Jumping Through Hoops to Get "Average" (Non-Career) Jobs

[Upgrayedd]

It's incredibly costly to hire new staff, anywhere from productivitiy to all the mundaine things, i hope every business does this TBO.

Good example is say, Woolworths, Every hire they do, everyone from say National HR roles to The bloke turning up at night to re-stock the dairy costs on average, 1800. And the turnover for the first 3 months can be massive. something like 50-60%

Why wouldn't they take every step imageable to limit this and make sure the employee in question is the best fit?

 

[Power Raid]

Thought I'd start this thread to discuss difficulties people have had/are having getting "average" (non-career) jobs.

Are employers making it too difficult to get "average" jobs these days? Just seems like there's a lot of hoops that need to be jumped through to even get (let's be honest) pretty low-level roles (eg. $40,000-$55,000 office jobs) these days.

life is becoming more competitive and for most, opportunities won't open up until your 30s and possibly 40s

employers know 20yo's will be out having fun (as they should be)

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

What's the point of doing any of that?

Working hard and ridiculous hours for no benefit is the definition of futility.

But you don't get career progression unless you put in the hard yards.

 

[Monkey Worshipper]

My question is: Is 7.5 weeks from interview to now a long time to not hear anything if I have the job or not? It feels like a while to me hence the reason why I've posted. I'm starting to think they may have hired someone already.

Alright I have a pearler.

I waited for 5 months to get a callback.

Was in a job and was desperate to get out. Went for an Accounting position in a newish start up PC Gaming industry in Perth, outside a Uni, with Grants. Love Gaming and after changing jobs every 1.5 years was desperate to find something fulfilling.

Nailed the Interview, the only query from them was that my Wife just had a child, I was 34. They were worried about my availability. I explained at great lengths that my wife is a full-time stay at home mother with no passion to go back to work ever....and I'm a workaholic!

Left the interview, and 2 Managers were flying to the States / China for fundraising. Went back to a second round interview 2 weeks after the 1st, made the top 3. Nailed that as well.

Said they'd get back to me in a few days. I let this go for 1 week before I called back. Managers are out. Left my number. Another 3 days and I rang again and spoke to Reception, this time trying to contain my fury. Get the run around again.

They never called me back to say Yay or Nay.... until

I found a dream job 3 months later. 2 months into it I get a phone call from them, "about that position, we really want you".

Ah, no thank you, I love my job.

We'll make it worth your while, if you ever change your mind.

I won't be changing my mind.


Ufrikenbeliable.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Supply and demand, Just because it's a low end pay-scale doesn't mean the employer has to limit his scope of what he wants to hire, Do we dictate what we demand from potential employee's because it's a low paying job?


Mr Jones owns his own business and once he put a position available he'll get 200+ CV's within 2 weeks, is it not his right to then go "well, if the demand is here i want to headhunt the best 30" and put you need X amount of experience or is this unreasonable. Maybe a degree in business helps? Does he accept "yeah just looking for a low end job your offering, By the way i don't do saturdays, and i wont do nights, your move buddy?"

Mr Jones will still find someone, it's easily not his fault for wanting the best available, it's his right, He doesn't have to pay because the demand is so high it's not unreasonable at all.

If the employee is dictating "yeah well its not importaint anyways so i wont do it" well i probably have a fair idea why your posting this on a forum...

But does he hire the most qualified for the lower end job who will be off once something better comes along or does he set his sights a bit lower for someone who may need a little additional training but is in for the long haul and is forever grateful for the opportunity and not just filling a gap waiting for something better?

In the end he'll end up right back where he started from and it will cost him more money all over again.

 

[TheDinosaur]

But does he hire the most qualified for the lower end job who will be off once something better comes along or does he set his sights a bit lower

its a risk you have to be willing to take, and when ive hired its always something to consider - and in most cases, I have been willing to train a junior. But, just because a job "only" pays 50k... why does the more qualified person not deserve it? I've had success and failures with both options.

my tip from reading 100s of applications: if a role is asking for 4 years experience and everything else you don't have. APPLY ANYWAY, put in your cover letter that you believe you can fulfil the role and wait for a call back. Give the employer a reason to want you.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Just a basic office role in customer service or finance, or even a retail/sales role. My experience is mainly in customer service, call centre and retail roles. Have an Arts degree, but it's not much use for anything really (did it more out of interest than expecting a career from it). Want something that doesn't have nights or weekends too.

