Certified Legendary Thread 34 Essendon* Players suspended for doping violations - No opposition fans. Check OP for thread rules

If Essendon* gets slapped on the wrist with a wet lettuce leaf, I will .......


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BlueHeeler25

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[sorry to pick parts of your post but I didn't want my reply to be to long and un readable. I don't disagree with the parts I have removed]
It's an interesting view, but one which appears to be very subjective.

The press conference you are referring to was in regards to a report published by the crime commission which dealt with a doping epidemic in Australian sport. While the epidemic at professional level has not been found to be as wide spread as first believed performance and image enhancing drug use in Australia has been found to be at epidemic levels. It was obvious that at such a press conference the head of the national anti doping body should be available for comment as it was in the public interest. Being at the press conference in my opinion does not mean that ASADA was taking sides or being coerced into taking up any agenda at all other than it's own legislated agenda.

Also, the supreme court found that ASADA acted within it's legislated power to conduct it's "own" investigation. It found that;

28 ASADA’s purpose was as I have already described; that is, to investigate possible anti-doping violations. The “harnessing” of the “compulsory powers” of the AFL needs to be put in context. ASADA was not using any power of coercion or compulsion or any power of sanction under the Act or NAD Scheme. Mr Hird and the 34 Players could refuse to produce documents to, and to answer questions put to them by, ASADA or the AFL, but in doing so would breach their contractual obligations with Essendon and the AFL. Whether or not the 34 Players (or even Mr Hird) felt they had no choice to answer questions in front of ASADA and the AFL, is not to the point. The legal consequences of Mr Hird and the 34 Players voluntarily entering into the contractual regime with Essendon and the AFL, and subjecting themselves to the Player Rules and AFL Code, included undertaking certain obligations and relinquishing certain rights. One such right was the right to claim the privilege against self-incrimination before the AFL subject to the carve out in r 1.9 of the Player Rules. Similarly, obligations were imposed on Mr Hird and the 34 Players to co-operate with the AFL and ASADA in investigations. There is no suggestion in these proceedings that Mr Hird or any of the 34 Players did not understand the nature of the contractual obligations undertaken, or the rights they were giving up, in return for the right or privilege to play or coach AFL football for Essendon in the AFL competition.

The supreme court also found that ASADA had not breached it's mandate even under the pressure being applied to it by the minister and the AFL.

I do not regard such pressure as giving rise to any dereliction by Ms Andruska in respect of her responsibilities, under the Act or the NAD Scheme.

It's also legislated as part of ASADAs function that;

21 CEO’s functions
(1) The CEO has the following functions:
(j)cooperate with the States and Territories, and with sporting organisations, to carry out initiatives about sports doping and safety matters;

Yes but the report was not published by ASADA - a body that is meant to be independent from all outside influences. On that basis I do not believe it is appropriate for it to participate in press conferences relating to government or matters relating to other bodies/commissions. The public interest dictates that ASADA not just be, but also be seen to be independent. Public confidence was breached when ASADA was present, particularly given the emotive words used by the then Labor Government. Add to that we then had officials from ASADA providing media commentary in coming months and you can see why people criticise them.

You have quoted the judges findings in the initial decision - my contention is he got it wrong and it will be over turned. Maybe not at the Court of Appeal but if it goes to the High Court I believe it will be. The power in section 21 I believe will be read to be limited by the overarching purpose of ASADA to be independent, such that the CEO must cooperate and work with govt/sporting organisations etc in relation to initiatives (e.g. awareness campaigns, testing, policies etc) BUT when it comes to investigations and enforcement the need for independence means it must act by itself.
 

BlueHeeler25

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The Hot Topic Board, which has several threads devoted to the Essendon saga and has an enormous array of opinions, some of them well informed, some not, but a great source of food for thought.

A detailed and well argued post like yours would go well there and it would also invite a detailed and well argued rebuttal from someone as informed as yourself, whereas I get my information from the HTB, this thread, and reading most things that come out of the media. That is where you will get a good argument, not from me, but I will enjoy following it.

I did not imply that I am an expert on the subject. Thrawn is a well informed and smart poster who was in my view disrespected by another poster who showed considerable ignorance in doing so. Hence my response.

By the way, be careful making statements like the bolded bit on this site. Your credibility is on the line. And I think if the facts were as clear cut as you believe we would not be where we are in this saga.

Unlike you, who tells other posters they have no idea, I won't ever say that about someone.

As for my credibility being on the line - happy for it to be so. Isn't it every time anyone posts something? I only ever post on things I know something about. Law I know a hell of a lot about. Economics/politics/tennis you also can't shut me up.

Motor vehicles, anything to do with a trade, anything outdoors or scary (e.g. rock climbing) I would be the dumbest person on this forum and would just STFU. Oh and Art, drama, ballet etc - snore.
 
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BlueHeeler25

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Oh and please nobody take my comments as sympathy for Essendon or condoning what they did. If that was my son they did that to I would beat the smirk of Saint James' face.

