Discussion Clubs not acknowledging VFA History

[Gibbke]

VFL Hawks 11, Geelong 9
VFA Hawks 0, Geelong 7
Total: Hawks 11, Geelong 16...

Geelong will come up with any crazy scheme to beat us...obsessed...

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

VFL Hawks 11, Geelong 9
VFA Hawks 0, Geelong 7
Total: Hawks 11, Geelong 16...

Geelong will come up with any crazy scheme to beat us...obsessed...

That's factually incorrect.
AFL Hawks 4 AFL Cats 3
VFL Hawks 8 VFL Cats 6
VFA Hawks 0 VFA Cats 7

Total

Hawks 12 Cats 16

 

[Hawkk]

That's factually incorrect.
AFL Hawks 4 AFL Cats 3
VFL Hawks 8 VFL Cats 6
VFA Hawks 0 VFA Cats 7

Total

Hawks 12 Cats 16

Fortunately the AFL nipped this ridiculous concept in the bud in the Grand Final AFL record

The AFL only has jurisdiction over the VFL / AFL, its up to the clubs to embrace their VFA history...a start would be recognition on club related merchandise like the inside lining of the club jumper

For all intent and purpose Hawthorn has 12 AFL/VFL flags, Geelong has 9 VFL/AFL flags.

The fact that Geelong have 7 VFA flags is about as relevant to the AFL as Port Adelaide having 34 SANFL flags pre entrance to the VFL/AFL and perhaps South / East Fremantle having 11 and 28 WAFL flags respectively

 

[Hawkk]

VFL Hawks 11, Geelong 9
VFA Hawks 0, Geelong 7
Total: Hawks 11, Geelong 16...

Geelong will come up with any crazy scheme to beat us...obsessed...

We have 12 VFL/AFL flags

 

[SJ]

Fortunately the AFL nipped this ridiculous concept in the bud in the Grand Final AFL record

The AFL only has jurisdiction over the VFL / AFL, its up to the clubs to embrace their VFA history...a start would be recognition on club related merchandise like the inside lining of the club jumper

For all intent and purpose Hawthorn has 12 AFL/VFL flags, Geelong has 9 VFL/AFL flags.

The fact that Geelong have 7 VFA flags is about as relevant to the AFL as Port Adelaide having 34 SANFL flags pre entrance to the VFL/AFL and perhaps South / East Fremantle having 11 and 28 WAFL flags respectively

I do completely agree with you... on one hand.

The problem with that is the fact that the AFL wears two hats simultaneously:
1. It runs the competition known as the Australian Football League. Under this umbrella, Challenge Cup premierships (1870-1876) and VFA premierships (1877-1896) should never be included as a part of VFL/AFL history.
2. It also now runs the sport of Australian football via the AFL Commission. Under this umbrella, it should be doing far more to acknowledge the history of Australian football everywhere outside the VFL/AFL est. 1897. Starting with the previous history of football in Victoria, but also in South Australia and Western Australia. Their underrepresentation in publications and events such as the Australian Football Hall of Fame is disgraceful.

 

[Gibbke]

We have 12 VFL/AFL flags

I lost count! Good times overload...

...where's a decent double thumbs up with a deliriously drunk expression smiley when you need one...?

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

I lost count! Good times overload...

...where's a decent double thumbs up with a deliriously drunk expression smiley when you need one...?

I think you've just proven yourself to be another of the 70,000 in all honesty.

 

[Gibbke]

I think you've just proven yourself to be another of the 70,000 in all honesty.

A selfie! Brilliant idea. Just wait there, guys...back in a minute...

 

[SgtSchulz]

It also now runs the sport of Australian football via the AFL Commission. Under this umbrella, it should be doing far more to acknowledge the history of Australian football everywhere outside the VFL/AFL est. 1897. Starting with the previous history of football in Victoria, but also in South Australia and Western Australia. Their underrepresentation in publications and events such as the Australian Football Hall of Fame is disgraceful.

Not to mention the indigenous connection that has been ignored intentionally or unintentionally by white record keepers and historians.

 

[footyfan1978]

Why don't AFL clubs acknowledge VFA records as part of there club records?


If it was included what would premiership tally's look like?

We do. Carlton celebrated our 150th year in 2014. That is acknowledging the history beyond the length of this league formed in 1897.

Our premiership tally as a club I think in 22. 16 in this league and 6 in the VFA.

In fact in 1992 I remember Collingwood celebrated their 100 th year and had a big game against us on a Thursday night at the G. Collingwood formed in 1892. Five years before league started but still celebrated 100th year as a club. Naturally we beat them on that night even though we had a 4 day break.

So as you can see clubs do acknowledge their own history.

 

[footyfan1978]

I miss going to games at Footscray.

I don't. Was windy as hell. Cold too. Don't have much fond memories of going out there apart from when Peter Motley played an impressive game out there and started to think we were a flag chance. Think I marvelled at what I saw and knew we had another special player. Sadly, it might have been the last time I saw him play.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

At a club level you can recognise all flags, that's your choice


At an AFL league level it's only since 1897, because that's when the league started. There's no need for the league to recognise flags from other leagues.