Are you prepared to move dude?

I have read the first page of this thread, but I came back to this post - I hated working in government, and it's not the best time to be trying to get into government... but I reckon that's what you've described:

- government doesn't hold an Arts degree against you. It's still a degree, and it still demonstrates certain skills and aptitudes.
- there aren't many "office jobs" in the public service that require you to work nights or weekends - and if they do, you get paid ridiculous overtime for doing so.
- it can be the basic office role forever if you want it to be, or there's the possibility of development and upwards mobility.
- customer service experience is bloody critical in a hell of a lot of public service agencies.

You might've missed the 2015 APS Graduate intakes - but I'd have a look around, and also make sure I had a look around state governments that I'd be prepared to work for (ie. prepared to move to).

 

[craffles]

OP getting reamed. Nothing wrong with wanting monday to friday

 

[Hudu Gurusingha]

Thought I'd start this thread to discuss difficulties people have had/are having getting "average" (non-career) jobs.

Are employers making it too difficult to get "average" jobs these days? Just seems like there's a lot of hoops that need to be jumped through to even get (let's be honest) pretty low-level roles (eg. $40,000-$55,000 office jobs) these days.

Every single government job would fit into this mould. F*cking atrociously ridiculous process, cover letters, selection criteria, registration on their impossible to navigate online job board, and often they advertise for roles and drag applicants through a shitstorm of red tape and scrutiny just to say at the end that its been filled internally and that was their intention from the start -they just have to advertise it 'because of policy'. C*nts.

I make particular reference to the Department of Education in WA.

 

[ThePezDispenser]

Thought I'd start this thread to discuss difficulties people have had/are having getting "average" (non-career) jobs.

Are employers making it too difficult to get "average" jobs these days? Just seems like there's a lot of hoops that need to be jumped through to even get (let's be honest) pretty low-level roles (eg. $40,000-$55,000 office jobs) these days.

I cannot help but agree.

Even admin roles are looking for qualifications and experience.

Not a good time to be entering your career of choice.

 

[L_W_P]

Its interesting that the OP is looking for a typical MF 9-5 job when most call centres are moving totally away from that.

These places usually run from 8-8 and will offer option like 4 days at 10 hours, rotating rosters etc.

Ive spent the last 2 years working 10-7 and loved it. Sleep in a little, miss peak hour traffic both ways... Great perks.

Looking at moving to nightshift now that my daughter is older because the pay jump is huge. Talking close to 30%

If you want to work in customer service or on a help desk then you will need to shift away from the 37.5 hour, 9 to 5 mentality. Its just not there going forward.

 

[Unique Name]

OP getting reamed. Nothing wrong with wanting monday to friday

This.

Exactly why I wouldn't hire you. People are lazy, I see it every day. When I interview I will tell them if you give me any worries or put up the 'I don't work weekends' 'I don't like nights' BS then I will get rid of you as quickly as you say hello.

Work hard, do what your told, be enthusiastic, take pride in your work, take the initiative and be pro active! Pretty simple, how often you get that? RARELY.

So somebody wants to work traditional hours and you call him lazy, maybe he has some valid reasons why he wants Mon-Fri, maybe he doesn't.

Doesn't mean he won't take pride in his work or be a pro-active employee. You sound like a ****. Let me guess, you would have been against the fight for the 40 hour work week aswell.

 

[Scotland]

I applied for a job recently which was advertised through Seek. Considering my CV matched the (quite specific) requirements almost to the letter and I had a colleague providing a recommendation to a contact on the inside I was a surprised to get a generic 'not interested' email in response to my application. After a bit of digging it turns out the company are not hiring at all let alone for that specific role, and the contact on the inside (ie my future boss should I have ended up there) was not even informed that the ad had been placed. I swear HR depts just make it up as they go along half the time...

Looking at fairly junior (4+ years experience) professional roles I'm noticing companies are becoming more and more specific in what they ask for. Half the time I look at it and think 'the person you are looking for just does not exist in reality'. It's almost like the candidate they want is where the person who gets the job will be in 5 years time should they stick with it successfully.

