Religion The God Question (continued in Part 2 - link in last post)

[Sydney Bloods]

So many people who describe the same thing are all stating something false? Perhaps all of the people who have seen China with their own eyes have "eye witness memory", because that is what you claim when you say that more than a thousand people who saw the same thing had "eye witness memory". It is unreasonable cynicalism

you have a book that says thousands of people saw these "miracles" that's hardly the same thing.

we also today have tens of thousands of people who they have either seen or been in contact with aliens.

produce for me 50% of these people's claims thats 500 hundred written or oral accounts of "seeing" the same thing, using the words of the original eyewitnesses if you would?

anyone can claim they saw something and anyone writing a book can claim thousands of other people did as well.

it's not unreasonable cynicism, its basic fact checking who are these people where are THEIR ACCOUNTS? its basic a principle of research.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

everyone's aware of the Hamil. if your seriously suggesting oral traditions never changed your a off with the fairies.
without written txt their worthless and you know it or would if you actually understood the basics of historical record which should have been addressed in your BOS course. evidence based research is a core tenet of science.

and you can't not include the 7 among 2 transmitted texts its expressly forbidden. there's a reason they were collected separately.
and if they all never changed the meaning explain for example shifting status of Basmalah between Warsh and the Haf's version's of the Quran?

The Basmalah is "Bismil-Laahir-RaHmaanir-RaHeem" and means:

"Bismillaah" - I start with the name of Allaah
"Ar-RaHmaan" - The One Who is merciful to the non-believers and the believers in this life, and the One Who is merciful to only the believers in the Hereafter
"Ar-RaHeem" - The One Who is merciful to only the believers in the Hereafter
. You may find a different recitation being recited of the Qur'aan, (like a differing vowels for example) but still carry the same meaning. Arabic is not like English.

I tell you that you do not realize the way the Arabic language is, because one thing can be said in many different ways, and one word can have many meanings, including opposing meanings. Some words, like "lion" can be said in a thousand ways. The Arabic language is rich.

We use oral transmission through memorization as well as documentation. Knowing it by heart prevents the ability of others to try to pervert books through writing. Through memorization, people were able to preserve the authentic SaHeeh Al-Bukhaariyy after some tried to pervert it when translating it from Arabic to English. It is a custom for people among the Muslims to memorise books and volumes, and it is these people that are able to protect the written documents from perversion.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

well if you don't mind, could you recite the post number where you actually explain why your taking the course instead of repeating that you're taking it.

So that I can get into a graduate degree to be brief. I do agree that I should have just repeated myself and not assume that people have read the part where I said it. That was pretty rude of me, sorry

 

[scon]

Quality thread.
Will memorise.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

you have a book that says thousands of people saw these "miracles" that's hardly the same thing.

we also today have tens of thousands of people who they have either seen or been in contact with aliens.

produce for me 50% of these people's claims thats 500 hundred written or oral accounts of "seeing" the same thing, using the words of the original eyewitnesses if you would?

anyone can claim they saw something and anyone writing a book can claim thousands of other people did as well.

it's not unreasonable cynicism, its basic fact checking who are these people where are THEIR ACCOUNTS? its basic a principle of research.

I am a student of this Knowledge rather than a scholar. It isn't me that scientists have to approach in order to obtain it. I do not even live nor have I evenr lived or learned in the Arabian countries, where the source of these documentations are located. Have I seen the books of the scholars that mention this? Yes. But the thing is, most of these books + their narrations are in Arabic. Producing them on here will do little for non-arabic speakers.

