Asia All things China.

[John]

China is now more important to Australia than ever due to economic circumstances. With that being in the back of my mind I have delved into a couple history primers on China that left me hankering for more. So with that a thread for all items that are found that may be of interest.

To get started one of the things that we are all aware of is that Mao Zedong is considered to be as culpable for the deaths of as many in the last century as were Hitler and Stalin. A figure of 40 millions has been quoted with the vast majority being from famine caused by his political and economic policies.

Be that as it may I have found that China has in reality a rather long and appalling history of death by war and famine from the dawn of its history that beggars belief in comparison to the rest of the world. Some examples as follows.

It is thought that Genghis Khan was behind the deaths of maybe up to 40 million when the worlds population may have only been 450 millions at best.
The Fall of the Ming Dynasty in the 17 century up to 25 million.
The Taiping Rebellion of the 1850's was thought to be up to 20 million. The part I find astonishing with this event is that just a little after this the US Civil War, a war that we are very aware of due to the cultural influence of it being an English speaking nation, had a death toll of 620,000 but the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and all that went with it is little known to the west.
An Lushan Revolt 756bc has had figures bandied around from 13 million to up to 36 million. Figures that even at the low end are astonishing considering that the world population may have been 200 million.
Fall of the Yuan Dynasty with 7 million lost in the 4th century.
The Civil War from 1928 to 1937 has 2 million military casualties.

The Tienanmen Square Massacre was thought to have been in the hundreds at best and a couple of thousand at worst. By Chinese standards this was nothing considering the past. Should we have been that shocked considering?

 

[clogged]

Great thread. The An Lushan Rebellion has always fascinated me.

The Taiping Rebellion is probably whitewashed because it occurred with the complicity of France and the UK. Same as how the late 1870s famine in India, which killed more people than the Holodomor, is forgotten despite it being due to the British Empire's laissez faire policies.

 

[The_Reaper]

My grandfather claimed to be descended from a Chinese General in the first Opium War

Absolutely no way of verifying it though

 

[LennyStarkiller]

2 of my favourite Chinese movies are The Warlords, which is set during the Taiping Rebellion, and Red Cliff which is based on the Battle of Red Cliffs prior to the Three Kingdoms period in 208-209AD. If you're into Chinese war movies then these should be near the top of your list.

 

[John]

I have the following unread and look forward to eventually reading them. I have picked these up at book store closures, Lifeline bookfest etc all for not much at all. Mao's Great Famine for example is a mint hardback for $2. Seriously what is the world coming to.

Anyway comments appreciated if any have been read.

To China With Love: The Lives and times of the Protestant Missionaries in China 1860-1900 By Patt Barr.
Mao the Unknown Story by Jung Chang
Khubilai Khans Lost Fleet by James Delgado.
Mao's Great Famine by Frank Dikotter
The Cambridge Illustrated History by Patricia Ebray
China A History by John Keay
All Under Heaven by Rayne Kruger
The Opium War by Julia Lovell
1421 and 1434 both by Gavin Menzies.
Modern China by Rana Mitta
Autumn In the Heavenly Kingdom by Stephen Platt
The Walled Kingdom by Witold Rodzinski
Gods Chinese Son by Jonathan Spence
Restless Empire by Odd Westad.

I have read the following and all this year.
A Brief History of Khubilai Khan by Jonathan Clements.
I would have thought that the "A Brief History" series would be aimed at the reader who has a passing interest in the specific subject and just wants to be educated with out delving into the more academic tomes that may be available. I would have thought that the "A Brief History" series would also require good footnotes, a chronology and a bibliography as to where to go next if ones interest is piqued. Most of all it should cover its subject with an easy to read and accessible text. This book covers all that is required of a brief history. Sources covered and explained. Made the subject matter a breeze to read and best of all left one hankering for more. I have now read a few of these A Brief History's and they are in general very good with the odd one being superb in doing what they should set out to do. This one by Jonathan Clements is as good as it gets. Highly recommended to the lay reader.
A Short History of China by Gordon Kerr.
Very good primer. Only 160 pages! My knowledge of Chinese history was, and still is to tell the truth, very limited. But this nice primer was the perfect introduction. Gordon Kerr has written a fast paced short history that had me salivating for more.
A Brief History of the Chinese Dynasties by Bamber Gascoigne.
My knowledge of China was limited to the primer above and the appetite was certainly whetted. This "a Brief History" has no less whetted the interest and China is now a subject I will read with anticipation when I get around to the list above. There is, obviously, 3 millennia of history to cover and if I have a little bit of criticism of the book it tends to struggle to cover the dynasties themselves. Be that as it may what could the book have been called? The coverage is therefore limited and so discusses specific historical events more known to the westerner. Confucianism and the Boxer rebellion for example. But for those such as me who knew little as to why the Chinese have written characters through to the repulsive binding of women's feet this brief history imparted knowledge is ideal to whet the appetite for future reading of this fascinating people and it stranger than fantasy history.