As far as 'average' jobs go the world has gone a bit Sandwich Artist. I worked with a girl who had a clerical role within a medium sized organisation. Printing and photocopying, internal/external mail, filling up the tea and coffee in the kitchens - general dogsbody stuff. It was refreshing to hear her say it was a pretty simple job and she did her tasks within her hours and that's what she was paid for. I'd love to see how many hoops she had to jump through to get the gig. No doubt they dressed it up to be something more than it really is.

 

[tige19]

This.



So somebody wants to work traditional hours and you call him lazy, maybe he has some valid reasons why he wants Mon-Fri, maybe he doesn't.

Doesn't mean he won't take pride in his work or be a pro-active employee. You sound like a ****. Let me guess, you would have been against the fight for the 40 hour work week aswell.

As an employer you're expected to adhere to the job specifics, if you can't do that then don't apply. I manage a team of sales guys, they get remunerated very well however a lot of our appointments are eveniongs to ensure all key decision makers are present therefor if you put the road block up regarding working evenings or weekends then I can' t have you, go get a job at Sensis doing customer service and earn 45k.

 

[Green Eggs]

Thought I'd start this thread to discuss difficulties people have had/are having getting "average" (non-career) jobs.

Are employers making it too difficult to get "average" jobs these days? Just seems like there's a lot of hoops that need to be jumped through to even get (let's be honest) pretty low-level roles (eg. $40,000-$55,000 office jobs) these days.

Nope. It's actually aligning a lot better than it ever has and it means that companies aren't faced with high attrition and/or people who can't cut the mustard.

If your application is good enough, you'll get an interview. If you interview well, you'll get the job. There are no hidden tricks, no conspiracies and I'm a prime example that you don't need lots of experience or education to get a good job in a different business.

In regards to management, I am a team manager and it makes sense that if you're going from a management role that you have at least a couple of years worth of experience.

It seems like you're frustrated at the system, but what is the other option? Because it's a low-level role the business should take on someone who doesn't show the capabilities to perform in the role? C'mon mate, it doesn't work that way.

 

[The Coup]

If you want a 9-5 with a good wage and conditions, join something that is highly unionised.

Most likely public sector, or an industry that used to be public but has recently gone private but has maintained high levels of union membership.

No union = no rights = no money

That's why the basic jobs are getting shitter. Or moving/moved to Manila/Delhi.

 

[Max zero]

Its interesting that the OP is looking for a typical MF 9-5 job when most call centres are moving totally away from that.

These places usually run from 8-8 and will offer option like 4 days at 10 hours, rotating rosters etc.

Ive spent the last 2 years working 10-7 and loved it. Sleep in a little, miss peak hour traffic both ways... Great perks.

Looking at moving to nightshift now that my daughter is older because the pay jump is huge. Talking close to 30%

If you want to work in customer service or on a help desk then you will need to shift away from the 37.5 hour, 9 to 5 mentality. Its just not there going forward.

Yep need to broaden your horizons OP. Everyone wants a decent paying job with good hours in an office. Employers know that and can afford to be picky.

The trick is to find a job that you don't mind but other people can't stand. For me that edge was shift work. The willingness (maybe even the preference for it) has given me a ton of job security (never been fired and had contact from the majority of my employers asking if I would be willing to return) and heaps (100k+) of money.

Find your edge/niche and work it. If act like everyone else why should be surprised when you get treated like everyone else?

 

[The Coup]

life is becoming more competitive and for most, opportunities won't open up until your 30s and possibly 40s

employers know 20yo's will be out having fun (as they should be)

I did it arse backwards and agree. Was a very serious 21 year old.

 

[radiojake]

browsing for jobs the other day as I'll need another job over summer while school is out, anyway, came across some restaurant/pub looking for a dish pig *TWO YEARS EXPERIENCE A MUST*

Are you kidding? Not that I particuarly want to be a dish pig again (served nearly 12 months as a dishpig in the Adelaide Casino kitchen as an 18 year old), but in what kind of world do you need two years experience in order to wash dishes?


