Research Origin of Australian Football's Gaelic Origin Myth [+Marngrook]

[SpareTowel]

Perhaps i was confusing him with Harrison, as i just googled Harrison and it says he visited the goldfields in 1852, and sympathised with the diggers.

Can't find Wills visiting the diggings on google, so perhaps after returning from England, he didn't.,

Yeah, Tom's life from 1856/7 can be tracked fairly accurately through the newspapers. Until Cullin-la-Ringo he spent his whole time playing sport in Melbourne and Geelong, and Sydney for intercolonial matches.

 

[RogersResults]

I agree that it is quite a tenuous link, but someone actually had to come up with the theory, it is amazing for someone to think of it in the first place let alone put the sequence of events in place.

The initial Gaelic rules do not actually describe how the game is played, the rule makers and players must have known how the game was played.

Personally i am not so quick to write this off, i am also not one to totally throw out the marn grook theory as well, i am no professional historian so don't rely solely on hard evidence to sway me.

It depends on whether by "theory" you mean "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted", or the current popular meaning that equates theory with a notion, belief or opinion held without evidence. (Its how creationists attempt to dismiss Darwin's 'origin of species by means of natural selection' as just a "theory".)

People believe all sorts of things without evidence. In this case there is no 'smoking gun' linking the rules written in Melbourne in 1866 with what Davin came up with. Although few things are truly original and most inventions are the result of an accumulation of knowledge, there are examples of the same thing being devised at different times in different places by different people independently. Historically there has been considerable prejudice concerning who or what group of people were or were not capable or original thinking. (The British in regard to the Irish and 'colonials' such as Australians for example.)

As for the initial Gaelic rules not describing how the game is played, is there a link to Davin's original? The 1866 rules as published in the Australian press are also not exactly descriptive of how the game is played. - see here: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11275173 (first column under 'Athetic Sports'.)

 

[fabulousphil]

double

 

[fabulousphil]

It depends on whether by "theory" you mean "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted", or the current popular meaning that equates theory with a notion, belief or opinion held without evidence. (Its how creationists attempt to dismiss Darwin's 'origin of species by means of natural selection' as just a "theory".)

People believe all sorts of things without evidence. In this case there is no 'smoking gun' linking the rules written in Melbourne in 1866 with what Davin came up with. Although few things are truly original and most inventions are the result of an accumulation of knowledge, there are examples of the same thing being devised at different times in different places by different people independently. Historically there has been considerable prejudice concerning who or what group of people were or were not capable or original thinking. (The British in regard to the Irish and 'colonials' such as Australians for example.)

As for the initial Gaelic rules not describing how the game is played, is there a link to Davin's original? The 1866 rules as published in the Australian press are also not exactly descriptive of how the game is played. - see here: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11275173 (first column under 'Athetic Sports'.)

Yes, that leads me to believe that the Irish were already playing a game, and knew how to play it, the 1887 rules just added a bit of extra framework.

 

[fabulousphil]

Gaelic football .... with Behind posts ?, wonder when this photo was taken, obviously before 1887 when the posts of Gaelic were enshrined to be 2 uprights with a crossbar and net.

http://football-origins.com/27-paddy-power-the-gaa-and-the-foundation-of-gaelic-football/

Edit, the photo states it was the 1903 GAA all Ireland final.

 

[fabulousphil]

Up untill 1910 Gaelic football used used goal and behind posts, with a goal scoring five points and a behind one. When the behind posts were abolished, one was used for a crossbar and a net was introduced.

Scoring was then changed with a goal (in the net) being worth three points and a shot going over the crossbar worth one.

Until 1903 behinds were decisive only when goals were equal and a tie-breaker, so to speak, was required.

From 1903 on, Gaelic football has adopted the Australian style of scoring with the aggregate of goals and points counting.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/116399373?searchTerm=gaelic football behind posts&searchLimits=

More tenuous links between the games

 

[fabulousphil]

In one of my previous posts i posted the Gaelic rules of 1887, but i must have posted a shorter versio of them, after looking in a actual newspaper rather than just a website, the picture with behind posts becomes clearer, and in this do i think the Austrlian football rules comes more into play ......