Muslim scholars are strict in the way that they report things, and there is a level of Knowledge someone has to reach until they are considered a scholar. The sayings of some scholars have more weighting than others. You do not understand the concept of scholarhood in Islam, so the assumption that what they have reported wrong does not have a base. Remember, not anyone has the ability to proclaim themselves to be a scholar in Islam unlike the way it is in science West. I could publish a paper and then be considered a scholar. In Islam a scholar entails a higher level of knowledge in comparison

I mentioned this to someone else before this. My current aim is not to provide you with a chain of narrations for anything. I am here to prove to you that chains of narrations are authentic. You will not benefit from seeing those chains of narrations if you do not believe they are authentic in the first place

 

[Sydney Bloods]

The Basmalah is "Bismil-Laahir-RaHmaanir-RaHeem" and means:

"Bismillaah" - I start with the name of Allaah
"Ar-RaHmaan" - The One Who is merciful to the non-believers and the believers in this life, and the One Who is merciful to only the believers in the Hereafter
"Ar-RaHeem" - The One Who is merciful to only the believers in the Hereafter
. You may find a different recitation being recited of the Qur'aan, (like a differing vowels for example) but still carry the same meaning. Arabic is not like English.

I tell you that you do not realize the way the Arabic language is, because one thing can be said in many different ways, and one word can have many meanings, including opposing meanings. Some words, like "lion" can be said in a thousand ways. The Arabic language is rich.

We use oral transmission through memorization as well as documentation. Knowing it by heart prevents the ability of others to try to pervert books through writing. Through memorization, people were able to preserve the authentic SaHeeh Al-Bukhaariyy after some tried to pervert it when translating it from Arabic to English. It is a custom for people among the Muslims to memorise books and volumes, and it is these people that are able to protect the written documents from perversion.

thats not what i'm talking about i'm talking about its status not its meaning.
one Quran regards it as an actual surah while the other regards it as little more than a blessing.

this is why tone and intent is so important.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

we also today have tens of thousands of people who they have either seen or been in contact with aliens

But these 10,000s of people did not see the same thing at the same time with the same description. One reports a flying saucer one day, and no one else does. The next day, a family claims that they saw a flying object and no one else does. If you can see this, these people could have conspired to fool the people

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I am a student of this Knowledge rather than a scholar. It isn't me that scientists have to approach in order to obtain it. I do not even live nor have I evenr lived or learned in the Arabian countries, where the source of these documentations are located. Have I seen the books of the scholars that mention this? Yes. But the thing is, most of these books + their narrations are in Arabic. Producing them on here will do little for non-arabic speakers.

Muslim scholars are strict in the way that they report things, and there is a level of Knowledge someone has to reach until they are considered a scholar. The sayings of some scholars have more weighting than others. You do not understand the concept of scholarhood in Islam, so the assumption that what they have reported wrong does not have a base. Remember, not anyone has the ability to proclaim themselves to be a scholar in Islam unlike the way it is in science West. I could publish a paper and then be considered a scholar. In Islam a scholar entails a higher level of knowledge in comparison

I mentioned this to someone else before this. My current aim is not to provide you with a chain of narrations for anything. I am here to prove to you that chains of narrations are authentic. You will not benefit from seeing those chains of narrations if you do not believe they are authentic in the first place

and where are these sources? i will go find them tell me where what countries what museums where are these texts?
here's a hint there are none, you will not find any that are not located within the Quran the hadith or nor even the shi books.
there's zero original documents, nothing.

you're not anything special its rubbish like every other book. take your assumption that the recitations are a result of people attempting to corrupt the text when translating into english. patently false, the practice existed before even old english was spoken anywhere. old english didn't even become language until the 13th century.

and this is the point, islam claims its unchanged yet can provide no evidence it is. you if you understood your BOS you'd understand you accept nothing on face value. If you have evidence you produce it.

again like a child we another religious twit trying to shift goal posts and demand people disprove their claims rather than supply evidence.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

thats not what i'm talking about i'm talking about its status not its meaning.
one Quran regards it as an actual surah while the other regards it as little more than a blessing.

this is why tone and intent is so important.