This is obviously a very low end job, but I feel like it sums up what the OP is trying to get at - having to go over the top to get menial work is depressing

 

[Power Raid]

browsing for jobs the other day as I'll need another job over summer while school is out, anyway, came across some restaurant/pub looking for a dish pig *TWO YEARS EXPERIENCE A MUST*

Are you kidding? Not that I particuarly want to be a dish pig again (served nearly 12 months as a dishpig in the Adelaide Casino kitchen as an 18 year old), but in what kind of world do you need two years experience in order to wash dishes?


This is obviously a very low end job, but I feel like it sums up what the OP is trying to get at - having to go over the top to get menial work is depressing

just ignore it and apply

I think these hurdles are designed to deter people who are easily defeated

 

[The Coup]

browsing for jobs the other day as I'll need another job over summer while school is out, anyway, came across some restaurant/pub looking for a dish pig *TWO YEARS EXPERIENCE A MUST*

Are you kidding? Not that I particuarly want to be a dish pig again (served nearly 12 months as a dishpig in the Adelaide Casino kitchen as an 18 year old), but in what kind of world do you need two years experience in order to wash dishes?


This is obviously a very low end job, but I feel like it sums up what the OP is trying to get at - having to go over the top to get menial work is depressing

I don't know what to tell you honestly. I'm in my early 30's (in between Gen X and Gen Y) and the job market for each generation has been different in my experience:

Early 90's - there were * all jobs in the early 90's and Austudy was brought in, lots of people just ****ed off to Europe for a year or two to get some work and experience and earn pounds

Late 90's - Dotcom bubble was in full swing so anyone in IT was making good coin and had prospects. Banking was picking up as well with the deregulation allowing lenders to expand their books.

Mid 00's - Insanely easy to find work if you looked. There were a bunch of super cheap traineeships under Howard (they were pretty exploitative, but if I didn't take up that $12,000 a year traineeship straight out of high school I'd have been on the dole and possibly in trouble quickly). Once you had your experience, if you were in any industry related to construction, banking, lending or mining you could change jobs every few months and get a huge payrise. Companies were headhunting low level traders and administrators, it was excellent. There was a true labor shortage and all was right with the world.

Then 2008 happened:



I went back to uni part time and as a result I've seen how tough it is for grads now. Back when I took up the traineeship that barely paid for my public transport use, a kid with say a commerce degree at 23 would have been a MASSIVE commodity for any business.

But today I mean, there's no federal government jobs, very few state government jobs (that's your biggest two employers in Australia right there, by far), the banks aren't hiring except in the dodgy financial planner arm and seriously, don't.

Lots of the smaller banks like Wizard etc. were eaten up by the big banks, so you can't go there. Mining and construction is dominated by 457 workers and traineeships and apprenticeships are practically gone, as well as TAFE funding to learn new skills. Anything remotely related to the automotive industry is gone too.

Now Australians like to talk about small and medium business owners a lot, but by far our majority of workers actually work for huge institutions like the government, the banks, the mining companies etc. because we're not a country built on small business or medium business, we're a big business nation and when big business stops hiring we really are quite beholden to that.

I honestly don't know. Take what you can find and hold onto it because there's no certainty at the moment career wise for anyone.

 

[Power Raid]

I don't know what to tell you honestly. I'm in my early 30's (in between Gen X and Gen Y) and the job market for each generation has been different in my experience:

Early 90's - there were **** all jobs in the early 90's and Austudy was brought in, lots of people just ****** off to Europe for a year or two to get some work and experience and earn pounds

Late 90's - Dotcom bubble was in full swing so anyone in IT was making good coin and had prospects. Banking was picking up as well with the deregulation allowing lenders to expand their books.

Mid 00's - Insanely easy to find work if you looked. There were a bunch of super cheap traineeships under Howard (they were pretty exploitative, but if I didn't take up that $12,000 a year traineeship straight out of high school I'd have been on the dole and possibly in trouble quickly). Once you had your experience, if you were in any industry related to construction, banking, lending or mining you could change jobs every few months and get a huge payrise. Companies were headhunting low level traders and administrators, it was excellent. There was a true labor shortage and all was right with the world.

Then 2008 happened:



I went back to uni part time and as a result I've seen how tough it is for grads now. Back when I took up the traineeship that barely paid for my public transport use, a kid with say a commerce degree at 23 would have been a MASSIVE commodity for any business.