4. The goal posts shall stand at each end, in centre of goal line. They shall be twenty-one feet apart, with a cross bar 10 feet from the ground. Besides the goal posts there shall be two upright posts standing in each goal line, twenty-one feet from the goal posts. A goal is won when the ball is driven between the the goal posts and under the cross bar. A point is counted when the ball is driven over the cross-bar or over the goal line within twenty-one feet of either goal post.


9. The match shall be decided by the greater number of goals. Where no goals are made, or where the goals are equal, the match shall be de cided by the greater number of points.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115447922?searchTerm=gaelic football behind posts&searchLimits=

Remember in 1866 the behind posts were used for the first time in Australian football.

 

[fabulousphil]

I think the 1866 laws of Australian Football and the first laws of Gaelic football in this newspaper link of 1887 are much more relevant now than the one i previously linked.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115447922?searchTerm=gaelic

1. The ground for full teams (21 aside) shall be
196 yards long by 140 yards broad, or as near that size that can be got.


Not 120 yards x 80 as reported in my previous post.

the behind posts, the handpass, the solo or bouncing the ball, the size of the field, even the p[oints scoring all adds up.

 

[fabulousphil]

I have searched other keyword combinations and this, from 1909, is now the oldest source: "An old New South Wales footballer writes me from Killarney, where he was then spending a holiday. He witnessed a match for the National Football Championship, under Gaelic Rules, played at Thuries on a Sunday afternoon, between Dublin and Kerry. It was for the All Championship of Ireland, and is the game played practically all over Ireland. It is practically the same as the Victorian Rules, or Australian game, only a Soccer ball is used instead of the Rugby ball, and the goal-posts are the same as in Association football. The minor posts and the mode of scoring are the same as in Victoria."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120634855

I assumed the point scoring mode and minor posts were the rugby style posts as Gaelic uses now, and the writer was comparing a major and minor score, but untill i researched it yesterday, in 1909 Gaelic football actually used 2 behind or point posts exactly like AF has used since 1866.

What did Gaelic football look like in 1887 ?, i would love to see a photo, my bet is that association football made its way across the Irish sea between the late 1860's and when Gaelic was codified in 1887 and the crossbar, (and eventually the net) is some sort of compromise.

IMO the below photo leads me to believe that there was some link to the 1866 rules of AF and Gaelic football, that is not some fluke IMO

 

[fabulousphil]

The initial distance ( width) in Gaelic football upon codification between the posts when they had 4 posts was 21 feet.


The goal posts shall stand at each end, in centre of goal line. They shall be twenty-one feet apart, with a cross bar 10 feet from the ground. Besides the goal posts there shall be two upright posts standing in each goal line., twenty-one feet from the goal posts.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115447922?searchTerm=gaelic

.............................................................................................................

The distance between Australian footballs 4 posts is ...... 21 feet.

"When the game first established (in the "Richmond Paddock" towards the concluding "fifties") the distance between the goals was usually between 300 and 400 yards, and the width of the playing space in due proportion.
Some years afterwards, when a proper code of rules were framed by Delegates B. Goldsmith and L. W. Bell of Melbourne, S. Wallace (who is now in Perth), and T. P. Power (Carlton), M. McDonald and L. J. Bracken
(Albert Park), A. Hastings and J. McIndoe (North Melbourne), G. L. Skinner and H. Jennings (St.Kilda), and G. Down (Geelong), the first rule read as follows: -
"The distance between the goals shall not be more than 200 yards, and the width of playing space (to be measured equally on each side of a line drawn through the centres of the goals) not more than 150 yards. The goal posts shall be 7 yards ( 21 feet) apart of unlimited height."

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Pre VFL Rules of Football

 

[fabulousphil]

So, when Gaelic football was codified in 1887, the similarities with Australian football are really quite striking.

* The length and width of the playing area was practically identical

* Both codes had 4 posts

* Each of those 4 posts were 21 feet apart.

* Each codes scoring system had goals and behinds

* In the case of a draw, behinds were used to decide the winner

* Players must punch the ball and may not throw it

Have posted it twice, but a picture is worth a thousand words, and in this case probably more.