oooohhhh, I think you are talking about different Madhaahibs (schools of thought) derived from different interpretations of the Qur'aan, not different Qur'aans. I see what you mean. In Imaam Ash-Shaafi^iyy's school of thought, the Basmalah is considered a verse of a Surah (not a Surah in itself) in every verse except for Surat At-Tawbah, whereas in other schools of thought, it is not considered a part of a Surah, but rather a recommended act to start off with. Yes, this is true. We Muslims know that there are different schools of thought by qualified scholars that have reached the level of Mujtahid Mutlaq. Each has evidence for their claim according to the Arabic language (since I mentioned that the Arabic language has many meanings) with the textual evidence such as the Qur'aan and the Hadeeths. We are allowed to take the saying of any of those scholars and follow it. The four famous schools of thoughts are the schools of Imam Ash-Shaafi^iyy, Imaam Abu Haneefah, Imaam AHmad Ibn Hanbal and Imaam Maalik. Of course, there is one of those sayings that is correct, but we take the difference of opinion as a mercy to us. Sometimes, a person's prayer may not be valid according to one school of thought, so they may be able to take the saying of another school of thought. One is not authorised to derive judgements from the Islamic texts if they have not reached a certain high level of knowledge, and must have evidence to prove their claim

 

[Sydney Bloods]

But these 10,000s of people did not see the same thing at the same time with the same description. One reports a flying saucer one day, and no one else does. The next day, a family claims that they saw a flying object and no one else does. If you can see this, these people could have conspired to fool the people

there's been a s**t ton of mass ufo sightings all witnesses saying the same thing, hell back in 60's i think it was the US scrambled military jets when so many people saw lights in the sky over washington that the switchboard packed up.

hell even mass sighting over phoenix texas and mexico were caught on film.

but here's a key point, most of the time despite what all the "eyewitnesses" saw and claimed and how it was all a like. 90% of them have been debunked. and the remaining 10% even with video are not proof enough of aliens.

so why is a 1000 year old testimony by peasants considered any better?
the fact is, it's not. eyewitness testimony is the most untrustworthy source of information.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

and where are these sources? i will go find them tell me where what countries what museums where are these texts?
here's a hint there are none, you will not find any that are not located within the Quran the hadith or nor even the shi books.
there's zero original documents, nothing.

you're not anything special its rubbish like every other book. take your assumption that the recitations are a result of people attempting to corrupt the text when translating into english. patently false, the practice existed before even old english was spoken anywhere. old english didn't even become language until the 13th century.

and this is the point, islam claims its unchanged yet can provide no evidence it is. you if you understood your BOS you'd understand you accept nothing on face value. If you have evidence you produce it.

again like a child we another religious twit trying to shift goal posts and demand people disprove their claims rather than supply evidence.

I can direct you to speak to the people in Lebanon, Beirut. If you truly seek the truth, you would go there and ask. I am being serious as well. In fact, learn the Arabic language if you do not already and go to Beirut so that you yourself can understand without needing others to translate.

Do not deny something without having seen it yourself

 

[Sydney Bloods]

oooohhhh, I think you are talking about different Madhaahibs (schools of thought) derived from different interpretations of the Qur'aan, not different Qur'aans. I see what you mean. In Imaam Ash-Shaafi^iyy's school of thought, the Basmalah is considered a verse of a Surah (not a Surah in itself) in every verse except for Surat At-Tawbah, whereas in other schools of thought, it is not considered a part of a Surah, but rather a recommended act to start off with. Yes, this is true. We Muslims know that there are different schools of thought by qualified scholars that have reached the level of Mujtahid Mutlaq. Each has evidence for their claim according to the Arabic language (since I mentioned that the Arabic language has many meanings) with the textual evidence such as the Qur'aan and the Hadeeths. We are allowed to take the saying of any of those scholars and follow it. The four famous schools of thoughts are the schools of Imam Ash-Shaafi^iyy, Imaam Abu Haneefah, Imaam AHmad Ibn Hanbal and Imaam Maalik. Of course, there is one of those sayings that is correct, but we take the difference of opinion as a mercy to us. Sometimes, a person's prayer may not be valid according to one school of thought, so they may be able to take the saying of another school of thought. One is not authorised to derive judgements from the Islamic texts if they have not reached a certain high level of knowledge, and must have evidence to prove their claim

you haven't addressed my point at all. Islam claims it is unchanged true they got nothing wrong didn't miss translate anything yet can't agree on the point of line of text. which comes from inclination and tone. if the original texts survived this could be fact checked especially when even the arrangements of texts were changed over time.

there is simply no way to verify the claim and demands an extraordinary leap of faith that errors did not occur.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I can direct you to speak to the people in Lebanon, Beirut. If you truly seek the truth, you would go there and ask. I am being serious as well. In fact, learn the Arabic language if you do not already and go to Beirut so that you yourself can understand without needing others to translate.

