Oppo Camp 2014 non-Geelong AFL match and general discussion

[Vdubs]

Just as well they don't have to pass a football knowledge test when it comes to players to be able to post here,some peoples glowing opinions of Brown and Varcoe over the last couple of years show no knowledge of what's required at all, embarrassing really I some times think their got to be trolling how could they be that blind.

As this directly relates to my posting, what sort of knowledge test would you propose?
To be labelled as BLIND/TROLLING is somewhat insulting, and to rate certain players requires seeing things; sure, may be seeing things differently to you, and most posters here, and ultimately the MC as it turns out, but by definition, not blind.
To be honest, I am not shocked that both are off our list, and I am guilty of always hoping and believing that the best is yet to come. Have lived through enough disappointing departures from Geelong over the past 50 years now that some resilience develops.
Sorry about the embarrassment, but with a board like this, we all have opinions.

 

[Vdubs]

Your sister is obviously the brains in the family

As long as you don't tell her that.

 

[FredLeDeux]

As long as you don't tell her that.

She can't be that smart if she doesn't already know.

 

[Vdubs]

She can't be that smart if she doesn't already know.

She isn't but ,or and, she doesn't do Big Footy.

 

[you pick one]

As this directly relates to my posting, what sort of knowledge test would you propose?
To be labelled as BLIND/TROLLING is somewhat insulting, and to rate certain players requires seeing things; sure, may be seeing things differently to you, and most posters here, and ultimately the MC as it turns out, but by definition, not blind.
To be honest, I am not shocked that both are off our list, and I am guilty of always hoping and believing that the best is yet to come. Have lived through enough disappointing departures from Geelong over the past 50 years now that some resilience develops.
Sorry about the embarrassment, but with a board like this, we all have opinions.

I suppose it does relate to you by association from Bobby's earlier post but I hadn't intended it to be directly related to your good self forgive me unintentional, how ever on the subject itself do you know how frustrating it is to those of us who could see the weakness in their games and no real improvement over the last 2 years and when ever we bring the subject up to be ridiculed as a Varcoe/Brown haters by many maybe not you simply because it's the more popular stance to take, them being Geelong players and all.I truly find it unbelievable that it couldn't be seen by all I just don't get it, the same thing happened with Gillies.
By the way I've got no one in the gun at the moment and the blood pressure is returning to the normal range.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I suppose it does relate to you by association from Bobby's earlier post but I hadn't intended it to be directly related to your good self forgive me unintentional, how ever on the subject itself do you know how frustrating it is to those of us who could see the weakness in their games and no real improvement over the last 2 years and when ever we bring the subject up to be ridiculed as a Varcoe/Brown haters by many maybe not you simply because it's the more popular stance to take, them being Geelong players and all.I truly find it unbelievable that it couldn't be seen by all I just don't get it, the same thing happened with Gillies.
By the way I've got no one in the gun at the moment and the blood pressure is returning to the normal range.

I was one who caught you in the "Varcoe haters" net unintentionally, ypo It appears that you haven't forgiven me or accepted my apology (at least I *THINK* I apologised..)

I'm a bit like Vdubs in that I try and find the good in people- players, posters, whatever. I'm always trying to work out why Varcoe was picked week after week by the MC when there were young players lining up crying for a chance at senior footy. There must've been something there for him to be picked - also Brown, when his turn came. Something he (Varcoe, in particular) had that nobody else had- and not just a 6-figure pay packet.

 

[Vdubs]

I suppose it does relate to you by association from Bobby's earlier post but I hadn't intended it to be directly related to your good self forgive me unintentional, how ever on the subject itself do you know how frustrating it is to those of us who could see the weakness in their games and no real improvement over the last 2 years and when ever we bring the subject up to be ridiculed as a Varcoe/Brown haters by many maybe not you simply because it's the more popular stance to take, them being Geelong players and all.I truly find it unbelievable that it couldn't be seen by all I just don't get it, the same thing happened with Gillies.
By the way I've got no one in the gun at the moment and the blood pressure is returning to the normal range.