 

[SpareTowel]

Here's two interesting articles from The Canberra Times, 1983, that refute an Irish historian's claim that Gaelic football influenced Australian football. The goalpost issue is mentioned:

"Until 1910 Gaelic football used goal and behind posts, with a goal scoring five points and a behind one. When the behind posts were abolished, one was used for a crossbar and a net was introduced. Scoring was then changed with a goal (in the net) being worth three points and a shot going over the crossbar worth one. Until 1903 behinds were decisive only when goals were equal and a tie-breaker, so to speak, was required. From 1903 on, Gaelic football had adopted the Australian style of scoring with the aggregate of goals and points counting. Gaelic football also has experimented with playing numbers, first having 21 and refining down to 17 and 15, although experimenting for some years with 13."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116399373

"All the features that distinguish Gaelic football of the present day, and cause the (I repeat unthinking) to argue that, on the grounds that Ireland predates Australia, therefore Australian rules football derives from Ireland, came into being from 1890s onwards, more particularly in the first decade of this century when Gaelic football became a mass-spectator sport. Let me refer once again to the question of these goal posts. ... it is simply not true that until 1910 Gaelic football used goal and behind posts without a crossbar. The crossbar has always been there: may I quote from 'United Ireland', February 7, 1885: 'Goal-posts shall stand at each end in the centre of the goal-line. They shall be 15 feet apart, with cross-bar eight feet from the ground.' The cross-bar went up to a height of 10 ½ feet from November 1886, when behind posts were introduced for the first time, but came back to 8 feet in 1896. In 1910, as Mr Small rightly says, the behind posts were abolished, the goal posts being extended beyond the crossbar to a height of 16 feet, although a point could be scored if the ball went over the bar at any height."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116400645

There are some factual errors though, like his claim that Harrow School rules were the primary influence on Wills and Harrison, so I don't know how reliable the goalpost details are.

 

[fabulousphil]

Here's two interesting articles from The Canberra Times, 1983, that refute an Irish historian's claim that Gaelic football influenced Australian football. The goalpost issue is mentioned:

"Until 1910 Gaelic football used goal and behind posts, with a goal scoring five points and a behind one. When the behind posts were abolished, one was used for a crossbar and a net was introduced. Scoring was then changed with a goal (in the net) being worth three points and a shot going over the crossbar worth one. Until 1903 behinds were decisive only when goals were equal and a tie-breaker, so to speak, was required. From 1903 on, Gaelic football had adopted the Australian style of scoring with the aggregate of goals and points counting. Gaelic football also has experimented with playing numbers, first having 21 and refining down to 17 and 15, although experimenting for some years with 13."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116399373

"All the features that distinguish Gaelic football of the present day, and cause the (I repeat unthinking) to argue that, on the grounds that Ireland predates Australia, therefore Australian rules football derives from Ireland, came into being from 1890s onwards, more particularly in the first decade of this century when Gaelic football became a mass-spectator sport. Let me refer once again to the question of these goal posts. ... it is simply not true that until 1910 Gaelic football used goal and behind posts without a crossbar. The crossbar has always been there: may I quote from 'United Ireland', February 7, 1885: 'Goal-posts shall stand at each end in the centre of the goal-line. They shall be 15 feet apart, with cross-bar eight feet from the ground.' The cross-bar went up to a height of 10 ½ feet from November 1886, when behind posts were introduced for the first time, but came back to 8 feet in 1896. In 1910, as Mr Small rightly says, the behind posts were abolished, the goal posts being extended beyond the crossbar to a height of 16 feet, although a point could be scored if the ball went over the bar at any height."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116400645

There are some factual errors though, like his claim that Harrow School rules were the primary influence on Wills and Harrison, so I don't know how reliable the goalpost details are.

I already quoted it, above at post 31.

To go with my other photo, i will now post this

Looks to me like the same game, as the larger photo i posted ( post 30,34,36) i said this previously but Gaelic football looks like what Australian football would have become with a bigger soccer influence and if we had continued to use a round ball.

Ireland is very close to the UK and soccer was one of the reasons why the GAA formed in the first place, as UK sports were taking over from traditional Irish sports.

Do the goal posts in the photos i have posted prove that Australian football influenced Gaelic football ?, seems likely to me.

 

[fabulousphil]

By midsummer
1884, Davin and Cuzack’s planning was reaching an advanced stage, and one of the most pressing
needs was to establish the support of some prestigious patrons. In late 19
th century Ireland, this meant the Catholic Church (Ryan, 1965).

