Best forwardline duos

Oct 5, 2013
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They're not excuses, that's been one of the biggest evolutions in the game the last 15 years. The full-forward spot that Ablett occupied no longer exists in that form. Teams these days no longer rely on one or two key forwards as they did in the past and therefore there is less scoring done by said key forwards.

crock!
Hawkins is a perfect example of how the full forward position is alive and well. The biggest change has been in the center of the ground, not the forward lines.
In the past, a midfielder such as Diesel Williams who often kicked a goal each game was regarded as a very rare commodity, today, half the midfielders in the game are kicking a goal per game. They are a dime-a-dozen as Geelong was largely responsible for breaking away from the reliance of forwards and putting all of it's eggs into the midfielders basket to get the job done.
How many teams crave for two or three midfielders over 6ft'3?
They often go within the first round of the National draft before any highly touted key forward.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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Hawkins is a perfect example of how the full forward position is alive and well.

Nope, even Hawkins with his distaste for running isn't a full-forward. In 2014 he had a scoring shot with 33% of disposal. A full-forward was typically in the 50-60% range.

Over his career Hawkins averages 26%, which again is way off the mark for a full-forward.

He also averages less than 2 goals a game.

If that's your best example of a full-forward existing in the modern game my point is made.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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Nope, even Hawkins with his distaste for running isn't a full-forward. In 2014 he had a scoring shot with 33% of disposal. A full-forward was typically in the 50-60% range.

Over his career Hawkins averages 26%, which again is way off the mark for a full-forward.

He also averages less than 2 goals a game.

If that's your best example of a full-forward existing in the modern game my point is made.

perhaps it is mainly due to the fact we are talking about players who were ranked amongst the greatest players to ever play the game o_O
Hence, why they were able to consistently beat opponents and have a plethora of shots on goal.

Is Tom Hawkins even in the top 100 players of all time, let alone top 20 (or even top 10)?
If he was a top 20 player, I'm pretty sure he would be slotting upwards of 75, 85+ goals per year.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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perhaps it is mainly due to the fact we are talking about players who were ranked amongst the greatest players to ever play the game o_O
Hence, why they were able to consistently beat opponents and have a plethora of shots on goal.

No, we're talking about the percentage of times they have a scoring shot after getting the ball, not the number of times they are able to get the ball.

Hawkins generally doesn't have a shot when obtaining the ball, whereas your traditional full-forward had a shot on 60-70% of the time.
This doesn't relate to the abilities of the player. Mark Jackson went at over 50%, Allen Jakovich same.

This relates only to playing style and position on the ground. Since Tom Hawkins is a particularly long kick, his percentage of 26% would indicate that he doesn't play the traditional full-forward role.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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No, we're talking about the percentage of times they have a scoring shot after getting the ball, not the number of times they are able to get the ball.

You are talking about the percentage of times they have a shot on goal, not me. If you wish to specifically focus on that one criteria of the game then go right ahead. You often deliberately change a subject in order to get your point across.

I'm arguing truly great players will help shift a sport into a new direction. They maintain such a high standard in which their peers cannot obtain. This is what sets them apart from the rest.
Ablett Senior was a one in a million footballer. His athletic traits were ahead of his peers. This saw him stand out from the rest and it is why he booted 900+ goals during that period of time with Brownless alongside him.

It is why the Franklin v Ablett debate (which you embarrassingly embrace) is immediately debunked. Franklin had the opportunity to maintain a truly high standard in 2009, he could not, and in the years following, he never once got close to 100 goals. Are you saying the game changed within the space of one year which is why Franklin could not boot another 100 goals in 09?

I don't. I think there are not anywhere near as brilliant forwards as what we have had in the game. We currently have Franklin and . . . . Walker? Hawkins? Cloke?
 
Oct 23, 2014
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You are talking about the percentage of times they have a shot on goal, not me.

That's the problem, you're arguing with points I didn't make. So I'm going to remind you of the actual topic.