Agree that Brown showed no real progress that would make him a must have player.
But Varcoe showed real signs of getting back "there" near the end of this season, and like Teriyakicat said, we don't know what instructions he was playing under as he never got dropped.
Anyway, I would put you in the majority category as seeing all along what the MC finally saw, and some like me in the minority. As you say, players like Gillies, Brown, Blake, Gamble, Burbury, Eardley, Bathie, Grima (find it hard to add Varcoe to that list as he is a dual p'ship player and was instrumental in those 2 games) have all been delisted, and none of them have come back to bite us. Yet all of those I somehow thought would make it. Mea culpa.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Agree that Brown showed no real progress that would make him a must have player.
But Varcoe showed real signs of getting back "there" near the end of this season, and like Teriyakicat said, we don't know what instructions he was playing under as he never got dropped.
Anyway, I would put you in the majority category as seeing all along what the MC finally saw, and some like me in the minority. As you say, players like Gillies, Brown, Blake, Gamble, Burbury, Eardley, Bathie, Grima (find it hard to add Varcoe to that list as he is a dual p'ship player and was instrumental in those 2 games) have all been delisted, and none of them have come back to bite us. Yet all of those I somehow thought would make it. Mea culpa.

I really liked what I saw of Eardley
And I really wanted Brown to find 3rd gear and make either a forward or defensive position his own...
With my optimism (with respect to players' abilities) I think I'm doomed to a lifetime of disappointment and crushing reality.

 

[Vdubs]

I was one who caught you in the "Varcoe haters" net unintentionally, ypo It appears that you haven't forgiven me or accepted my apology (at least I *THINK* I apologised..)

I'm a bit like Vdubs in that I try and find the good in people- players, posters, whatever. I'm always trying to work out why Varcoe was picked week after week by the MC when there were young players lining up crying for a chance at senior footy. There must've been something there for him to be picked - also Brown, when his turn came. Something he (Varcoe, in particular) had that nobody else had- and not just a 6-figure pay packet.

I thought I worked out the "play Varcoe" theory, having studied him a lot. But VC thought that was a crazy notion, ie, super-decoy, a quick , creative, skilled outside player, just running up and down waiting to be linked up, then run off and create havoc. I srsly believe our players had less time to find him near the end, and he was often neglected opportunities. Anyway, no spilt milk here, he has gone, and we have plenty to look fwd to. I do struggle to admit or accept that he was flawed or defective, but there are enough on our board and the Pies board who don't rate him at all.
Will be interesting to see him at Pieland.
Was nearly going to apologise for discussing TV on this thread, BUT, it is the opposition thread.

 

[Vdubs]

I really liked what I saw of Eardley
And I really wanted Brown to find 3rd gear and make either a forward or defensive position his own...
With my optimism (with respect to players' abilities) I think I'm doomed to a lifetime of disappointment and crushing reality.

Do we know each other?

 

[Teriyakicat]

Do we know each other?

Long lost twins, maybe?

 

[Teriyakicat]

I thought I worked out the "play Varcoe" theory, having studied him a lot. But VC thought that was a crazy notion, ie, super-decoy, a quick , creative, skilled outside player, just running up and down waiting to be linked up, then run off and create havoc. I srsly believe our players had less time to find him near the end, and he was often neglected opportunities. Anyway, no spilt milk here, he has gone, and we have plenty to look fwd to. I do struggle to admit or accept that he was flawed or defective, but there are enough on our board and the Pies board who don't rate him at all.
Will be interesting to see him at Pieland.
Was nearly going to apologise for discussing TV on this thread, BUT, it is the opposition thread.

Varcoe did a phenomenal amount of running- he was often running within hand balling distance of a teammate who was streaming forward, ready to receive and carry the ball further forward and faster but, all too often, I observed him being ignored in favour of the "kick it in high and slow to Hawkins" game plan, enabling two defenders to get back to assist Hawkins' opponent.
Just made me and I wondered why nobody wanted to pass to Varcoe- I thought maybe he was our Plan B, a Get Out Of Jail card, the parachute ripcord or Break Glass In Case Of Emergency - ie the option to go to if Hawkins had 4+ opponents.

