Chinese Free Trade Deal, Has the Australian Government Betrayed Australia

[Power Raid]

No it isn't.

It is our stable political system, strong safety net and level of consumer spending. The good fortune of natural resources is part, but arable land and food availability have also been important. However, it's domestic demand that is the core of our good fortune. Australia don't have a trade surplus, nor are we an export economy

I think it is pretty hard to argue we aren't good at exporting. Dismiss it however you like but the numbers are impressive

 

[Power Raid]

Firstly, it is not independant. Secondly, Australian corporations and individuals can't sue the government over potential loss of revenue due to changes in regulation. Rightly so.

Terrible argument.

I think you are being a little mischievous given the arbitration processes are well established by terms of arbitration protocol and the "independent" arbitrator who sits alongside the two arbitrators appointed by the disputing parties.

but I guess if you ignore the independent.........

 

[Play by Numbers]

I think it is pretty hard to argue we aren't good at exporting. Dismiss it however you like but the numbers are impressive

Graph has no relevance.

Australia is not a good exporter. Neither an export economy, nor runs trade deficits.

I think you are being a little mischievous given the arbitration processes are well established by terms of arbitration protocol and the "independent" arbitrator who sits alongside the two arbitrators appointed by the disputing parties.

but I guess if you ignore the independent.........

But it isn't an independent process.

It also is not beneficial.

Your argument being that disagreeing with stipulations in the agreement is a breach of the racial descrimination act is nonsensical.

 

[Power Raid]

No it isn't.

It is our stable political system, strong safety net and level of consumer spending. The good fortune of natural resources is part, but arable land and food availability have also been important. However, it's domestic demand that is the core of our good fortune. Australia don't have a trade surplus, nor are we an export economy

oh rank 21 (take out EU to avoid double counting) is pretty impressive for a small population so far removed from markets

Rank
country Exports Date of Information
1 China
$ 2,210,000,000,000
2013 est.
2 European Union
$ 2,173,000,000,000
2012 est.
3 United States
$ 1,575,000,000,000
2013 est.
4 Germany
$ 1,493,000,000,000
2013 est.
5 United Kingdom
$ 813,200,000,000
2013 est.
6 Japan
$ 697,000,000,000
2013 est.
7 France
$ 578,600,000,000
2013 est.
8 Netherlands
$ 576,900,000,000
2013 est.
9 Korea, South
$ 557,300,000,000
2013 est.
10 Russia
$ 515,000,000,000
2013 est.
11 Italy
$ 474,000,000,000
2013 est.
12 Canada
$ 458,700,000,000
2013 est.
13 Spain
$ 458,000,000,000
2013 est.
14 Hong Kong
$ 456,400,000,000
2013 est.
15 Singapore
$ 410,300,000,000
2013 est.
16 Saudi Arabia
$ 376,300,000,000
2013 est.
17 Mexico
$ 370,900,000,000
2013 est.
18 United Arab Emirates
$ 368,900,000,000
2013 est.
19 India
$ 313,200,000,000
2013 est.
20 Taiwan
$ 305,800,000,000
2013 est.
21 Belgium
$ 295,300,000,000
2013 est.
22 Australia
$ 251,700,000,000
2013 est.

 

[Power Raid]

But it isn't an independent process.

It also is not beneficial.

Your argument being that disagreeing with stipulations in the agreement is a breach of the racial descrimination act is nonsensical.

oh dear

first you claim it doesn't have an established framework.........and guess what? rubbish

the framework is well established



and you claim there is not independence but surely you acknowledge that the two disputing parties appoint there own arbitrator and a third independent arbitrator. What do you think a third independent arbitrator is? I will give you a clue.....independent. just in case you missed the clue.....independent.

 

[Play by Numbers]

oh dear

first you claim it doesn't have an established framework.........and guess what? rubbish

the framework is well established



and you claim there is not independence but surely you acknowledge that the two disputing parties appoint there own arbitrator and a third independent arbitrator. What do you think a third independent arbitrator is? I will give you a clue.....independent. just in case you missed the clue.....independent.

I never claimed it didn't have an established framework.

A single arbitrator being called independant, doesn't mean the process is independant.

 

[Play by Numbers]

oh rank 21 (take out EU to avoid double counting) is pretty impressive for a small population so far removed from markets

Not really. It is impressive Australia's GDP is so high, given population.

 

[Power Raid]

I never claimed it didn't have an established framework.