I'm arguing truly great players will help shift a sport into a new direction. They maintain such a high standard in which their peers cannot obtain. This is what sets them apart from the rest.

It is why the Franklin v Ablett debate (which you embarrassingly embrace) is immediately debunked.

Probably the other way around. Ablett kicked plenty of goals but nothing sensational for the era he was in, whereas Franklin remains the only home and away centurion since Tony Lockett, who we again are reminded played in a different era.

Are you saying the game changed within the space of one year which is why Franklin could not boot another 100 goals in 09?

No, just his position on the ground. Again a look at Franklin's scoring percentages would indicate that he played closer to goal in 2008 than any other year. So it's not surprising that this was his highest scoring season.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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Ablett kicked plenty of goals but nothing sensational for the era he was in, whereas Franklin remains the only home and away centurion since Tony Lockett, who we again are reminded played in a different era.

my point exactly.
We simply have not had enough quality forwards in the modern era but when you look at previous Coleman winners . . . no one kicked 100 goals until a bloke by the name of Gordon Coventry came around. He featured often until another bloke by the name of John Coleman debuted. What do those two forwards have in common podge?
What about the next era, Peter Hudson took over the mantle and took it to another level all over again.

In the 1980's and 1990's, we had a truly golden era of goal kickers as Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett were one of a kind and to have three of them who made it to a century on ten separate occasions in the space of 12 years will most likely never occur again.

Matthew Lloyd booted over 100 goals in the early noughties and it's since dried up because again, I get back to my original point, we simply do not have anywhere near the quality as what we did previously. Gehrig was terrific but hardly a once-in-a-generational footballer and the last 10 years has seen the goals dry up considerably.
Franklin has the potential to again kick 100 goals but he's simply not in the same league as the likes of Hudson, Coleman, Lockett and co. Blokes who elevated the game because of their sheer dominance and consistency. All three incredibly brilliant in the air for starters.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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my point exactly.
We simply have not had enough quality forwards in the modern era

Plenty of quality there, Pavlich, Hall, Franklin are better and bigger names than a number of forwards from previou eras who have bigger goal averages. It was just easier for key forwards in previous eras.

Matthew Lloyd booted over 100 goals in the early noughties and it's since dried up because again, I get back to my original point, we simply do not have anywhere near the quality as what we did previously.

What about Matthew Lloyd versus himself? He was still playing after 2001 you know :rolleyes:

These are incredibly weak arguments from you, Bobby_
 
Oct 5, 2013
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Plenty of quality there, Pavlich, Hall, Franklin are better and bigger names than a number of forwards from previou eras who have bigger goal averages.

I don't care for those three (only 3 names you can think of podge?) players and I am not arguing past forwards with greater goal averages were superior, I'm arguing past players who regularly kicked over 100 goals are superior to Franklin, Hall and Pavlich.

Pavlich hasn't even been fixed to one position on the ground anyways, in fact, he made an All Australian team one year on the basis of his versatility and it was not until a few years down the track did he really find his niche and start to dominate around the big sticks.

Stop trolling and stick to your Ablett v Franklin debate on the Bay Hodgepodge.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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I don't care for those three (only 3 names you can think of podge?) players and I am not arguing past forwards with greater goal averages were superior, I'm arguing past players who regularly kicked over 100 goals are superior to Franklin, Hall and Pavlich.

And that argument was easily dismissed when I pointed out that you'd be comparing Matthew Lloyd to himself and judging Matthew Lloyd to be better than himself.

Pavlich hasn't even been fixed to one position on the ground anyways,

Yeah that's the point, no fixed positions, no full-forward, lower goal averages.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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And that argument was easily dismissed when I pointed out that you'd be comparing Matthew Lloyd to himself and judging Matthew Lloyd to be better than himself.

all I said was Lloyd booted 100 goals a couple of times in the early noughties and it since dried up (100 goals per season).
He also came within a few goals of a century in seasons 2003 & 2004.