 

[Vdubs]

Varcoe did a phenomenal amount of running- he was often running within hand balling distance of a teammate who was streaming forward, ready to receive and carry the ball further forward and faster but, all too often, I observed him being ignored in favour of the "kick it in high and slow to Hawkins" game plan, enabling two defenders to get back to assist Hawkins' opponent.
Just made me and I wondered why nobody wanted to pass to Varcoe- I thought maybe he was our Plan B, a Get Out Of Jail card, the parachute ripcord or Break Glass In Case Of Emergency - ie the option to go to if Hawkins had 4+ opponents.

He certainly was the ultimate gut-runner at Geelong, and having repeated foot stress fractures does NOT help that sort of player.

 

[DanA]

I thought with the exception of 2013 Varcoe was pretty decent. Never really delivered on his potentially but did a lot of defensive work which kept him in the side when he otherwise maybe should have been dropped. Not nearly as bad as Meto made out though IMO.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I thought with the exception of 2013 Varcoe was pretty decent. Never really delivered on his potentially but did a lot of defensive work which kept him in the side when he otherwise maybe should have been dropped. Not nearly as bad as Meto made out though IMO.

meto is a stirrer. I would take his complaints about Varcoe with a grain of salt. Secretly he wishes he could be like Varcoe, I'm sure!

 

[Teriyakicat]

DanA , what did you think of the way he was used this year? I noticed that a lot of posters regarded him more favourably when it appeared that his orders from the coach changed from a defensive role to a more attacking role.

 

[DanA]

meto is a stirrer. I would take his complaints about Varcoe with a grain of salt. Secretly he wishes he could be like Varcoe, I'm sure!

I actually rate what he says but there was an extraordinary amount of hate towards Varcoe from him. I remember calling him "your man Varcoe" once and it seemed to really piss him off far more than was intended.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

DanA , what did you think of the way he was used this year? I noticed that a lot of posters regarded him more favourably when it appeared that his orders from the coach changed from a defensive role to a more attacking role.

Moving Varcoe to the backline was another failed attempt by Scott to add "versatility" to the team, by moving a player from a role he was suited to to one that he was not.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I actually rate what he says but there was an extraordinary amount of hate towards Varcoe from him. I remember calling him "your man Varcoe" once and it seemed to really piss him off far more than was intended.

It could be just that he took up a stronger opposing corner as counterbalance to those like me and Vdubs who were trying to find reasons for make excuses for Varcoe's continued selection.

 

[DanA]

DanA , what did you think of the way he was used this year? I noticed that a lot of posters regarded him more favourably when it appeared that his orders from the coach changed from a defensive role to a more attacking role.

I didn't like it at all. I hated seeing him in one on one marking contests and while teams twigged on it a bit, I think it could have been exploited more as Varcoe was dire in that situation early on. At the very start of the season we were brilliant with forward pressure and I think Varcoe, McCarthy and Murdoch patrolling our 50 was a big part of early season form, in particular against Hawthorn where there HB line was destroyed. For some reason though Scott change it (perhaps it was too taxing). When Varcoe moved back initially he was terrible and it was really hard to warrant his inclusion in the team but I think he was okay in his last few outings there. Still think though as a defensive forward while he might have only got 7-8 possessions he was causing 5-6 turnover with tackles, deflections or pressure and that was well worth it. I actually think that was a turning point in our season, we massive declined IMO when we stopped applying manic pressure inside our attacking 50.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I didn't like it at all. I hated seeing him in one on one marking contests and while teams twigged on it a bit, I think it could have been exploited more as Varcoe was dire in that situation early on. At the very start of the season we were brilliant with forward pressure and I think Varcoe, McCarthy and Murdoch patrolling our 50 was a big part of early season form, in particular against Hawthorn where there HB line was destroyed. For some reason though Scott change it (perhaps it was too taxing). When he moved back initially he was terrible but I think was okay in his last few outings there. As a defensive forward though he maybe only got 7-8 possessions but the way I saw it was he often cause 5-6 turnover which lead to us scoring goals making him well worth it.