I hope the club burns in hell, suffers worse than we did for salary cap breaches and ideally is kicked out of the competition.

But I doubt any of that will happen.
 
As long as every Tom, Dick, Jimmy or Jono that had something to do with it gets proper justice. I think that's something we can all agree on.
 
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Public confidence was breached when ASADA was present, particularly given the emotive words used by the then Labor Government.

Agree.

Richard Ings grandstanding.

"Blackest day in Australian Sport", what a load of bullshit.

Jason Clare (Minister/Shadow Minister for everything) and Kat Lundy were out for Brownie points.
 

Big Sim

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Unlike you, who tells other posters they have no idea, I won't ever say that about someone.

As for my credibility being on the line - happy for it to be so. Isn't it every time anyone posts something? I only ever post on things I know something about. Law I know a hell of a lot about. Economics/politics/tennis you also can't shut me up.

Motor vehicles, anything to do with a trade, anything outdoors or scary (e.g. rock climbing) I would be the dumbest person on this forum and would just STFU. Oh and Art, drama, ballet etc - snore.
You can tell me I have no idea if I have no idea mate, no problems. This is social media.

For the record, the media is my area of expertise. So I understand how easily opinions can be confused with facts. And indeed how facts are deliberately distorted, fudged, muddied in orchestrated media and public whispering campaigns by professional spinners and believe me there has been plenty of that going on throughout this saga.

You said

ASADA, an independent statutory body, decided to be complicit in what was essentially a government stunt. The "blackest day in Australian sport" was essentially a media strategy by Jason Clare and Gillard's office to take attention away from Gillard's crazy decision to name an election date and Rudd continually back grounding against her. Despite the fact they had NOT carried out to proper investigation and not followed due process, ASADA officials decided to stand next to Government Ministers at a Press Conference announcing to the world that Australian sport had a drug problem. Remember the heads of all codes there? This was a political stunt and something an independent statutory body should not participate in.

This is opinion, not established fact, and an opinion debated by plenty of commentators. But it is an opinion shared by many, who have said it so many times that it gets touted as fact. In the same way that the narrative of "poor record keeping" became established as a fact in the Essendon defence, when it makes no logical sense at all.
 

Big Sim

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Agree.

Richard Ings grandstanding.

"Blackest day in Australian Sport", what a load of bullshit.

Jason Clare (Minister/Shadow Minister for everything) and Kat Lundy were out for Brownie points.
Can you think of a blacker day than the one that announced the investigation into an entire squad of elite players of our indigenous game being systematically doped? An investigation that has led to 34 infraction notices and had a huge impact on the sport?
 
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Can you think of a blacker day than the one that announced the investigation into an entire squad of elite players of our indigenous game being systematically doped? An investigation that has led to 34 infraction notices and had a huge impact on the sport?

Hang on, it was a blanket announcement without any substance, accusing Australian Sport of Match fixing and corruption, as well as the drug hysteria.

I'd say Vinnicombe getting caught, then announcing he was guilty, then lagging in the rest of his cycle crew, was as bad a day as any.

But in these days of miracle and wonder no-one has collective memory. If an auto-cue reader says 'worst ever' with a stern face, no-one questions it or bothers to go and look it up.
 
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But in these days of miracle and wonder no-one has collective memory. If an auto-cue reader says 'worst ever' with a stern face, no-one questions it or bothers to go and look it up.
A million times this.

Every day it's "Shocking" this, or "Horrible" that. Five things you must know about underwater basket weaving. Something-something-something sex.

* off. Don't sell me drama, tell me the ******* news arseclown.
 
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A million times this.

Every day it's "Shocking" this, or "Horrible" that. Five things you must know about underwater basket weaving. Something-something-something sex.

**** off. Don't sell me drama, tell me the ******* news arseclown.

There's this thing called summer that could cause record bushfires.

Coming up next, a Royal with a baby bump..........and a cute animal playing a piano.

Don't bother thinking, commercial news will do it for you.
 
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Yes but the report was not published by ASADA - a body that is meant to be independent from all outside influences. On that basis I do not believe it is appropriate for it to participate in press conferences relating to government or matters relating to other bodies/commissions. The public interest dictates that ASADA not just be, but also be seen to be independent. Public confidence was breached when ASADA was present, particularly given the emotive words used by the then Labor Government. Add to that we then had officials from ASADA providing media commentary in coming months and you can see why people criticise them.

You have quoted the judges findings in the initial decision - my contention is he got it wrong and it will be over turned. Maybe not at the Court of Appeal but if it goes to the High Court I believe it will be. The power in section 21 I believe will be read to be limited by the overarching purpose of ASADA to be independent, such that the CEO must cooperate and work with govt/sporting organisations etc in relation to initiatives (e.g. awareness campaigns, testing, policies etc) BUT when it comes to investigations and enforcement the need for independence means it must act by itself.