Now to find time!!!

 

[little graham]

China is now more important to Australia than ever due to economic circumstances. With that being in the back of my mind I have delved into a couple history primers on China that left me hankering for more. So with that a thread for all items that are found that may be of interest.

To get started one of the things that we are all aware of is that Mao Zedong is considered to be as culpable for the deaths of as many in the last century as were Hitler and Stalin. A figure of 40 millions has been quoted with the vast majority being from famine caused by his political and economic policies.

Be that as it may I have found that China has in reality a rather long and appalling history of death by war and famine from the dawn of its history that beggars belief in comparison to the rest of the world. Some examples as follows.

It is thought that Genghis Khan was behind the deaths of maybe up to 40 million when the worlds population may have only been 450 millions at best.
The Fall of the Ming Dynasty in the 17 century up to 25 million.
The Taiping Rebellion of the 1850's was thought to be up to 20 million. The part I find astonishing with this event is that just a little after this the US Civil War, a war that we are very aware of due to the cultural influence of it being an English speaking nation, had a death toll of 620,000 but the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and all that went with it is little known to the west.
An Lushan Revolt 756bc has had figures bandied around from 13 million to up to 36 million. Figures that even at the low end are astonishing considering that the world population may have been 200 million.
Fall of the Yuan Dynasty with 7 million lost in the 4th century.
The Civil War from 1928 to 1937 has 2 million military casualties.

The Tienanmen Square Massacre was thought to have been in the hundreds at best and a couple of thousand at worst. By Chinese standards this was nothing considering the past. Should we have been that shocked considering?

This is nasty stuff. China has done so much good in this world and last century was victim to horrific capitalist wars. Do you intend on sharing those facts. The reality is if we're judging a nation on death tolls like you've posted, our country and major allies have a far more disgraceful and also recent record.

Lets look at Chinese nutrition and medicine? compare them to say, we're as good as any.

 

[John]

This is nasty stuff. China has done so much good in this world and last century was victim to horrific capitalist wars. Do you intend on sharing those facts. The reality is if we're judging a nation on death tolls like you've posted, our country and major allies have a far more disgraceful and also recent record.

Lets look at Chinese nutrition and medicine? compare them to say, we're as good as any.

Ok.

 

[John]

One of the joys one has when starting a thread on a history board and calling it "All Things China" is that one can then look at various other historical events etc that cover All Things China

With that in mind one of the giants of Chinese history is Confucius. As to Confucius I have to admit I have read very little in terms of his life. He was extensively referred to in one of the books that I read and that was of great interest and I did intend to get to him eventually along with various other events and people of interest.

Us westerner's do tend to like to quote him though.
I am fond of this rather apt quote by Confucius. "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." David Dunning and Justin Kruger must have been very aware of this quote when they stated ""the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".

I suppose that we can thank China for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[The Coup]

This is a fantastic book

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/sep/02/opium-war-julia-lovell-review

Its huge and really thorough, paints a great picture of all the individuals involved and the complete balls up England made with China, and how that relationship more than any other drives their modern day nationalism (yes, much moreso than what Japan did to them in WW2).

All the tactics the English used against the Chinese in the Opium wars, are considered modern day capitalist business tactics and are largely legalised (and in fact are used against all of us).

 

[Eric Blair]

China is now more important to Australia than ever due to economic circumstances. With that being in the back of my mind I have delved into a couple history primers on China that left me hankering for more. So with that a thread for all items that are found that may be of interest.

To get started one of the things that we are all aware of is that Mao Zedong is considered to be as culpable for the deaths of as many in the last century as were Hitler and Stalin. A figure of 40 millions has been quoted with the vast majority being from famine caused by his political and economic policies.

