Research Unknown best and fairest players

[the croucher]

Yes - some of the Trove stuff is too blurry to be really useful so a second source is useful here

As to Hawthorn, the official club record for "B&F" has 1925 Fred Finch and 1927 Ern Utting while your research shows
1925 no B & F noted
F Finch (best all-round)
S McKenzie (most consistent)

1927 no B & F noted
E Poole (best all-round)
E Utting (most consistent)

Recognition seems inconsistent between 1925 and 1927
Looks like Ted Pool has been ripped off here... (my guess being best all-round > most consistent)

Yes, I agree that Poole should be shown as club champion for 1927 instead of Utting. However, I think it is only in the last 30-40 years that clubs have generally listed winners pre-World War Two so I don't blame anyone at Hawthorn for not realising the "modern list" is not quite as accurate as one would expect. I'll raise it with the Hawks history & museum staff next week.

Next week on my site I'll start to load my findings for other periods, and hope to have a complete set (i.e. 1897 - 2013) ready by mid - September.

 

[the croucher]

Think I've found another one.
1925 for Carlton - C McSwain was awarded the most consistent trophy.
Cannot find a higher ranking award for that season so I think the mc trophy should enable him to be listed as club champion.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=axIRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=79cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7268,4854186

 

[royals1922]

Think I've found another one.
1925 for Carlton - C McSwain was awarded the most consistent trophy.
Cannot find a higher ranking award for that season so I think the mc trophy should enable him to be listed as club champion.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=axIRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=79cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7268,4854186

Croucher, I've searched for this stuff before.

The difficulty is that not every newspaper published the same report about meetings. So the Age report and the Sun report may be different to the Argus report.

I am firmly of the view they had trophy nights most years but you need to go to every meeting from every contemporary newspaper to do so.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Think I've found another one.
1925 for Carlton - C McSwain was awarded the most consistent trophy.
Cannot find a higher ranking award for that season so I think the mc trophy should enable him to be listed as club champion.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=axIRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=79cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7268,4854186

From 1928
The Age: Hawthorn (no clear award other than Hyde for leading goal-kicker, but M. Sellers is mentioned as one of the five recipients of "presentations") and Footscray (A. Outen received "Most Consistent" award)
The Argus: Hawthorn has no mention of any awards

 

[the croucher]

Croucher, I've searched for this stuff before.

The difficulty is that not every newspaper published the same report about meetings. So the Age report and the Sun report may be different to the Argus report.

I am firmly of the view they had trophy nights most years but you need to go to every meeting from every contemporary newspaper to do so.

Yes, that is fair enough point, but I had in that case already checked The Argus report
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3735554
It mentions players receiving presentations but doesn't specify reason for them. McSwain's name is in middle of list.
Will be of interest later when opportunity arises to see if Sun, Herald or Sporting Globe carry reports of the Carlton meeting.

 

[royals1922]

Think I've found another one.
1925 for Carlton - C McSwain was awarded the most consistent trophy.
Cannot find a higher ranking award for that season so I think the mc trophy should enable him to be listed as club champion.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=axIRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=79cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7268,4854186

Found another. Ernie Jamieson Carlton 1914 , location the Age 29 January 1915. Jamieson was awarded it for special good play in a premiership year.

 

[SJ]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...-and-fairest-win/story-fnjuhovy-1227196173297

Dick Grigg has been formally acknowledged as the 1912 Geelong best and fairest.

 

[royals1922]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...-and-fairest-win/story-fnjuhovy-1227196173297

Dick Grigg has been formally acknowledged as the 1912 Geelong best and fairest.

We are only hitting the start of this process. With more stuff hitting trove, the process will be speeded up

 

[the croucher]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...-and-fairest-win/story-fnjuhovy-1227196173297

Dick Grigg has been formally acknowledged as the 1912 Geelong best and fairest.

Yes, I saw that story.
Trophy looks surprisingly "new" don't you think.