 

[The_Reaper]

At a club level you can recognise all flags, that's your choice


At an AFL league level it's only since 1897, because that's when the league started. There's no need for the league to recognise flags from other leagues.

However the AFL as the national body that governs the game should recognise those other leagues

 

[Michael Riley]

I think the issue is more blurry than just recognising pre 1897 flags. How about Port Adelaide's SANFL premierships? North Melbourne? Footscray? Richmond?

A simpler system seems to me to be a recognition of premierships in other competitions and for the AFL to weave their story into a broader story of other competitions.

AFL writing often has a mania for superiority over everyone else....that the VFL story is the only story to be told. While we have that world view in AFL story telling it is very difficult to have a wider discussion.

AFL club websites are often very poor at talking about their own club histories. Each usually only starts their story from their VFL/AFL era. For example North Melbourne only lists their captains since 1925 (http://www.nmfc.com.au/club/history/honour-roll) as do the doggies (http://www.carltonfc.com.au/club/history/honour-board) and Richmond (http://www.richmondfc.com.au/club/history/football-officials)....An exception is Carlton (http://www.carltonfc.com.au/club/history/honour-board).

If clubs talked about their own histories. Footscray (Doggies) should be proud of their VFA premierships. The 1924 players should be listed on their club website as having played for the club. Why should players such as Alec Eason who played for Footscray the the 1924 AFL grand Final be ignored by the club.

Recognising pre 1897 premierships is in many ways trying to rewrite history so that the AFL superiority' story is maintained. It would not be suprising that an organisation who has had a history of telling history that way would continue to view history through their own prism.

The Key words in the debate are 'Senior Football'. If clubs thought about the issue in terms of First class football...or just that "Club records" and "Competition records " did not have to be the same thing.

And how about recognising Interstate games as well. 'AFL tables' is a site that I love and cannot live without. But it is a competition database and makes no mention of Laurie Nash's 18 goals against a full strength South Australian team in 1934. (http://boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Reference_+1934+VFL+v+SA+-+Aug+11), surely that effort is worthy of recognition, or Ken Farmer's tustles with Jack Regan.

Recognising the pre 1897 VFA premierships as VFL premierships could be seen as the AFL doing the right thing... but in the face of years of pressure to recognise the wider football world...it is very narrow and very telling

 

[SJ]

Brilliant post Michael Riley.

 

[SgtSchulz]

Footscray's 1924 victory over Essendon makes things interesting.

 

[Michael Riley]

As does Port Adelaide's victories over the Victorian premiers before WW1.
Ref https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_of_Australia

I should say that Footscray does have a timeline on their site - http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/club/history/timeline

 

[newcs]

Geelong has finally done something about this.

http://view.tmclient.ticketmaster.c...4640d797714&camefrom=EMCL_596842_26109420&r=0

 

[radiojake]

awesome

i like that

there's nothing about trying to 'value' the old vfa flags as the same as vfl/afl flags, or trying to rate them on some kinds of level - it's just acknowledging the 16 times that the Geelong Football Club have won the competition they happened to be competing in over the years

 

[SJ]

awesome

i like that

there's nothing about trying to 'value' the old vfa flags as the same as vfl/afl flags, or trying to rate them on some kinds of level - it's just acknowledging the 16 times that the Geelong Football Club have won the competition they happened to be competing in over the years

Bingo.

 

[El_Scorcho]

It's not really hurting anyone else, is it? It's a cool thing for Geelong to celebrate as a part of the fabric of their club, and nobody else really cares. Exactly as it should be.

 

[SgtSchulz]

Bump.

I thought people might find this interesting despite it being a little old.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...uld-be-turned-on-its-head-20140620-zsglu.html

 

[SJ]

Bump.

I thought people might find this interesting despite it being a little old.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...uld-be-turned-on-its-head-20140620-zsglu.html

Yes. We had this. The entire article drove me bananas.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/history-of-the-afl-could-be-turned-on-its-head.1067448/

 

[the croucher]

Have had a glance through this thread and cannot see any ref to the fact that the first few years of the VFA did not have an official premiership awarded. Debate about ways to officially determine who was premier seems to develop in the 1883-85 period.

August 1883
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196711125

May 1884
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/6048714

Sept 1885
near bottom of column on left
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/21337935

Oct 1885
see answers about halfway down column under FOOTBALL heading
"The premiership for 1881 was never officially decided, owing to the absence of any association regulations under which the question might have been definitely determined."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197984567

 

[the croucher]

Yes. We had this. The entire article drove me bananas.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/history-of-the-afl-could-be-turned-on-its-head.1067448/

The VFA didn't begin until 1877 so there were not any "premiers" prior to that date anyway because there was no competition to be premier of.

The Challenge Cup matches of the 1860s and 1870s were simply that - matches played every so often with the "cup holder" retaining it until beaten in a match where the cup was at stake. Many other matches were played but they had no bearing on "cup-holder" or "official premiers" status. There were sometimes two "cup-holders" in a particular year.

The earliest 15 years or so in the "premiers list" 1870 onwards published in the 1915 VFL Record is based on status determined by media, not official football body.