Pretty much how I saw it, too. I thought also that it was exhausting to play that game and figured he was going to be used in that way once finals rolled around.
Of course, by then the rucks had collapsed, the midfielders and backup ruck had no cohesion and Plan A had fallen apart. We'd also lost Burbury and McCarthy - or they hadn't gained confidence- and I think Varcoe was sent to plug a hole in defence when that game plan got shelved.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Moving Varcoe to the backline was another failed attempt by Scott to add "versatility" to the team, by moving a player from a role he was suited to to one that he was not.

I don't know the reason behind the move, BB, but hazard a guess that it wouldn't have just been a coach's whim. I do know that we had a really bad run with injuries and, at times, it felt like we were shuffling deck-chairs on the Titanic but I don't think Varcoe was moved for the fun of it.
Do you think he played better as a defensive forward or as an attacking defender?
And did you actually watch his elite running patterns?

 

[DanA]

I don't know the reason behind the move, BB, but hazard a guess that it wouldn't have just been a coach's whim. I do know that we had a really bad run with injuries and, at times, it felt like we were shuffling deck-chairs on the Titanic but I don't think Varcoe was moved for the fun of it.
Do you think he played better as a defensive forward or as an attacking defender?
And did you actually watch his elite running patterns?

I suspect the idea behind it was to give us run and carry out of the backline. You've got to think for instance that footage of Varcoe gathering in the defensive goal square and then 30 seconds later having a shot was the type of thing Scott was after. But I personally think that was a bit flawed because Varcoe doesn't actually carry the ball in traffic well. He links up in space, and might take a bounce out on the wing before delivering inside 50 but when has he ever weaved through traffic like Wojak, I think we tried to make him that. I suspect Scott was thinking he'd be willing to accept a bit of defensive frailty to get that in our game, for me it was a pipe dream and using Smedts in that role was worse. Nakia though, I think that could work.

 

[Teriyakicat]

I suspect the idea behind it was to give us run and carry out of the backline. You've got to think for instance that footage of Varcoe gathering in the defensive goal square and then 30 seconds later having a shot was the type of thing Scott was after. But I personally think that was a bit flawed because Varcoe doesn't actually carry the ball in traffic well. He links up in space, and might take a bounce out on the wing before delivering inside 50 but when has he ever weaved through traffic like Wojak, I think we tried to make him that. I suspect Scott was thinking he'd be willing to accept a bit of defensive frailty to get that in our game, for me it was a pipe dream and using Smedts in that role was worse. Nakia though, I think that could work.

Good point about the failed run and carry- maybe the reason the link-up play didn't gel was because of the fact that we really couldn't get any continuity happening with personnel in the team and there were quite a few inexperienced players plus lack of generals to point them in the right direction.
Things start to look shaky when the experienced players are trying to assist the younger blokes when they've lost a few yards themselves, so are not looking at what they're meant to be doing quite as closely... It all gets a bit messy and starts to crumble.
Once a crack appears somewhere, pressure is on the rest of the nearby players to put their finger in the dyke, and the effects become domino-like.

I really thought our first few games were very good but the cracks started to appear and we looked like we were flying by the seat of our pants at times. We were saved by some superhuman efforts from players like Selwood and Hawkins at times but it just looked like the team was limping along into the finals.

Smedts in defence- definitely didn't work. Nakia? I dunno.

 

[The rabbi]

Blaine Boekhorst @bboekhorst9 Follow
Ecstatic to be joining the @CarltonFC . Love seeing them succeed and hate seeing the downside! Always followed them closely!
http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne...carltons-top-draft-pick-already-in-hot-water/
9:24 PM - 27 Nov 2014

Blaine Boekhorst may have a few uncomfortable early meetings and training sessions with the coach at Cartlon.

http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne...carltons-top-draft-pick-already-in-hot-water/