A single arbitrator being called independant, doesn't mean the process is independant.

oh dear

yes you're right it is only a single arbitrator if you ignore the other two

and if the independent is not independent the parties have failed to exercise their own right

 

[Power Raid]

why free trade is good

Table 1: Real price changes of selected items since 1985
Real price fall 1985-2010 (%)

Item
Men’s underwear, nightwear, socks
28
Women's underwear, nightwear, hosiery
9
Women's footwear
44
Men's footwear
54
Children's footwear
50
Furniture
25
Major household appliances
47
Small electronic appliances
51
Toiletries
25
Motor vehicles
37

 

[Power Raid]

I never claimed it didn't have an established framework.

A single arbitrator being called independant, doesn't mean the process is independant.

yep sorry, mistakenly took madmugs comment as yours

 

[Power Raid]

Not really. It is impressive Australia's GDP is so high, given population.

seems like 21 is a magic number but impressive in one circumstance but not another

1 Qatar
$ 102,100
2013 est.
2 Liechtenstein
$ 89,400
2009 est.
3 Macau
$ 88,700
2013 est.
4 Bermuda
$ 86,000
2011 est.
5 Monaco
$ 85,500
2011
6 Luxembourg
$ 77,900
2013 est.
7 Singapore
$ 62,400
2013 est.
8 Jersey
$ 57,000
2005 est.
9 Norway
$ 55,400
2013 est.
10 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)
$ 55,400
2002 est.
11 Switzerland
$ 54,800
2013 est.
12 Brunei
$ 54,800
2013 est.
13 Isle of Man
$ 53,800
2007 est.
14 United States
$ 52,800
2013 est.
15 Hong Kong
$ 52,700
2013 est.
16 Guernsey
$ 44,600
2005
17 Cayman Islands
$ 43,800
2004 est.
18 Netherlands
$ 43,300
2012 est.
19 Canada
$ 43,100
2013 est.
20 Gibraltar
$ 43,000
2008 est.
21 Australia
$ 43,000
2013 est.

 

[The Coup]

Our country really has no excuse for not being similar to an Emirate or Qatar economically.

Had we done it right we'd all be rich, educated, healthy and travelling the globe on pensions. There'd only be about 15 million of us and most of us would live nowhere near Melbourne or Sydney.

 

[Maggie5]

Looking at those Free Trade is Good figures, I wonder what the cost and percentages are for:

Loss of spending power to the economy due to job losses
Loss of income tax for the government (individuals, companies)
Cost of social services, pensions to compensate for those that lost jobs
Social benefits of using child labour in some of those overseas companies

Things may be cheaper under a FTA but you need money to buy them.

The yet to be costed affects when the motor vehicle industry stops manufacturing.

Love to see those figures.

 

[Power Raid]

Looking at those Free Trade is Good figures, I wonder what the cost and percentages are for:

Loss of spending power to the economy due to job losses
Loss of income tax for the government (individuals, companies)
Cost of social services, pensions to compensate for those that lost jobs
Social benefits of using child labour in some of those overseas companies

Things may be cheaper under a FTA but you need money to buy them.

The yet to be costed affects when the motor vehicle industry stops manufacturing.

Love to see those figures.

here we go again. You simply can't let go of the underlying issue can you?

the fact is whilst real costs have gone down during the period, wages have increased and dispoable income has increased.

feel free to discuss your real concerns. be honest now.....

 

[Power Raid]

Our country really has no excuse for not being similar to an Emirate or Qatar economically.

Had we done it right we'd all be rich, educated, healthy and travelling the globe on pensions. There'd only be about 15 million of us and most of us would live nowhere near Melbourne or Sydney.

is this "f off, we're full"?

oh and for the record, we are rich, we are educated, we are healthy by world standards

it seems some are simply ungrateful.......may be some need to travel

 

[Play by Numbers]

seems like 21 is a magic number but impressive in one circumstance but not another

Not really.

Based on 2013 figures, Australia ranked 12th, nominal GDP, 5th GDP per capita, and 14th GDP (PPP) per capita. Figures from IMF.

Yet when looking at trade figures, we just doubled our deficit to 2.3 billion and as per the CIA factbook, sit at 187 in terms of our CAB.

Regardless, your attempts to sidetrack from the main issue at hand are nonsensical.

Historically FTA agreements signed with large trading partners have worked out poorly for Australia.

This agreement and the TPP, which has little to do with freer trade are concerning. Allowing for ISDS provisions is a betrayal of the Australian populous.

 

[Power Raid]

Not really.

Based on 2013 figures, Australia ranked 12th, nominal GDP, 5th GDP per capita, and 14th GDP (PPP) per capita. Figures from IMF.