They approached the archbishop of Cashel. Dr. Thomas Croke, one of the more liberal clergymen of the time
who was known to have a passionate interest in sport. He was more than enthusiastic, providing Cuzack and
Davin the momentum they needed to convene the historic meeting in Thurles, which took place on All Saint’s Day,
November 1, 1884 (Prior, 1997).
Two other important patrons were Michael Davitt, a Fenian who had recently been released from prison, and
was the leader of the Land league (aimed at enabling Irish tenants, then at the mercy of landlords, to gain
control of their land), and Charles Stewart Parnell, the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party. Both Davitt and
Parnell were in favor of such an organization being established. Nationalist Ireland was at one: Irish games
were to be revived and the British influences resisted (Cuiv, 1969).

http://www.thesmartjournal.com/GAA.pdf

If indeed Croke had seen Irishmen playing Australian football in NZ, and if he indeed did have a passionate interest in sport, then it is quite the possibility that he reflected his experiences to Davin and Cuzack.

 

[fabulousphil]

I assumed the point scoring mode and minor posts were the rugby style posts as Gaelic uses now, and the writer was comparing a major and minor score, but untill i researched it yesterday, in 1909 Gaelic football actually used 2 behind or point posts exactly like AF has used since 1866.

What did Gaelic football look like in 1887 ?, i would love to see a photo, my bet is that association football made its way across the Irish sea between the late 1860's and when Gaelic was codified in 1887 and the crossbar, (and eventually the net) is some sort of compromise.

IMO the below photo leads me to believe that there was some link to the 1866 rules of AF and Gaelic football, that is not some fluke IMO

Thought i would bump this photo due to the current IR game played

 

[RogersResults]

The first playing rules of Gaelic football as adopted at the GAA’s second convention in December 1884
1.
There shall not be less than fifteen or more than twenty-one
players aside.
2.
There shall be two umpires and a referee. Where the umpires
disagree, the referee’s decision shall be final.
3.
The ground shall be at least 120 yards long by 80 in breadth and
properly marked by boundary lines. Boundary lines to be at least five
yards from the fences.
4 .
Goal-posts shall stand at each end in the centre of the goal-line.
They shall be 15 feet apart, with cross-bar eight feet from the ground.
5.
The captains of each team shall toss for choice of sides before
commencing play and the players shall stand in two ranks opposite
each other, until the ball is thrown up, each man holding the hand of
one of the other side.
6.
Pushing or tripping from behind, holding from behind, or butting with
the head shall be deemed foul and players so offending shall be asked
to stand aside and may not afterwards take any part in the match,
nor can his side substitute another man.
7.
The time of actual play shall be one hour. Sides to be changed at
half-time.
8.
The match shall be decided by the greater number of goals. If no goal
be kicked, the match shall be deemed a draw. A goal is scored when
the ball is kicked through the goalposts under the cross-bar.
9.
When the ball is kicked over the side-line it shall be thrown back in
any direction by a player of the other side. If kicked over the goal-line
by a player of the other side, the goal-keeper whose line it crosses
shall have a free kick. No player on the other side to approach nearer
than 25 yards of him till the ball is kicked.
10.
The umpires and referee shall have, during the match, full power to
disqualify any player or order him to stand aside and discontinue play
for any act which they may consider unfair as set out in Rule 6.

http://www.crokepark.ie/getmedia/e35fa6c0-370d-4d68-831c-85df0f874a0d/Web1.pdf

If anyone wants to research this subject further:

Lennon, J. 1997.
The Playing Rules of Football and Hurling 1884 – 1995.
Dublin: Northern Recreation Consultants.

http://www.abebooks.com/Playing-Rules-Football-Hurling-1884-1995-Joe/9434899959/bd

 

[fabulousphil]