Be that as it may I have found that China has in reality a rather long and appalling history of death by war and famine from the dawn of its history that beggars belief in comparison to the rest of the world. Some examples as follows.

It is thought that Genghis Khan was behind the deaths of maybe up to 40 million when the worlds population may have only been 450 millions at best.
The Fall of the Ming Dynasty in the 17 century up to 25 million.
The Taiping Rebellion of the 1850's was thought to be up to 20 million. The part I find astonishing with this event is that just a little after this the US Civil War, a war that we are very aware of due to the cultural influence of it being an English speaking nation, had a death toll of 620,000 but the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and all that went with it is little known to the west.
An Lushan Revolt 756bc has had figures bandied around from 13 million to up to 36 million. Figures that even at the low end are astonishing considering that the world population may have been 200 million.
Fall of the Yuan Dynasty with 7 million lost in the 4th century.
The Civil War from 1928 to 1937 has 2 million military casualties.

The Tienanmen Square Massacre was thought to have been in the hundreds at best and a couple of thousand at worst. By Chinese standards this was nothing considering the past. Should we have been that shocked considering?

Romance of the Three Kingdoms
/thread

 

[John]

Romance of the Three Kingdoms
/thread

"The empire, long united, must divide; long divided, must unite. Thus it has ever been "
The trouble is that you are asking that the thread end on a novel? Or have I got that wrong? By the way not read said novel but intend to now. (Well one day when I get past a heck of a lot waiting in the wings). No matter. Nice short and sharp post Mr Orwell and food for thought.



Based on census there seems little romantic about the Three Kingdoms. The brilliant Matthew White writes

During the century of peace and prosperity under the later Han dynasty, the Chinese population grew magnificently, but when that peace dissolved, the population crashed. The Han census of 140 CE counted 9.7 million households and almost 50 million individuals living in the empire. When the Jin dynasty counted the inhabitants in the reunified empire in 280 CE, after a century of civil war, their census found only 2.5 million households and 16 million individuals.6

The 34 million missing people were probably not all dead, but how do we turn this lone solid statistic into a credible death toll? Usually, if I have a lot of different estimates for a death toll, I prefer to average them out using the median, but in this case, there is only the one number—take it or leave it. On the other hand, I’ve discovered a rough shortcut that sometimes produces a sensible middle ground out of wildly differing estimates: the geometric mean of the upper and lower limits of plausibility often approximates the average of many more mundane estimates.7

In this case, the absolute maximum plausible death toll is obvious: maybe all those 34 million missing people actually died in the collapse of Han civilization. Now, what’s the absolute minimum who could have died? For a population drop to be this noticeable, a half million at the very least must have died. That would come to 1 percent of China’s population, and only about 6,500 a year. The geometric mean of these two numbers is around 4.1 million, which is the death toll I’ve used to rank this event.

 

[Eric Blair]

"The empire, long united, must divide; long divided, must unite. Thus it has ever been "
The trouble is that you are asking that the thread end on a novel? Or have I got that wrong? By the way not read said novel but intend to now. (Well one day when I get past a heck of a lot waiting in the wings). No matter. Nice short and sharp post Mr Orwell and food for thought.



Based on census there seems little romantic about the Three Kingdoms. The brilliant Matthew White writes

apologies for the brevity of said post. Intended post to be mere food for thought. it is a fascinating period of Chinese history with larger than life characters like Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang, each of whom tried to leave their mark. The period of the Three kingdoms made for one of the most epic of epics in literature.

The only comparison I could make in western history is probably the civil wars of the roman republic.

 

[JoondalupJ]

China is now more important to Australia than ever due to economic circumstances. With that being in the back of my mind I have delved into a couple history primers on China that left me hankering for more. So with that a thread for all items that are found that may be of interest.

To get started one of the things that we are all aware of is that Mao Zedong is considered to be as culpable for the deaths of as many in the last century as were Hitler and Stalin. A figure of 40 millions has been quoted with the vast majority being from famine caused by his political and economic policies.

Be that as it may I have found that China has in reality a rather long and appalling history of death by war and famine from the dawn of its history that beggars belief in comparison to the rest of the world. Some examples as follows.