And given Grigg's alleged success (club claims him to be winner of 1910, 1911, 1914 B&F too), and the apparent long-standing history project undertaken by the club, then I'm quite amazed that this "1912" trophy has supposedly only just been found...and where are the pics of his three other trophies/medals, or indeed, any reference in the newspapers of the time to him winning ANY of the four awards ?

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
Personally, I don't think the Austral Trophy should be counted as a club award as it seems to me to be a "popular vote by public" one sponsored by a business. Appreciated by the club and players no doubt, but not one to show in a list of "club champion winners." I think Syd Coventry should be shown as Collingwood's winner in 1924 as he was named "most consistent" trophy winner at the club's annual meeting in March 1925:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2064549

I agree that J Gregory should be listed as winner of North Melbourne's "club champion" for 1930
The Age 18 December that year (no online link to article but use this to get to front page)
http://news.google.com.au/newspapers?id=Y61hAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sZYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6989,4001007
and then scroll to page 4 column 6

..aah..easier to find the Gregory ref now that The Age is on Trove
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203276820

 

[the croucher]

this post was originally put on the "List of inaccuracies..." thread..I have copied it here thinking it suited the "unknown B&F" thread even more

35Daicos....Was wondering if I might trouble you by taking advantage of your sleuthing skills re footy archives.

There has always been a 'gap' in the Hawthorn history of the Best & Fairest award with regards both the 1926 & 1931 seasons.....No one seems to know who won the award in those years or whether or not there was one awarded to begin with.

If you have a look on page 199 of the 2017 AFL Record Season guide, then you'll see the missing info to which I refer atop that page.

This one would be a real feather in your cap should you be able to crack it.....Cheers mate.

 

[the croucher]

..and here is another I've copied from the inaccuracy thread, thinking it suits unknown B&F even better..

Also, while I'm at it 35Daicos....

Richmond are also missing a best & fairest for 1930 & 1931.
North Melb are missing 1930-1931 & 1933-1934
Geelong are missing 1924-1926
Carlton are missing 1930-1933
Fitzroy are missing 1928 & 1930-1933 & 1936-1943.
Essendon from 1903-1905 & 1914-1919.

It's worth noting that some clubs didn't appear to award one until later on, such as:

Collingwood from 1927 onward.
Melbourne from 1935 onward.
South Melb from 1926 onward.
Footscray from 1927 onward.

Or perhaps the records have been lost?

That whole era from 1925 through to 1934 appears very sketchy indeed....Only St.Kilda, Essendon & South Melb appear to buck the trend with meticulous records encompassing no gaps.

 

[the croucher]

There are quite a few matters on which I and the AFL History and AFL Publications staff disagree, but this thread relates to one where we have similar views. The following is a definition shown on page 8 of the 2018 Season Guide (and quite a few previous editions):
The term 'best and fairest' is used generically for simplicity. Some clubs have used the term 'Club Champion' and sometimes clubs have used terms such as 'Best Player' and 'Most Consistent' to refer to their best player award.
Indeed, the West Coast award winner each year is known as 'Club Champion,' not 'Best and Fairest.'

Accordingly, I'd ask those researching this subject to keep that in mind. I think acceptable terms besides the obvious B&F are:
Club Champion; Most Consistent; Best Player [for the season, not just one game !]; Best All-round player.

Not sure about Most Efficient [what do you think ?]

Definitely not Most Popular; Most Determined; Best at Training; Most Promising; Best First-Year [although that is an interesting one to keep note of for other reasons]

We can discuss other terms found in club trophy lists as we come across them.

 

[the croucher]

Oh, and in what order do you rank them ?

I think if a club trophy/award list includes multiple terms then Best All-round player is of higher ranking than Most Consistent,
but if 'allround' or 'best player' isn't shown for year then 'consistent' is club champion. And all of them are higher than Most Efficient,
but if that is listed is it the most obvious alternative ?
Or do we believe the honour roll [B&F] for that year should be left blank ?