But today I mean, there's no federal government jobs, very few state government jobs (that's your biggest two employers in Australia right there, by far), the banks aren't hiring except in the dodgy financial planner arm and seriously, don't.

Lots of the smaller banks like Wizard etc. were eaten up by the big banks, so you can't go there. Mining and construction is dominated by 457 workers and traineeships and apprenticeships are practically gone, as well as TAFE funding to learn new skills. Anything remotely related to the automotive industry is gone too.

Now Australians like to talk about small and medium business owners a lot, but by far our majority of workers actually work for huge institutions like the government, the banks, the mining companies etc. because we're not a country built on small business or medium business, we're a big business nation and when big business stops hiring we really are quite beholden to that.

I honestly don't know. Take what you can find and hold onto it because there's no certainty at the moment career wise for anyone.

yep fair comment and it highlights where we are at in the cycle; and yes I remember the late 80s and early 90s well.......it was tough.

there is no secret to building a career in tougher times other than be less fussy and realise you may have to take a job sideways or backwards to move forward. oh and you may have to move cities.

I feel next year will be a tough one for the globe and may see China "catch a cold" which means we may "catch the flu". I hope I am wrong but once we are through next year, I feel the global economies will be firing again. The only risk to that is war which I can't see for at least another 8 years.

 

[Max zero]

yep fair comment and it highlights where we are at in the cycle; and yes I remember the late 80s and early 90s well.......it was tough.

there is no secret to building a career in tougher times other than be less fussy and realise you may have to take a job sideways or backwards to move forward. oh and you may have to move cities.

I feel next year will be a tough one for the globe and may see China "catch a cold" which means we may "catch the flu". I hope I am wrong but once we are through next year, I feel the global economies will be firing again. The only risk to that is war which I can't see for at least another 8 years.

I'm not so confident. I think the US economy is a bit of a sham. There is still the real estate bubble in China. Finally there is the blatant manipulation of the gold/silver price (demand is way up, supply is way down yet price falls?) in order to keep fiat currency stable.

 

[Power Raid]

I'm not so confident. I think the US economy is a bit of a sham. There is still the real estate bubble in China. Finally there is the blatant manipulation of the gold/silver price (demand is way up, supply is way down yet price falls?) in order to keep fiat currency stable.

I have am almost completely out of equities that we don't control, getting rid of cash, getting rid of property and buying up hard assets

this is a defensive more until I have a better gauge on things

 

[Hamingja]

I cannot help but agree.

Even admin roles are looking for qualifications and experience.

Not a good time to be entering your career of choice.

I think a lot of people giving advice on here (and whirlpool too) are so out of touch with the current marketplace.

I finished my degree in Melbourne two years ago. Distinction average from a G8 university, worked all the way through uni as a duty manager so I have all the leadership, teamwork, communication skills bs covered for interviews.

Getting a grad position with financial institutions was impossible. Went for one at a huge firm turning over billions in revenue. Got to the assessment centre stage and the HR consultant congratulates everyone in the room for making the top 30 from 5000 applicants. They had one job on offer....

So you lower your sights. I would have taken any 40k admin/data entry/mailroom/whatever other lackey position to get a foot in the door. I must have applied for hundreds. Some I'd try with my degree on my resume, some not and just embellish the amount of admin work that I did in my part time job. Nothing worked.

I ended up conceeding defeat and moving to Adelaide, where it is cheaper to live and I have some prospect of owning my own home before I turn 100. I work in a distribution centre, a great use of intellectual capital.

It is just such a waste of money educating people and having practically zero opportunities for training and development of graduates but I guess without tertiary education the youth unemployment rate would be running at 50%.

It pisses me off as the government only give a * about creating jobs in the construction industry and propping up dead end manufacturing jobs.

Maybe a Commerce degree is a bad choice in this day and age but engineering/IT/nursing/teaching etc graduates are facing the same issue.

20 years time and there will be a generation of highly educated and (effectively) low skilled employees.

The government will open the VISA floodgate in response. Nothing like seeing foreigners come in and take a job that you incurred a large debt being trained for. It has the potential to get very nasty down the track.

The cherry on top is that the government has made the changes to HECS/HELP in preparation to flog the debt off to private firms. I am in a position to pay my debt off, many are not, they will be chained to an interest bearing debt they have no prospect of repaying.