It is thought that Genghis Khan was behind the deaths of maybe up to 40 million when the worlds population may have only been 450 millions at best.
The Fall of the Ming Dynasty in the 17 century up to 25 million.
The Taiping Rebellion of the 1850's was thought to be up to 20 million. The part I find astonishing with this event is that just a little after this the US Civil War, a war that we are very aware of due to the cultural influence of it being an English speaking nation, had a death toll of 620,000 but the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and all that went with it is little known to the west.
An Lushan Revolt 756bc has had figures bandied around from 13 million to up to 36 million. Figures that even at the low end are astonishing considering that the world population may have been 200 million.
Fall of the Yuan Dynasty with 7 million lost in the 4th century.
The Civil War from 1928 to 1937 has 2 million military casualties.

The Tienanmen Square Massacre was thought to have been in the hundreds at best and a couple of thousand at worst. By Chinese standards this was nothing considering the past. Should we have been that shocked considering?

Numbers , that's all, numbers only numbers. As bad as that sounds , the fact that population is a major factor in anything Chinese makes the numbers situation just that , numbers, people are ants , totalitarianism is what is essential for massive populations. Centuries ago, numbers less, but in relative
terms just the same , huge population for an area. Easy to decide to wipe a few million from the population to help the rest , or your tribe.

So when your population is so massive huge loss of life means stuff all. Terrible way to see things , makes you feel vulnerable, but its the truth , if you need to change or you just want to change , removing 20 million is zilch, Russia did it on a lesser scale but Stalin could boast 20 mil. . We are one f****d animal hey?

The history of the planet tells stories of all the magnificent achievements of different nations and races all over the world , but with all that we are still capable of slaughtering millions what ever era. But the Chinese have had huge numbers apparently for much longer than other parts of the world , perhaps a bit like India, so killing lots and lots to gain something new or different means stuff all. We are all ants.

Ghengis 40 million ? Who would know? Same as the rest of the figures , how would you really know ancient figures , they are educated guesses, later history is a bit different , we lovely humans began to actually count the numbers we killed.

In the ancient times , they weren't counting they were just killing, who knows. But it could be on us again soon.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I have the following unread and look forward to eventually reading them. I have picked these up at book store closures, Lifeline bookfest etc all for not much at all. Mao's Great Famine for example is a mint hardback for $2. Seriously what is the world coming to.

Anyway comments appreciated if any have been read.

To China With Love: The Lives and times of the Protestant Missionaries in China 1860-1900 By Patt Barr.
Mao the Unknown Story by Jung Chang
Khubilai Khans Lost Fleet by James Delgado.
Mao's Great Famine by Frank Dikotter
The Cambridge Illustrated History by Patricia Ebray
China A History by John Keay
All Under Heaven by Rayne Kruger
The Opium War by Julia Lovell
1421 and 1434 both by Gavin Menzies.
Modern China by Rana Mitta
Autumn In the Heavenly Kingdom by Stephen Platt
The Walled Kingdom by Witold Rodzinski
Gods Chinese Son by Jonathan Spence
Restless Empire by Odd Westad.

I have read the following and all this year.
A Brief History of Khubilai Khan by Jonathan Clements.
I would have thought that the "A Brief History" series would be aimed at the reader who has a passing interest in the specific subject and just wants to be educated with out delving into the more academic tomes that may be available. I would have thought that the "A Brief History" series would also require good footnotes, a chronology and a bibliography as to where to go next if ones interest is piqued. Most of all it should cover its subject with an easy to read and accessible text. This book covers all that is required of a brief history. Sources covered and explained. Made the subject matter a breeze to read and best of all left one hankering for more. I have now read a few of these A Brief History's and they are in general very good with the odd one being superb in doing what they should set out to do. This one by Jonathan Clements is as good as it gets. Highly recommended to the lay reader.
A Short History of China by Gordon Kerr.
Very good primer. Only 160 pages! My knowledge of Chinese history was, and still is to tell the truth, very limited. But this nice primer was the perfect introduction. Gordon Kerr has written a fast paced short history that had me salivating for more.
A Brief History of the Chinese Dynasties by Bamber Gascoigne.
My knowledge of China was limited to the primer above and the appetite was certainly whetted. This "a Brief History" has no less whetted the interest and China is now a subject I will read with anticipation when I get around to the list above. There is, obviously, 3 millennia of history to cover and if I have a little bit of criticism of the book it tends to struggle to cover the dynasties themselves. Be that as it may what could the book have been called? The coverage is therefore limited and so discusses specific historical events more known to the westerner. Confucianism and the Boxer rebellion for example. But for those such as me who knew little as to why the Chinese have written characters through to the repulsive binding of women's feet this brief history imparted knowledge is ideal to whet the appetite for future reading of this fascinating people and it stranger than fantasy history.