 

[rbartlett]

From a Richmond point of view - there's research by the Historical Committee regarding B+F list. But I can't go any further into that at the moment.
So myself and Trevor Ruddell's list is here https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Best+and+Fairest , its currently not endorsed by the club, and as such the club's Best and Fairest version is here http://www.richmondfc.com.au/club/history/football-officials

In our revamped table we only recognise Best and Fairest, or Best Player (for the season), as in several years a 'Best All-round' award was present in conjunction with 'Best and Fairest' (or something with similar wording).
So we are comfortable to accept there were years when no B+F were awarded.

 

[the croucher]

Possible additions for club lists where gaps exist:
MELBOURNE - 1925 - R Corbett (Most Consistent award)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3737931

 

[the croucher]

Possible additions for club lists where gaps exist:
FOOTSCRAY - 1926 - F Aked (Most Consistent award)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3815168

 

[the croucher]

possible amendments required to club lists
ESSENDON - 1924 - at present shows T Fitzmaurice but no evidence found on Trove from September 1924 to March 1925 to confirm him receiving any trophy or award which was or might be construed as being 'club champion' for the 1924 season.
There is this article however: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203673623
which suggests N Beckton should be listed in that position on the honour roll, being awarded the 'most consistent' trophy for the season.

Further discussion with the club is needed, especially to check if they have original minute books, or annual report which lists Fitzmaurice as recipient of a suitable award.

 

[the croucher]

possible amendments required to club lists
HAWTHORN - present B&F list has 1925 F Finch, 1927 E Utting
There is a real problem here being lack of consistency in judging who is winner

1925 season - best all-round F Finch, most consistent S McKenzie
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3734914

1927 season - best all-round E Poole, most consistent E Utting
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3896321

If best all-round player is judged club champion above most consistent in a year where both awards are given in the same season,
shouldn't the same rule apply for any other year ?

Poole looks to have been hard done by in my opinion.

 

[Procrastinator35]

possible amendments required to club lists
HAWTHORN - present B&F list has 1925 F Finch, 1927 E Utting
There is a real problem here being lack of consistency in judging who is winner

1925 season - best all-round F Finch, most consistent S McKenzie
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3734914

1927 season - best all-round E Poole, most consistent E Utting
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3896321

If best all-round player is judged club champion above most consistent in a year where both awards are given in the same season,
shouldn't the same rule apply for any other year ?

Poole looks to have been hard done by in my opinion.

Cheers for that....So rather than clearing things up for me so far as 1926 & 1931 go, all you've done is to muddy the waters on season awards before & after.

 

[the croucher]

possible amendments required to club lists
NORTH MELBOURNE - 1932 - J Patterson
Where is the evidence that Patterson received a trophy/award suitably entitled as 'club champion.'
The only reference I can find so far is him being announced as "Most Popular Player."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4513006

Club champion awards are for playing efforts during a season, not popularity contests !

 

[the croucher]

Possible additions for club lists where gaps exist:
CARLTON - 1915 - C Hammond (Most Consistent award) [listed as H Hammond in the article]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154554615

CARLTON - 1925 - C McSwain (Most Consistent award)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155776924

 

[SgtSchulz]

Port Adelaide's 1878 Best and Fairest award was a kettle.

 

[stemline]

Hawthorn's 1931 AGM was held on Thursday 3rd of December, if that helps anyone.

I've looked in Argus, Age, Sporting Globe on Trove, no luck.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Hawthorn's 1931 AGM was held on Thursday 3rd of December, if that helps anyone.

I've looked in Argus, Age, Sporting Globe on Trove, no luck.

Can probably narrow it down to between 7 players I'd reckon.

Jack Ryan kicked 39 goals from 16 out of a possible 18 games....He'd be favorite you'd reckon, followed by Ted Poole with 23 goals from 16 games as first rover....Jim Francis & Ernie Utting played all 18 games, while Bert Mills, George Bennett & Bill Carey played 1n 17 of the 18.

For 1926 you could likewise narrow it down to between 7 players....Ted Pool kicked 15 goals from 16 out of 18 games, while only Jack Pickford played in all 18....Clarrie Lethlean, Fred Finch & Tom Everuss all played in 17 of the 18....With Frank Murphy & Paddy Burke playing 16 of the 18.

Having said that, you just know that the winner for both seasons was likely none of em.