Discussion Origins of Footy on Yahoo!7

[SpareTowel]

The origins of footy will be covered in an upcoming episode of 7's Australia: The Story of Us series:

"Gold brings new wealth to the Australian colonies but not everyone’s prepared to dig for their share. A heroic race across the continent enables the construction of the Overland Telegraph. High wages and time off encourage the invention of our unique football code. Dame Nellie Melba faces a daunting audition for the chance to become the most famous Australian in the world. When our longest boom ends in bitter crash, Australia goes to the brink of civil war over who will share in the wealth of the continent."

It's on at 8:00pm, Sun 1st March, and will be available for streaming here. I looked up the cast and they've done an impeccable job selecting actors to portray Tom Wills and Henry Harrison ...

I also found this preview shot ...

 

[Gibbsy]

Geeeeeeez, look at the summary on the Plus7 website

"As we journey through 1862-1890, gold brings new wealth to Australian colonies, Bush Ranger Frank Gardener attempts Australia's biggest heist, AFL is born and Australia goes to the brink of a civil war."

 

[Gibbsy]

Haha I'm watching right now and it's pretty cringey. There are cutaway interviews from Guy Sebastian (wtf?!) and Greg Norman (direct quote – "I played AFL...") as well as Adam Goodes waxing lyrical about how romantic it is that footy may have been derived from marn grook.

 

[Gibbsy]

Oh and apparently after a game between "Melbourne" and the "British Soldiers" which was played in 1869 and won 1-0 to Melbourne thanks to a goal from Henry Harrison (is this true?), the "VFL" began "a decade later"..... wow.

If you have an interest in accuracy at all then I suggest you skip over this

 

[SpareTowel]

There are cutaway interviews from Guy Sebastian (wtf?!)

Personal highlight.

The show does seem to put emphasis on strange things. Why the 1869 match? There were many "Australians vs The World" matches in those days (native born vs foreigners), but I don't think they were treated as milestones of the game.

Also I thought it was gold how the game we know today was apparently readymade at the 1859 meeting. Behind posts, oval field, handballing, etc

 

[Gibbsy]

Personal highlight.

The show does seem to put emphasis on strange things. Why the 1869 match? There were many "Australians vs The World" matches in those days (native born vs foreigners), but I don't think they were treated as milestones of the game.

Also I thought it was gold how the game we know today was apparently readymade at the 1859 meeting. Behind posts, oval field, handballing, etc

Yeah, I especially got a good laugh out of Wills performing the clenched fist 'handball' motion to his chums at the meeting – when the ball was still being thrown and flicked at leisure in those days!

 

[SpareTowel]

Wills performing the clenched fist 'handball' motion to his chums at the meeting

That was directly after the narrator said he was inspired by Marngrook, haha. Still, at least Wills and early football is getting some attention. The game really needs an in depth doco, something like Ken Burns' Baseball.

 

[Mero]

That was directly after the narrator said he was inspired by Marngrook, haha. Still, at least Wills and early football is getting some attention. The game really needs an in depth doco, something like Ken Burns' Baseball.

This is why I think I would hate it.
Making stuff up because it suits a narrative really grates at me.
Why not have the courage to say "we don't really know if it came from this, that or the other"?

 

[the croucher]

I just bought part 2 of the publication which accompanies the series.
In it there is a photo of a football player preparing to take a place kick, [not same image but quite like this one]:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/128895399

The Story Of Us magazine has the photo captioned as:
"A player demonstrates the squatting position." !!!

 

[SpareTowel]

I just bought part 2 of the publication which accompanies the series.
In it there is a photo of a football player preparing to take a place kick, [not same image but quite like this one]:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/128895399

The Story Of Us magazine has the photo captioned as:
"A player demonstrates the squatting position." !!!

You have to wonder how this stuff gets published. Here's something I found in a very recent book, advertised prominently in Big W ...

 

[royals1922]

History just doesn't suit the narrative so history is wrong. The narrative is that marngrook was the basis of footy. Facts, history, goes the way of history in Orwells 1984

 

[fabulousphil]

History just doesn't suit the narrative so history is wrong. The narrative is that marngrook was the basis of footy. Facts, history, goes the way of history in Orwells 1984

IMO Marngrook or various Aboriginal games that Tom Wills played in his childhood were important, to discount it, is to discount everyone's childhood as having no bearing on their later life.

You just don't learn co-ordination at 14, when you go away to Boarding school, if you have good ball skills, hand to eye co-ord etc you can spot it when a kid is very young, 5, 6, 7, sometimes even earlier.

 

[the croucher]

IMO Marngrook or various Aboriginal games that Tom Wills played in his childhood were important, to discount it, is to discount everyone's childhood as having no bearing on their later life.

You just don't learn co-ordination at 14, when you go away to Boarding school, if you have good ball skills, hand to eye co-ord etc you can spot it when a kid is very young, 5, 6, 7, sometimes even earlier.

I wonder how many of you know of the writings of Roy Hay - one of the most balanced commentators on football history in my opinion. For example, a journal article of just under 20 pages here might pay reading:
http://dro.deakin.edu.au/eserv/DU:30029889/hay-ataleoftwo-2010.pdf

and a shorter piece here too:

http://sesasport.com/?p=98

 

[Experimental]

Geeeeeeez, look at the summary on the Plus7 website

"As we journey through 1862-1890, gold brings new wealth to Australian colonies, Bush Ranger Frank Gardener attempts Australia's biggest heist, AFL is born and Australia goes to the brink of a civil war."