Yet when looking at trade figures, we just doubled our deficit to 2.3 billion and as per the CIA factbook, sit at 187 in terms of our CAB.

Regardless, your attempts to sidetrack from the main issue at hand are nonsensical.

Historically FTA agreements signed with large trading partners have worked out poorly for Australia.

This agreement and the TPP, which has little to do with freer trade are concerning. Allowing for ISDS provisions is a betrayal of the Australian populous.

yep so bad we are 5th; and
so bad at exporting we might as well give up

 

[Play by Numbers]

yep so bad we are 5th; and
so bad at exporting we might as well give up

You are an absolute potaytoh.

The point is, Australia has a higher relative GDP and per capita output, than our export strength can account for.

If we were such a grand exporting nation, I would expect parity at least, and a trade surplus with a CAB well in the plus.

 

[Power Raid]

You are an absolute potaytoh.

The point is, Australia has a higher relative GDP and per capita output, than our export strength can account for.

If we were such a grand exporting nation, I would expect parity at least, and a trade surplus with a CAB well in the plus.

OK sure but go back to my statement

"The reality is, we have the most to gain as a nation as we are an immaterial market to foreign companies but our economies strength is our ability to export. We are a bold nation, a capable nation and should fear what we have been good at for 200+ years. After all, that is what the brits set this nation up for."


- it is a fact we are good at exporting
- the value and it is material; then
- consider consistency and we get another tick

I can't help it if you want to be negative about our capabilities and activities.

 

[Play by Numbers]

OK sure but go back to my statement

"The reality is, we have the most to gain as a nation as we are an immaterial market to foreign companies but our economies strength is our ability to export. We are a bold nation, a capable nation and should fear what we have been good at for 200+ years. After all, that is what the brits set this nation up for."


- it is a fact we are good at exporting
- the value and it is material; then
- consider consistency and we get another tick

I can't help it if you want to be negative about our capabilities and activities.

We are not good at exporting.

We are a middling nation, and struggle to fully capitalise on the resources available. We have been blessed with material wealth.

There is also nothing bold about Australia, in fact our stability is a strength and more than anything else has allowed us to make the most of Australias resources.

 

[The Coup]

is this "f off, we're full"?

oh and for the record, we are rich, we are educated, we are healthy by world standards

it seems some are simply ungrateful.......may be some need to travel

I'm not ungrateful, I just want more (and deserve more, as does evry Australian).

The ungrateful are the English campaigners that sacked our best PM so they could profiteer off our mining industry forever.

 

[Power Raid]

I'm not ungrateful, I just want more (and deserve more, as does evry Australian).

The ungrateful are the English campaigners that sacked our best PM so they could profiteer off our mining industry forever.

like Rudd, Gough would have bankrupted the nation. I am not sure if that is a great outcome.

Both failed to understand business and mining. All they saw was big short term profits but they couldn't see the loses, the down turns, the capital expenditure and the risk.

Imagine how much we would be paying the Chinese today if the original mining tax was implemented? Imagine how Gough's plan would have fared through the 80s and 90s?


I would much prefer 40% free carried and risk free over 100% with risk and the requirement for capital injection.

 

[Power Raid]

We are not good at exporting.

We are a middling nation, and struggle to fully capitalise on the resources available. We have been blessed with material wealth.

There is also nothing bold about Australia, in fact our stability is a strength and more than anything else has allowed us to make the most of Australias resources.

I think your comments are a reflection of your defeatist self.

don't put the rest of us in your camp.

 

[The Coup]

like Rudd, Gough would have bankrupted the nation. I am not sure if that is a great outcome.

Both failed to understand business and mining. All they saw was big short term profits but they couldn't see the loses, the down turns, the capital expenditure and the risk.

Imagine how much we would be paying the Chinese today if the original mining tax was implemented? Imagine how Gough's plan would have fared through the 80s and 90s?


I would much prefer 40% free carried and risk free over 100% with risk and the requirement for capital injection.

The deets aren't really my focus and I trust your business nous.

Its the principle of just being in control of it and not just thinking (on a stupid, Reagan/Thatcherite basis) that big business making lots of profits is inherently good.

 

[Power Raid]

The deets aren't really my focus and I trust your business nous.

Its the principle of just being in control of it and not just thinking (on a stupid, Reagan/Thatcherite basis) that big business making lots of profits is inherently good.

all business has its place but I do prefer local business, small and medium size business to big business. I guess that is why I am anti government enterprise as they are big business but even more institutionalised.

I prefer businesses that still have personality. I also like to see people succeed or the glimmer in their eye when they try.