So your argument that the game has changed and shifted away from players booting 100 goals because of no specialist full forwards is flawed. It not only will happen again in the coming years but we will see more and more players kicking closer to a century because I personally believe we will witness better forwards enter the league than what we have seen this last 7 or so years (Hall & Pavlich included).
 
Oct 23, 2014
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all I said was Lloyd booted 100 goals a couple of times in the early noughties and it since dried up (100 goals per season).
He also came within a few goals of a century in seasons 2003 & 2004.

You said it dried up since then because there were no forwards of that calibre anymore. Well Lloyd should be the same calibre as himself, obviously. He was 23 when he kicked his last ton, so there's no putting it down to age or deterioration either.

So your argument that the game has changed and shifted away from players booting 100 goals because of no specialist full forwards is flawed.

Not on that basis it's not. And my argument has been that the game has shifted away from higher goal averages for key forwards and therefore comparing goal averages like Brownless/Ablett with Roughead/Franklin to literally assess the players is an excercise in self-delusion, which is different from what you just said.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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You said it dried up since then because there were no forwards of that calibre anymore. Well Lloyd should be the same calibre as himself, obviously. He was 23 when he kicked his last ton, so there's no putting it down to age or deterioration either.

Your digging an awfully great big hole for yourself here podge.
In 2002, Lloyd ruptured a tendon in his finger and missed 8 weeks. This is when he had to wear that glove which was subsequently tested by the Western Bulldogs on his return.

In 2006 at the age of 28, Lloyd's hamstring tendon was snapped off the bone and it had to be re-attached. This is when he obviously lost a great deal of athleticism and was noticeably a slightly different player to the one we saw previously.

Lloyd was able to slot 100 goals twice throughout his career while also booting 93 & 96 goals during injury-plagued years which dogged him the season prior, and the season after having neared those centurions in seasons 03/04. The guy was an absolute champion of the highest order. Superior to Barry Hall, Matthew Pavlich and also Lance Franklin.
 
Oct 23, 2014
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Your digging an awfully great big hole for yourself here podge.
In 2002, Lloyd ruptured a tendon in his finger and missed 8 weeks. This is when he had to wear that glove which was subsequently tested by the Western Bulldogs on his return.
.

And you're grasping at straws. Dunstall cracked his skull, and wore a mattress on his knee for the latter parts of his career and was still able to kick bags, including your precious ton. You appointed Lloyd as one of the great spearheads who would be able to produce a ton after 2001, yet when it's pointed out that he did play on past 2001 without a ton, you pull out the old injury card AND also start recognising 90 goal efforts as well. Just laughable hypocrisy from a poster who's been had every which way in this thread.
 
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The bloke in my avatar (Warren Ralph) did alright when paired with Steve Malaxos in the forward line for Claremont in 1981 & 1982

1981:
Ralph - 127.69
Malaxos - 82.41 (also missed 7 games with injury)

Claremont also got 67 goals from Brett Farmer in 1981, and 99 from the Krakouer brothers... insane scoring.

1982:
Ralph - 115.65
Malaxos - 91.64

By 1983, Malaxos had moved into a full time midfield role and instead of crumbing at the feet of the full forward, he was hitting him on the chest with drop punts.
 

CyrilDaSquirrel

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Franklin had the opportunity to maintain a truly high standard in 2009, he could not, and in the years following, he never once got close to 100 goals. Are you saying the game changed within the space of one year which is why Franklin could not boot another 100 goals in 09?

You truly are an idiot.

Franklin moved up the ground in 2009:

Year Handballs Goals
2005 73 21
2006 58 31
2007 92 73
2008 75 113
2009 129 67 <---- Gee whiz, did something change here? 54 more handballs?
2010 115 64
2011 151 82
2012 100 69
2013 115 60
2014 100 79


Lloyd was a full forward his whole career, except his last two seasons when they stopped using him as the main focal point:

Year Handballs Goals
1995 17 7
1996 34 18
1997 60 63
1998 77 70
1999 54 87
2000 68 109
2001 49 105
2002 40 47
2003 66 93
2004 49 96
2005 51 59
2006 17 13
2007 59 62
2008 83 62
2009 88 35


And although the game was different in those days, it's easy to see when Gary Ablett Snr was moved to full forward in 1993:

Year Handballs Goals
1992 61 72
1993 13 124 <--- 13 handballs? In a season?