You know as well as everyone that AFL is synonymous with Aussie rules. You'll find that many schools play 'NRL', just as many schools play 'AFL'. People still tend to say AFL instead of Aussie rules.

 

[SJ]

You know as well as everyone that AFL is synonymous with Aussie rules. You'll find that many schools play 'NRL', just as many schools play 'AFL'. People still tend to say AFL instead of Aussie rules.

Is it?!

It can't have been for very long - the term "AFL" didn't exist 25 years ago, and the sport is 156 years old.

Perhaps it is synonymous only for the ill-educated - in the same way that 'defiantly' is synonymous with 'definitely'.

 

[SJ]

You have to wonder how this stuff gets published. Here's something I found in a very recent book, advertised prominently in Big W ...

Which book is this?!

 

[Experimental]

Is it?!

It can't have been for very long - the term "AFL" didn't exist 25 years ago, and the sport is 156 years old.

Perhaps it is synonymous only for the ill-educated - in the same way that 'defiantly' is synonymous with 'definitely'.

It pisses me off too, but people 'play' AFL9s, they play AFL Auskick, and plenty of people say they like to play AFL or that AFL is their favourite sport. It bugs me no end, but it's stupid to pretend that it's not prevalent (or even the norm).

The biggest issue is that the corporation of the AFL runs the competition called AFL, where the highest level of Australian Rules football is played. So of course people are going to call the sport AFL, but like you said, it doesn't make it correct.

 

[35Daicos]

Which book is this?!

Fortunately, it's not an actual football book:-

Australia's Best Unknown Stories
and tales you thought you knew...

Jim Haynes

http://www.allenandunwin.com/default.aspx?page=94&book=9781760111786 (Page 13 on Google Preview)

 

[SJ]

Fortunately, it's not an actual football book:-

Australia's Best Unknown Stories
and tales you thought you knew...

Jim Haynes

http://www.allenandunwin.com/default.aspx?page=94&book=9781760111786 (Page 13 on Google Preview)

"Tales you thought you knew" seems the key point.

 

[Mero]

IMO Marngrook or various Aboriginal games that Tom Wills played in his childhood were important, to discount it, is to discount everyone's childhood as having no bearing on their later life.

You just don't learn co-ordination at 14, when you go away to Boarding school, if you have good ball skills, hand to eye co-ord etc you can spot it when a kid is very young, 5, 6, 7, sometimes even earlier.

You're assuming Tim Wills had some exposure to MarnGrook.
There is NO evidence that I've ever seen that points to him mentioning it, referencing it, or adopting one skill from it as it was played in his childhood.
From what I've read, no such evidence exists. Neither is there any evidence of the game being played anywhere near where Tom Wills lived.
Marn Grook was definitely played around Port Fairy and throughout the Melbourne area, there is no evidence that the game was played north of the Grampians or by the Djabwurrung people and the claim that Wills observed and possibly played the game is improbable.

Maybe he had good ball skills and hand-eye co-ordination for another reason.

 

[SpareTowel]

You're assuming Tim Wills had some exposure to MarnGrook.
There is NO evidence that I've ever seen that points to him mentioning it, referencing it, or adopting one skill from it as it was played in his childhood.
From what I've read, no such evidence exists. Neither is there any evidence of the game being played anywhere near where Tom Wills lived.
Marn Grook was definitely played around Port Fairy and throughout the Melbourne area, there is no evidence that the game was played north of the Grampians or by the Djabwurrung people and the claim that Wills observed and possibly played the game is improbable.

Maybe he had good ball skills and hand-eye co-ordination for another reason.

I think it was James Dawson who recorded the Djabwurrung word for football as "Min'gorm". As some Marngrook advocates have pointed out, if the Djabwurrung didn't play football, then why did they have a word for it? That's about as far as any evidence for it goes

 

[TheOldeBadger]

I just bought part 2 of the publication which accompanies the series.
In it there is a photo of a football player preparing to take a place kick, [not same image but quite like this one]:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/128895399

The Story Of Us magazine has the photo captioned as:
"A player demonstrates the squatting position." !!!

As a bit of a sideline, I found the newspaper page that photo is on quite interesting. Detailed information from each club's training sessions - in 1929!

 

[fabulousphil]

As a bit of a sideline, I found the newspaper page that photo is on quite interesting. Detailed information from each club's training sessions - in 1929!

I would have thought place kicks were rare even as long ago as 1929

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I just bought part 2 of the publication which accompanies the series.
In it there is a photo of a football player preparing to take a place kick, [not same image but quite like this one]:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/128895399

The Story Of Us magazine has the photo captioned as:
"A player demonstrates the squatting position." !!!

Seriously, you just have to shake your head sometimes. This is what happens when some inner-Sydney creative types are let loose... historical accuracy be damned, just make it colourful and entertaining.

 

[SJ]

I just bought part 2 of the publication which accompanies the series.
In it there is a photo of a football player preparing to take a place kick, [not same image but quite like this one]:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/128895399

The Story Of Us magazine has the photo captioned as:
"A player demonstrates the squatting position." !!!

Can you upload a photo of the magazine caption?