The first playing rules of Gaelic football as adopted at the GAA’s second convention in December 1884
1.
There shall not be less than fifteen or more than twenty-one
players aside.
2.
There shall be two umpires and a referee. Where the umpires
disagree, the referee’s decision shall be final.
3.
The ground shall be at least 120 yards long by 80 in breadth and
properly marked by boundary lines. Boundary lines to be at least five
yards from the fences.
4 .
Goal-posts shall stand at each end in the centre of the goal-line.
They shall be 15 feet apart, with cross-bar eight feet from the ground.
5.
The captains of each team shall toss for choice of sides before
commencing play and the players shall stand in two ranks opposite
each other, until the ball is thrown up, each man holding the hand of
one of the other side.
6.
Pushing or tripping from behind, holding from behind, or butting with
the head shall be deemed foul and players so offending shall be asked
to stand aside and may not afterwards take any part in the match,
nor can his side substitute another man.
7.
The time of actual play shall be one hour. Sides to be changed at
half-time.
8.
The match shall be decided by the greater number of goals. If no goal
be kicked, the match shall be deemed a draw. A goal is scored when
the ball is kicked through the goalposts under the cross-bar.
9.
When the ball is kicked over the side-line it shall be thrown back in
any direction by a player of the other side. If kicked over the goal-line
by a player of the other side, the goal-keeper whose line it crosses
shall have a free kick. No player on the other side to approach nearer
than 25 yards of him till the ball is kicked.
10.
The umpires and referee shall have, during the match, full power to
disqualify any player or order him to stand aside and discontinue play
for any act which they may consider unfair as set out in Rule 6.

http://www.crokepark.ie/getmedia/e35fa6c0-370d-4d68-831c-85df0f874a0d/Web1.pdf

If anyone wants to research this subject further:

Lennon, J. 1997.
The Playing Rules of Football and Hurling 1884 – 1995.
Dublin: Northern Recreation Consultants.

http://www.abebooks.com/Playing-Rules-Football-Hurling-1884-1995-Joe/9434899959/bd

Using those rules i would have little idea how to play Gaelic football, without seeing the game played the implementation of the above rules would possibly lead to a very different game.

For example what is the scoring system, does the ball need to be bounced or handballed , when did the Gaelic solo come in etc, these type of things must have been discussed and probably written at the initial meetings.

My interest stems from a series of articles in the Irish echo a couple of years ago and a theory that Gaelic football, or at least the codifying of it is actually related to Australian football, not the other way around as many people think.

I understand Irish people would have been playing localised forms of football for possibly thousands of years not for one second am i suggesting that we exported the game of football there, but at the time the Irish were loath to take from the English and it makes sense they would use another countries blueprint.

http://www.irishecho.com.au/2010/10/06/is-gaelic-football-based-on-afl/6203

 

[RogersResults]

Using those rules i would have little idea how to play Gaelic football, without seeing the game played the implementation of the above rules would possibly lead to a very different game.

For example what is the scoring system, does the ball need to be bounced or handballed , when did the Gaelic solo come in etc, these type of things must have been discussed and probably written at the initial meetings.

My interest stems from a series of articles in the Irish echo a couple of years ago and a theory that Gaelic football, or at least the codifying of it is actually related to Australian football, not the other way around as many people think.

I understand Irish people would have been playing localised forms of football for possibly thousands of years not for one second am i suggesting that we exported the game of football there, but at the time the Irish were loath to take from the English and it makes sense they would use another countries blueprint.

http://www.irishecho.com.au/2010/10/06/is-gaelic-football-based-on-afl/6203

Remember that the Gaelic Athletic Society was set up to revive traditional Irish games. The 1884 rules drawn up by Davan apparently assumed that the basics of the original game were known. The 1884 rules could also have been influenced by the current Association and Rugby rules which Davan would have had easy access to rather than what was going on in Australia. See: The first chapter of 'Myths and Milestones in the History of Sport' http://books.google.com.au/books?id=k6A0Mvz6k9gC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
for an account of shared characteristics between the various football codes at the time.

 

[fabulousphil]

Remember that the Gaelic Athletic Society was set up to revive traditional Irish games. The 1884 rules drawn up by Davan apparently assumed that the basics of the original game were known. The 1884 rules could also have been influenced by the current Association and Rugby rules which Davan would have had easy access to rather than what was going on in Australia. See: The first chapter of 'Myths and Milestones in the History of Sport' http://books.google.com.au/books?id=k6A0Mvz6k9gC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
for an account of shared characteristics between the various football codes at the time.