There is little doubt that Franklin camped at full forward could kick another ton - 70s and 80s from CHF would indicate he could probably get 100 at full forward. It just doesn't make any sense to play him there, he's too good an athlete.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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You truly are an idiot.

Franklin moved up the ground in 2009:

Year Handballs Goals
2005 73 21
2006 58 31
2007 92 73
2008 75 113
2009 129 67 <---- Gee whiz, did something change here? 54 more handballs?
2010 115 64
2011 151 82
2012 100 69
2013 115 60
2014 100 79


Lloyd was a full forward his whole career, except his last two seasons when they stopped using him as the main focal point:

Year Handballs Goals
1995 17 7
1996 34 18
1997 60 63
1998 77 70
1999 54 87
2000 68 109
2001 49 105
2002 40 47
2003 66 93
2004 49 96
2005 51 59
2006 17 13
2007 59 62
2008 83 62
2009 88 35


And although the game was different in those days, it's easy to see when Gary Ablett Snr was moved to full forward in 1993:

Year Handballs Goals
1992 61 72
1993 13 124 <--- 13 handballs? In a season?


There is little doubt that Franklin camped at full forward could kick another ton - 70s and 80s from CHF would indicate he could probably get 100 at full forward. It just doesn't make any sense to play him there, he's too good an athlete.

The main reason why his handball ratio spiked the following was due to the scrutiny he received from defenders. If you actually watched him play you would have realized this instead of trying to find an inconsistency in his stat sheet as a means to back up your argument.

For example, watch the R4 clash against Port
(mms://wm9vodvip.bigpond.com/wh_ivideo/AFL/ONDEMAND/2009/ON/iVideo/Premiership/RD04/NV_Rd04_HawthornVPortAdelaide.wmv)
where he had an unusually high number of handballs, funnily enough though, he played full forward throughout the game so a high number of handballs does not always equate to a move further up the ground as you are eluding to.

No doubt he did drift up to the half forward flank a lot more minutes than what he did in 08 but the attention he received compared to the year previously was a lot more intense.
The kind of attention Lockett and co received but still excelled without needing to evolve and drag their opponent up the ground.
 

CyrilDaSquirrel

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The main reason why his handball ratio spiked the following was due to the scrutiny he received from defenders. If you actually watched him play you would have realized this instead of trying to find an inconsistency in his stat sheet as a means to back up your argument.

For example, watch the R4 clash against Port
(mms://wm9vodvip.bigpond.com/wh_ivideo/AFL/ONDEMAND/2009/ON/iVideo/Premiership/RD04/NV_Rd04_HawthornVPortAdelaide.wmv)
where he had an unusually high number of handballs, funnily enough though, he played full forward throughout the game so a high number of handballs does not always equate to a move further up the ground as you are eluding to.

No doubt he did drift up to the half forward flank a lot more minutes than what he did in 08 but the attention he received compared to the year previously was a lot more intense.

So just to be clear, to establish what I'm dealing with here, do you think that Franklin 2011 (career best form in my opinion, probably the best CHF season I've seen since Carey) was playing in the same position as Franklin 2008? You think his handballs/game went from 3.0 to 6.9, his disposals/game went from 15.3 to 18.2, his tackles from 2.0 to 3.2, his 1%ers from 0.8 to 2.0, etc. etc... and you think he was playing in the same position? That this difference was all "due to the scrutiny he received from defenders"?

So I suppose in 1994, you also thought that Simon Minton-Connell's 68 goals@9 disposals/gm was better than Carey's 63 goals@18.5 disposals a game? Exactly when was the last time a CHF kicked a ton anyway? Even Carey never managed it. It just doesn't happen.

The kind of attention Lockett and co received but still excelled without needing to evolve and drag their opponent up the ground.

Why are you comparing him to Lockett??