Do not deny something without having seen it yourself

who? names organisations if you will, theres like 300,000 people in beirut. or should i just dial the operator ask for "the people" which documents am i asking for?

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

there's been a s**t ton of mass ufo sightings all witnesses saying the same thing, hell back in 60's i think it was the US scrambled military jets when so many people saw lights in the sky over washington that the switchboard packed up.

hell even mass sighting over phoenix texas and mexico were caught on film.

but here's a key point, most of the time despite what all the "eyewitnesses" saw and claimed and how it was all a like. 90% of them have been debunked. and the remaining 10% even with video are not proof enough of aliens.

so why is a 1000 year old testimony by peasants considered any better?
the fact is, it's not. eyewitness testimony is the most untrustworthy source of information.

There are many rejected things nowadays by scientists that have been witnessed by many people and have a basis to be true. Do I think aliens are one of them? No. Why? Because they are not reported to an extent that people have could not have conspired to fool others.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

who? names organisations if you will, theres like 300,000 people in beirut. or should i just dial the operator ask for "the people" which documents am i asking for?

They are called "Jam^iyyatul Mashaaree^il Khayriyatul Islaamiyyah". Prepare to learn Arabic, because most Islamic texts are not translated into English

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

you haven't addressed my point at all. Islam claims it is unchanged true they got nothing wrong didn't miss translate anything yet can't agree on the point of line of text. which comes from inclination and tone. if the original texts survived this could be fact checked especially when even the arrangements of texts were changed over time.

there is simply no way to verify the claim and demands an extraordinary leap of faith that errors did not occur.

They have all used the same Qur'aan to derive their meanings. All the different interpretations have quoted the same verse and interpreted it. The verse they use is unchanged. You are seriously underestimating how much care is put into transmitting this information. Just because it is not witnessed from the people that you have experience with does not mean that there are others who do not take such great care in transmitting information

 

[Sydney Bloods]

There are many rejected things nowadays by scientists that have been witnessed by many people and have a basis to be true. Do I think aliens are one of them? No. Why? Because they are not reported to an extent that people have could not have conspired to fool others.

and a lack of actual evidence would suggest thats crap. i've given you a link which explains exactly why the human memory is faulty if you like i can link you to psychological studies into belief and people entire towns tricking themselves into believing something that never actually occurred.

eyewitnesses especially around faith christians also have many eyewitness accounts about jesus raising the dead and all whole host of other s**t. and yet they like your holy texts have no roster of names no copies of original eyewitnesses themselves.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

who? names organisations if you will, theres like 300,000 people in beirut. or should i just dial the operator ask for "the people" which documents am i asking for?

I will give you its name in actual arabic writing. Hang on

 

[Sydney Bloods]

They have all used the same Qur'aan to derive their meanings. All the different interpretations have quoted the same verse and interpreted it. The verse they use is unchanged. You are seriously underestimating how much care is put into transmitting this information. Just because it is not witnessed from the people that you have experience with does not mean that there are others who do not take such great care in transmitting information

thats got nothing do with it, it matter not how hard they try if the source they get it from is 100% accurate to begin with, even if you believe no one ever stuffed it up you still rely on uhmann not being full of s**t.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

who? names organisations if you will, theres like 300,000 people in beirut. or should i just dial the operator ask for "the people" which documents am i asking for?

جمعية المشاريع الخيرية الإسلامية

 

[Sydney Bloods]

They are called "Jam^iyyatul Mashaaree^il Khayriyatul Islaamiyyah". Prepare to learn Arabic, because most Islamic texts are not translated into English

so just so i'm clear here I'm after these guys? http://www.aicp.org/
they have original texts? of 1000 witness testimonies?
Haifas original manuscripts?

at the very least copies of them?

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

thats got nothing do with it, it matter not how hard they try if the source they get it from is 100% accurate to begin with, even if you believe no one ever stuffed it up you still rely on uhmann not being full of s**t.