FWIU many different counties used to play their own sort of game, what i was actually getting at is when the rules were formulated and the rules centralised what did the game look like, i wonder if it was similar to AF at the time. ( as similar as it is today)

I am 100% sure that Davan had the rules of rugby and soccer to use if he wanted and maybe he took some, one of the reasons the GAA started was because British games were taking over, if there was no centralised football game played across the country what counties did he use ?.

Is it possible that in consultation with Croke he used some rules from the 1866 rules of AF and in part modelled the game on them.

In 1866 in AF a round ball was used.

Is it possible that if AF still used a round ball that we may have gone the same way as Gaelic and installed a crossbar which would allow for soccer style goals.

 

[cos789]

Very interesting discussion but people seem to be looking for the definitive answer and possibly reading too much into too little.
We know the possible influences of Australian Football - Marngrook, Rugby rules, Cambridge rules, Irish games, anti-English sentiment, pro-British sentiment, free-settler sentiment, the dry weather and a limited notion of "sport". We don't know the degree of influence. We know that the original rules were nothing like those of Rugby and closer to those rules of Cambridge. So what was the game like? Well, an important fact is that the game was low-scoring. it must have been like the traditional notion of old world football as in one mob fighting another mob to get an object into a defended target. To that extent it all looked very messy much like a rugby scrum. Obviously the codes diverged as the players became more skilled and adept at using the features of the differing rules. There must have been a time when Australian Football looked very similar to a version of Gaelic Football. With the adoption of the oval ball and the use of expansive grounds Australian Football headed in one direction. whilst Ireland, under heavy influence of rectangular games, a round ball, wetter climates and smaller spaces went in another direction. I have little doubt that the Irish game looked at the rules of Australian Football, but this in itself means little. Just as we use templates on a word processor, codification would have only accepted rules which seemed useful and applicable. Indeed the original rules of Gaelic don't give any idea as to how the game was played. At least we can see that in Cambridge rules the ball has to be soccered and that you could run with the ball in Rugby rules. The written rules give us significant information. Written witness accounts give us some if probably biased information. Photographs give us a lot of information, but even then there is a tendency to read too much into certain facts. Australian Football brought us the behind posts as a tie-breaker and we see them in Gaelic Football for a period, but they could have been added to other codes without changing the integrity of the respective codes. It was only later that the idea of a tie-breaker was altered to that of being of some worth.

 

[fabulousphil]

Similarities between AF and Gaelic noted in 1926.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...otball&searchLimits=sortby|||l-state=Victoria

And a offer for a AF team to play a Gaelic team in California in 1927

 

[cos789]

Similarities between AF and Gaelic noted in 1926.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142160505?searchTerm=gaelic football&searchLimits=sortby|||l-state=Victoria

And a offer for a AF team to play a Gaelic team in California in 1927

Interesting that he quotes T. Wills wanting to improve on Rugby and that he succeeded.
That they might have used a round ball but could only procure a Rugby ball.

 

[SpareTowel]

Similarities between AF and Gaelic noted in 1926.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/142160505?searchTerm=gaelic football&searchLimits=sortby|||l-state=Victoria

And a offer for a AF team to play a Gaelic team in California in 1927

I quoted this one in my opening post. Jack Worrall's great, he was the leading voice of that first generation to develop a strong historical perspective on footy

 

[fabulousphil]

I quoted this one in my opening post. Jack Worrall's great, he was the leading voice of that first generation to develop a strong historical perspective on footy

I think we can thank Tommy Sherrin for the shape of the ball, good businessman and really sold the idea of his ball, perhaps historically Sherrin is too late in the piece and the shape of the ball had been set but his seems to be the first produced specifically for the game.

Had we continued to use a round ball, i believe we would have at some stage like Gaelic added a crossbar.

 

[scribbs]

A book I recently have purchased (not read as yet as many books to read) may be helpful The History of Gaelic Football by Eoghan Corry. It may shed some light on matters, who knows.

Although maybe not a direct link to this thread but maybe of interest is this link to journals on GAA football, has some journals and others to be uploaded.

According to this research paper:

There are historical references to a form of Irish or Gaelic football being played in Ireland as far back as the 14th century. It seems that Gaelic football games were cross-country marathons involving hundreds of players,and violent exchanges were the norm. This cross-country football was called ‘caid in County Kerry, taking its name from the ball of horsehide or oxhide which had an inflated natural bladder inside it (Healy, 1998).