I think it's obvious that when the minister for sport holds a press conference detailing the findings of the crime commissions report into doping in Australian sport that the government body for regulating drugs in sport be present. I take no exception to ASADA coming out and publicly denouncing doping as that is their function. I agree that Jason Clare was a bit over the top with his language but i don't see how you extrapolate that out to the government having their fingers in ASADAs pie.

Sorry to keep going to back to his ruling, but at this stage Middleton is the only one who has objectively looked at all the evidence and made a ruling.

Middleton found that ASADA had acted by itself. He rejected the notion that is was a joint investigation and found that even though ASADA and the AFL shared resources and delegated administrative tasks to each other both investigations were conducted separately and for different purposes.

This whole saga has been extremely difficult for almost everyone to view with out some sort of bias. You claim to have a source who works closely with the liberal party. Can't you see that their bias is towards finding a way to peg this onto Labor not saying they are completely blinded by their bias, but they would be somewhat skewed as it serves their own purpose. Just as my opinions are skewed by my hatred for Essendon.
 
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There's this thing called summer that could cause record bushfires.

Coming up next, a Royal with a baby bump..........and a cute animal playing a piano.

Don't bother thinking, commercial news will do it for you.
P.S. Something is happening in a middle-eastern country but we don't really know what it is, so here is some file footage of terrorist looking people and a few shots of an angry crowd.
 

Big Sim

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There's this thing called summer that could cause record bushfires.

Coming up next, a Royal with a baby bump..........and a cute animal playing a piano.

Don't bother thinking, commercial news will do it for you.
Also watch out for that monster Putin, and those monstrous North Koreans.

But China, god bless them, they will buy Australia and make us all rich.
 

Big Sim

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The Federal court decision is not proof of its own accuracy. There are many great legal minds who disagree. Neil Young strongly advised the Essendon board to appeal, he is adamant about his interpretation (and he was once a Fed court judge himself) ... And spare me the "lawyers lining their own pockets" narrative. Who knows if he is right but decisions are overturned all the time...

The reality is that the truth is relatively banal. Hird and Co had their heads so far up their own add that they didn't see the risk in pushing boundaries and didn't see Dank for what he was. The players asked some questions but not enough. Reid expressed concerns but was too beholden to the messiah to really object... ASADA have strong circumstantial evidence but no smoking gun. They also rushed the investigation and ballsed it up a bit. James has a technical legal argument but probably not so crucial as to change things. The players will get a holiday but not get wiped out.

FIN
Good nutshell.
 

jj1978

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- Players admit to being injected with something...
- Club admits players injected...

ASADA and WADA dictate that every injection/supplement etc must be documented accordingly specifying time/date player provided to etc etc.. fail to comply and provide proof evidence of such documentation is a breach...

In the law of the land "Ignorance is no excuse!" (and probably true in the eyes of ASADA/WADA) and as such funny if a court would find such ignorance acceptable...

Again from the "Ignorance is no excuse" point of view"... unless the players can provide evidence of complete and proper attempts to verify what they were given was Kosher... then they deserve some form of punishment.. if believed they were duped sure a lighter punishment is acceptable.. getting off scott free is not.

If proven guilty as long as Hird and Dank get the full brunt of any punishment (at least 2 years!) then I'll be satisfied.
 
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- Players admit to being injected with something...
- Club admits players injected...

ASADA and WADA dictate that every injection/supplement etc must be documented accordingly specifying time/date player provided to etc etc.. fail to comply and provide proof evidence of such documentation is a breach...

In the law of the land "Ignorance is no excuse!" (and probably true in the eyes of ASADA/WADA) and as such funny if a court would find such ignorance acceptable...

Again from the "Ignorance is no excuse" point of view"... unless the players can provide evidence of complete and proper attempts to verify what they were given was Kosher... then they deserve some form of punishment.. if believed they were duped sure a lighter punishment is acceptable.. getting off scott free is not.

If proven guilty as long as Hird and Dank get the full brunt of any punishment (at least 2 years!) then I'll be satisfied.
That's all fair commentary IMHO, but the thing is that Essendon (the club) has been punished for exactly that already.

When it comes to the players themselves, they can't ban them for doping unless there is evidence that proves with little doubt they took banned substances. If that can't be done, there's no ethically acceptable way they can be punished for anything really (unless provisions exist in the relevant doping codes that I am not aware of).
 
SEN today saying the worst case scenario is Bombers miss 8 weeks.

Do they just pull numbers out of the air?! We have the worst excuse for football analysts and media personalities.

It's stupid. The worst case scenario is the maximum amount allowed by the legislation.

The most likely scenario is a different thing again.
 
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If any bans for doping are handed down and they aren't SIGNIFICANT bans, how the hell can ASADA justify them? If you doped, you get smacked. That's how it works. It shouldn't matter in the slightest that the issue has been ongoing for a long time and some people have been hurt in their feelings-areas. Tough. Guilty is guilty.
 
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