an opposing thumb to punch in Russian propaganda from your scrumpy-sodden laptop.

Btw don't impugn worldcup'20's integrity. Unfortunately for your theory, he's the good guy who has does done his best with you brainwashed fools.
I have no such compunction ... for the limited time I can be bothered.

Oh so you are from Eastern Ukraine ? Should have just said so I'm sure you would have got more respect.

Even if, the uprising was not at all local, the response has been disgusting. Shelling and bombing by plane of cities is not the way to solve this problem, clearly it has only radicalized and sowed seeds of enduring hatred.
 
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The rebels were attacking the Ukranians with military levels of force. What did you think they were going to do? Sit on their thumbs? Of course they would fight back!!! The targets were and always have been rebel strongholds.

Now that the rebels have put their arms down there is no more fighting. Putin is backing away from the rebels. Eastern Ukraine will never be independent - it is over. Poroshenko has at least allowed a small level of autonomy which even Putin praised him for.
 

awaremind

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The rebels were attacking the Ukranians with military levels of force. What did you think they were going to do? Sit on their thumbs? Of course they would fight back!!! The targets were and always have been rebel strongholds.

Now that the rebels have put their arms down there is no more fighting. Putin is backing away from the rebels. Eastern Ukraine will never be independent - it is over. Poroshenko has at least allowed a small level of autonomy which even Putin praised him for.
There is definately going to be more fighting, the militant people of Eastern Ukraine are going to have to be either appeased or removed by force. There has consistantly been fighting around the airport and Shelling on Donetsk ever since the ceasefire.
 

awaremind

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Unless sanctions on Russia are removed why would the Russians stick to "pulling the pin"? Also non governmental nationalist groups would keep supporting them.
 
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Unless sanctions on Russia are removed why would the Russians stick to "pulling the pin"? Also non governmental nationalist groups would keep supporting them.

Only the Russian military can supply the rebels enough weapons to keep them going against the Ukranians. Non government forces just don't have enough firepower to maintain a war against the legitimate Ukranian government. As has always been the case in these sorts of battles rebel forces have been supplied openly or covertly by a 3rd party.

If full scale war broke out again without Russian support the rebels would be finished in a matter of weeks. We won't see large scale fighting anymore in East Ukraine anymore for this reason, just isolated fighting. The East Ukraine war is effectively over.
 
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The Russians have been asked to put their cards on the table by Dutch who I firmly believe will release it publicly if it is given and shown to be true.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/mh17...-shot-jet-passenger-down-20141028-11cqhx.html

Couldn't help but also notice that no mention of this in the USA media or BBC.

lol. The ruskies have already released a presentation on YouTube which shows nothing other than MH 17 coming apart after being destroyed on radar. Even more amusingly the RT documentary "the untold story of MH 17" actually disproves the ridiculous theory ukranian fighter jets gunned down a commercial airliner in broad daylight. Like any good investigator they won't count out any theory until all other avenues are exhausted.

I won't post again in this forum if Russia's ridiculous lies have any truth to them, that's how confident I am that the rebels brought down MH 17 with a SAM.
 

awaremind

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Its the whitewashing in our media that actually makes it more suspicious.

You guys can't be taken seriously if you're trying to promote the notion that Russian media is more honest than western media. Your Russian "media" reported initially that MH 17 was shot down because it sported red white and blue colours and the attackers mistook it for Putin's plane which was flying from Poland to Moscow. That takes the cake of all the bullshit that comes out of Russia. Anything that comes out of there needs to be taken with a pinch of salt because they are desperately trying not to tie themselves to the rebels who downed the plane.
 

corbomite

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Oh so you are from Eastern Ukraine ? Should have just said so I'm sure you would have got more respect.

Even if, the uprising was not at all local, the response has been disgusting. Shelling and bombing by plane of cities is not the way to solve this problem, clearly it has only radicalized and sowed seeds of enduring hatred.
If you must know ..
Nooo, I'm not from eastern Ukraine, nor do I crave 'respect.' Certainly not on this forum, given the general standard.
I'm just a young born n' bred Australian, who has been there more than once and has experienced the lives they lead, firsthand.
And trust me, it ain't pretty.

There's nothing wrong with criticising the powers-that-be, or having diverse opinions, warranted or otherwise. Yet you need to always be appreciative and mindful of the fact that you live in a place where you can espouse them with no consequence.
As for Putler and his murderous forays, it's a no-brainer ... just an extension of garden variety, pathological, Russian expansionism.
The peaceniks at RT may beg to differ, though. They're on a pay-per-lie deal ... in $$$US of course ... not poohbles.
 
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You guys can't be taken seriously if you're trying to promote the notion that Russian media is more honest than western media. Your Russian "media" reported initially that MH 17 was shot down because it sported red white and blue colours and the attackers mistook it for Putin's plane which was flying from Poland to Moscow. That takes the cake of all the bullshit that comes out of Russia. Anything that comes out of there needs to be taken with a pinch of salt because they are desperately trying not to tie themselves to the rebels who downed the plane.
The Russian media isn't any better than the Western media, but the Western media is just spewing out whatever the USA government wants it to. The track record of USA foreign intelligence agencies over the last 15 years is appalling, yet our media lapped it up without ever questioning it. The Germans have now proven that one of the major points that led to sanctions was a lie in that the Russians did not supply to SAM to the rebels to shoot down MH17, but they obtained it from Ukraine army supplies. So how much else is false?

If you look back you will see that I have always said that the truth is somewhere in the middle of what the Russians say and what NATO countries have said, the problem is too many believe Western media and social media as being factual, they aren't. Just look at the social media photos that Ukraine used to claim that Russian tanks had crossed the border which Western press also lapped up. They didn't even realise that the a number of photos were taken at a completely different time of year! When this was pointed out the press just let it die, did they report that they had been lied to by the Ukraine government? hell no, but if it was a Russian lie it'd be all over the news. As an example of lopsided media, any Russian intelligence plane flying near the border is reported, but somehow we don't say anything about incidences where the NATO countries are the protagonist and incurred into Russia, which has happened recently.

Can't reference the quote but I'll use it anyway
"Blind faith in your leaders will get you killed"
 
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The Germans haven't proven anything other than the rebels shot the plane down. Newsflash for you: the rebels don't have the expertise and knowledge in operating SAM batteries. How do you suppose they operated the BUK? Googl'd it? The fact that the rebels shot down MH 17 proves that the Russians were involved either by repairing an inoperative Ukranian BUK and/or providing a crew to operate the thing.

And just for the record this has nothing to do with the USA and all to do with Ukraine wanting to break free from Russian oppression and improve their living standard in a similar manner to Poland.
 
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