Each and every verse that they have used is documented in their books, and they all used the same verse. This shows that the verses are not changed. Why? Because they interpret differently the same verse.

Honestly, my participation in the conversation ends here. It does not seem that you, or anyone else on this forum that has commented, will accept what I see as evidence, and I will tell you that I will not accept your evidences because (to sum the entire few days worth of conversation up) I find them insufficient for the conclusion that was derived at, wrong and ignoring valid evidence. We can sit here day and night and it does not seem like anyone is going to accept the other's view. I have already said what I wanted to say and I think it should be enough for others who will read this forum without commenting to ponder about what I said

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Each and every verse that they have used is documented in their books, and they all used the same verse. This shows that the verses are not changed. Why? Because they interpret differently the same verse.

Honestly, my participation in the conversation ends here. It does not seem that you, or anyone else on this forum that has commented, will accept what I see as evidence, and I will tell you that I will not accept your evidences because (to sum the entire few days worth of conversation up) I find them insufficient for the conclusion that was derived at, wrong and ignoring valid evidence. We can sit here day and night and it does not seem like anyone is going to accept the other's view. I have already said what I wanted to say and I think it should be enough for others who will read this forum without commenting to ponder about what I said

they language in verse does change just like it changes in every different version of the bible. the language is not exactly the same no matter how you slice it. the meaning of the languge of the bible also doesn't change despite the fact that the writing its the language does.

if it were exact it would be identical in and of itself.

 

[Tichmond Rigers]

so just so i'm clear here I'm after these guys? http://www.aicp.org/
they have original texts? of 1000 witness testimonies?
Haifas original manuscripts?

at the very least copies of them?

Travel to them and see what they got in regards to chain of narrations of miracles. You do not need to have the testimonies of all one thousand people to confirm something. You can have the testimonies of many who all witnessed that they were many to the extent that they could not all have conspired to fool every one. The latter point is the main thing. It is like people, one after the other, walking out of a building saying that there was a fire in a building in a way that they could not have conspired to fool everyone around them. You do not need the account of every member present when the fire happened.

Yes they are, and I will leave you at it. I can guarantee you that the people behind that website have the right Islamic knowledge. I think ringing up the ones in the main office in Lebanon is a better idea though. But it is better for you to learn the Arabic language and sit down with one of the Knowledgeable people in Beirut so they can show you. Also, it isn't likely that the people in the main office speak good English. Many of these texts are not translated into English though. Mainly the stories and books of the Obligatory Knowledge and its like are translated into English. But it all depends on how dedicated you are to seeking the truth

This is officially my last post on this forum, because the truth is, I do not think that the people who commented on my posts will change their ways or views. I am not going to continue for the sake of arguing. Even if you see these chains, you have not accepted that chains of narrations is a valid evidence, so signs show that you will not accept them even if you see them

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Travel to them and see what they got in regards to chain of narrations of miracles. You do not need to have the testimonies of all one thousand people to confirm something. You can have the testimonies of many who all witnessed that they were many to the extent that they could not all have conspired to fool every one. The latter point is the main thing. It is like people, one after the other, walking out of a building saying that there was a fire in a building in a way that they could not have conspired to fool everyone around them. You do not need the account of every member present when the fire happened.

Yes they are, and I will leave you at it. I can guarantee you that the people behind that website have the right Islamic knowledge. I think ringing up the ones in the main office in Lebanon is a better idea though. But it is better for you to learn the Arabic language and sit down with one of the Knowledgeable people in Beirut so they can show you. Also, it isn't likely that the people in the main office speak good English. Many of these texts are not translated into English though. Mainly the stories and books of the Obligatory Knowledge and its like are translated into English. But it all depends on how dedicated you are to seeking the truth

This is officially my last post on this forum, because the truth is, I do not think that the people who commented on my posts will change their ways or views. I am not going to continue for the sake of arguing. Even if you see these chains, you have not accepted that chains of narrations is a valid evidence, so signs show that you will not accept them even if you see them

so now theres other evidence of miracles this will be good.