Now to find time!!!

Reading gives wonderful information and fabulous stories , whether the figures and the stories are exact will never be known. So enjoy , but never believe everything you read.
Even if some highly educated history expert writes it.
They can never know for sure. Tha include numbers too.

 

[John]

Ergh yeah ok.

 

[John]

This is a fantastic book

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/sep/02/opium-war-julia-lovell-review

Its huge and really thorough, paints a great picture of all the individuals involved and the complete balls up England made with China, and how that relationship more than any other drives their modern day nationalism (yes, much moreso than what Japan did to them in WW2).

All the tactics the English used against the Chinese in the Opium wars, are considered modern day capitalist business tactics and are largely legalised (and in fact are used against all of us).

Have made a start on this and a couple of chapters in it is a fascinating read.

Interesting comments in the Introduction about the Communist party using the opium trade to not only denounce western imperialism and capitalism but also to use as "proof" (my word) that implied the nation got what it deserved from 1842 to 1949, the "century of humiliation" and that the coming of the party saved the nation from those events. The author implies that the state media may use the Opium Wars against the west but "eyewitness Chinese accounts" blamed not external nations such as the British but "disorganisation and cowardice of it's own officials and armies". The author is not, and I repeat the word not, lessoning the impact of British imperialism by those comments. In fact the author discusses the "racist stridency of many 19th and 20th century western attitudes to China" by "politicians, soldiers and popular commentators." in detail.

 

[The Coup]

Oh yeah Lovell basically blames everyone involved, which is fair.

she even kind of gives the English a pass for the whole thing by implying China should have just traded openly from the start if I recall.

 

[John]

Interesting item on the Terracotta Army.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news...terracotta-warriors-were-replicas-real-020100

 

[John]

http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/dizzying-heights-prehistoric-farming-on-the-roof-of-the-world

Archaeology report from Cambridge University. Very interesting.

 

[little graham]

when one derives water from a well, one must never forget who dug that well

China's very own proverb for Edward Gough Whitlam

Here was a country thats been smashed for centuries by capitalists and their wars, then shut of the world when they rose to their own two feet, paying homage to the first man to show them the respect they deserve.

 

[John]

when one derives water from a well, one must never forget who dug that well

China's very own proverb for Edward Gough Whitlam

Here was a country thats been smashed for centuries by capitalists and their wars, then shut of the world when they rose to their own two feet, paying homage to the first man to show them the respect they deserve.

http://whitlam.org/gough_whitlam/china/Enduring_Effects_and_Personal_Connections

The quote is "When you draw water from the well, you must not forget those who dug the well" and it is also known to be used in Japan.

If you are interested you can purchase it here for $42 bucks.

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/86134497/chinese-calligraphy-drinking-the-water

and I suspect as much as would like to think that it was China's very own proverb for our Gough it is in fact Traditional as Gough's website itself says.

 

[little graham]

http://whitlam.org/gough_whitlam/china/Enduring_Effects_and_Personal_Connections

The quote is "When you draw water from the well, you must not forget those who dug the well" and it is also known to be used in Japan.

If you are interested you can purchase it here for $42 bucks.

https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/86134497/chinese-calligraphy-drinking-the-water

and I suspect as much as would like to think that it was China's very own proverb for our Gough it is in fact Traditional as Gough's website itself says.

So you admit the violence capatlism caused in china for centuries?

 

[John]

So you admit the violence capatlism caused in china for centuries?

Indeed. Capatlism (sic) was also the cause of the fall of the Jin dynasty.

 

[little graham]

Many of the researchers involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials in 1949; most remained under American Forces occupation. These researchers were not tried for war crimes by the Americans so that the information and experience gained in bio-weapons could be co-opted into the US biological warfare program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

I would think that Americans should be paying compensation to the chinese as result of benefiting from the suffering of their people at the hands of the Japanese, as result of covering up the war crimes and protecting the guilty.

Yet most believe that the Chinese have a problem with human rights.

 

[John]

Tell that to up to a possible 20 to 45 million dead with an estimated 6% of those also dead after human rights abuse external of the starvation of the rest under the forced collectivisation during The Great Leaf Forward that China has not had human rights problems.