Carey:

Handballs 4.68/gm
Disposals 16.50/gm

Franklin:

Handballs 4.94/gm
Disposals 15.33/gm

Lockett:

Handballs 1.78/gm
Disposals 10.20/gm

One of these things is not like the other. One of them is a FULL FORWARD, something near extinct in the modern game. Franklin just happened to have one good season as a proper full forward before we moved him up the ground.
 
Oct 5, 2013
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So just to be clear, to establish what I'm dealing with here, do you think that Franklin 2011 (career best form in my opinion, probably the best CHF season I've seen since Carey) was playing in the same position as Franklin 2008?

No. I do not believe he was playing in the same position exclusively by 2011. If you had read my entire post, you would have read this. I was concentrating on the season following his century.
As for the other stuff about Minton-Connell . . . lol, whatever floats your boat mate.

Do disagree about Franklin matching Carey though. Carey was a contested marking beast, completely different players all together. He swung into defence if need be.
Franklin's closer to a player like Matthew Richardson but a class below Wayne Carey. Even with the 18 and 3½ of 2011.
 

CyrilDaSquirrel

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No. I do not believe he was playing in the same position exclusively by 2011. If you had read my entire post, you would have read this. I was concentrating on the season following his century.
As for the other stuff about Minton-Connell . . . lol, whatever floats your boat mate.

Do disagree about Franklin matching Carey though. Carey was a contested marking beast, completely different players all together. He swung into defence if need be.
Franklin's closer to a player like Matthew Richardson but a class below Wayne Carey. Even with the 18 and 3½ of 2011.

So ok, we're getting somewhere. I also agree Carey > Franklin, I'm not sure where I said otherwise. I was just pointing out the obvious reality that Franklin isn't a full forward, and his role since 2008 is much closer to Carey than it is to Lockett. Which leads us back to what you wrote again:

he could not, and in the years following, he never once got close to 100 goals.

We'll try one more time. If you're admitting that he is a centre half forward, with stats that look broadly like Carey's, why the **** are you suggesting that him failing to get close to 100 goals is a problem? Again, which centre half forwards with 15-18 possessions a game have ever kicked 100 goals?
 

CyrilDaSquirrel

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In fact Bobby, now that I think about it, there hasn't been a single player in the history of the game who has kicked a ton while playing upfield and being so involved in general play that they are making 100+ handballs in a season. Not a single one. The closest anyone has ever come is Matthews in '77 with 91 goals.

The closest anyone has come:

Matthews 1977 - (144 handballs, 91 goals) - Rover/small forward
Quinlan 1983 - (62 handballs, 116 goals) - Full forward
Dunstall 1996 - (62 handballs, 102 goals) - Full forward

Carey 1996 - (154 handballs, 82 goals) - CHF
Lloyd 2000 - (68 handballs, 109 goals) - Full forward
Franklin 2008 - (79 handballs, 113 goals) - Full forward

Franklin 2011 - (151 handballs, 82 goals) - CHF
Ablett Snr - never even close!
Tony Lockett - never even close!

Your knock on Franklin is that he needs to achieve the impossible! No one has ever achieved the feat that you demand from him. I too would love to see Franklin kicking tons but it just won't happen while he is roaming upfield.

The four tons listed above are anomalies, every other ton is kicked by a player who is camped in the forward 50 and rarely handpasses (i.e. every time they get the ball they are in range).
 
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CyrilDaSquirrel

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Lloyd also kicked 105 in 2001 CyrilDaSquirrel

Yeah I know, that's not what the list is. It is a list showing how impossible it is for a player to both get a lot of handballs (i.e. be involved in general link-up play) and also kick a ton. Lloyd's 2000 is notable because it is one of only four tons I can find where the player also hand-balled it more than 60 times. You look at the tons kicked by Ablett/Lockett/Modra etc. they all involve only 20 - 50 handballs. So expecting Franklin to kick tons when he is averaging 120+ handballs a year since 2009 is just daft. He's a CHF, he won't kick tons.
 
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