Strategy Richmond Versus "Well coached sides"

[Cotcho]

(Not a Dimma whacking thread)

I was listening to Ben Dixon the other day and he was talking about how Hawthorn do 3 or 4 strategic drills to break down the coming opposition each week. He also mentioned that this is something Mick Malthouse doesn't do.

This got me thinking.

I assume we would do the same given that Dimma got schooled with Al Clarkson and as mentioned in the commentary last night, we set up our zones to allow Brisbane to roll the dice through the middle. Which is something they don't like to do and it certainly paid off given that we won comfortably with more or less the same amount of contested ball.

My question is:

Do we struggle against well coached opposition who deliberately act to break us down?

This is my ranking of how clubs go at putting in deliberate stopping opposition tactics.

Best: Essendon, Hawthorn and Sydney.
Good but come with more or less their own game unchanged: Port Adelaide, Adelaide and Fremantle.
Simply play their own game: Gold Coast, North Melbourne, Geelong, Carlton, Collingwood, WC
Young teams who appear to break down the opposition sorta: Bulldogs, Melbourne, St Kilda
Young teams who don't seem to do much on the opposition: GWS, Brisbane

Now looking at the above I wouldn't think there is too much of a trend there. We seem to just go well against some teams but badly against others. Is it anything to do with this or we simply struggle against teams that bring great intent??

So far this season:

1. Carlton (Badly coached & no pressure) WIN!
2. Dogs (Well coached & pressure) LOSS!
3. Lions (Badly coached & no pressure) WIN!
4. Dees (Well coached & ............) ????

I think this week will be very interesting given the above.

Anyway. Anyone got thoughts on the above? Where we rate in being able to break down the opposition? How we rate against being able to withstand the opposition tactics? etc

 

[tunksy]

If melbourne play like did vs the crows itll be a tight tussle. Honestly a game we should win. We need to kick straight. 2 or 3 goal game not a percentage booster. Will be a bit slow coming back from brisbane too.

 

[WATiger86]

I think we fit in the simply play our own game category. I think Dimma believes our game should hold up against any opposition tactics. Problem is it doesn't!

 

[tunksy]

I think we fit in the simply play our own game category. I think Dimma believes our game should hold up against any opposition tactics. Problem is it doesn't!

If we are in form its shown it can. If we are off our game we can look darn awful. Growing pains i suppose. Consistency is key.

 

[Cotcho]

I think we fit in the simply play our own game category. I think Dimma believes our game should hold up against any opposition tactics. Problem is it doesn't!

Hmmmmm interesting. Despite us following the "Hawthorn way"?

 

[Spluff]

I think we fit in the simply play our own game category. I think Dimma believes our game should hold up against any opposition tactics. Problem is it doesn't!

Simply not true. We're one of the best at doing our homework before the game. It's when the opposition changes it up that things start going downhill. I can think of a number of occasions that we have come out with a gameplan that just completely stifles the opposition gameplan.

 

[WATiger86]

Simply not true. We're one of the best at doing our homework before the game. It's when the opposition changes it up that things start going downhill. I can think of a number of occasions that we have come out with a gameplan that just completely stifles the opposition gameplan.

You may be right, but how many times does the old "we just couldn't get our game up and going" get trotted out after a loss? To me that means we fundamentally don't stray too much from our plan A and back the players in to eventually get it working against whatever system the opposition is employing.

 

[Bojangles17]

We ve beaten haw, swans, freo PA , under dimma , does that answer your question

 

[Tigerland]

If melbourne play like did vs the crows itll be a tight tussle. Honestly a game we should win. We need to kick straight. 2 or 3 goal game not a percentage booster. Will be a bit slow coming back from brisbane too.[/QUOTE]

Melbourne played in the wet in Adelaide. Melb also travelled to Canberra the week before. Travel can't be an excuse for us.

I agree with the op to an extent but I think it's as simple as - a lot of our players don't thrive under pressure. Good teams bring it. Finals brings it.

Melbourne haven't played a night game this season and I'm betting they haven't had the Friday night pressure for quite a while. A lot of their players would never have experienced it.

 

[theflea]

I think Dicko is full of shite. MM always broke down the oppo and stopped what they did well. Just because a team loses, doesn't mean the tactics weren't wrong, as you still have to implement it on the day. As bucks said in an interview on SEN all clubs know what clubs do, its another thing to get it to happen on gameday.

 

[tropicaltiger]

I think Dicko is full of shite. MM always broke down the oppo and stopped what they did well. Just because a team loses, doesn't mean the tactics weren't wrong, as you still have to implement it on the day. As bucks said in an interview on SEN all clubs know what clubs do, its another thing to get it to happen on gameday.

with most well coached teams, its not so much about the coach its about the players,

look at hawthorn, hodge, burgoyne, mitchell, lewis, lake, roughie, gibson, birchall dont need clarkson holding their hands, they know what to do when the occasion arises, they are programmed to know what to do and make adjustments and have the confidence and experience to do so.

NOW look at their ages and look how many games these guys have played together,

we are still a few years away in perfecting this area but we still have a very good team and are coached as well as anyone when things go to plan. reckon the gap is closing fast too

 

[Ralll]

We struggle against well coached sides because...they're well coached and play a style that suits them.
The tweaks that counter the opp are minimal imo, its a balancing act not changing too much to confuse their own players, but just enough to throw a spanner in the opp's plans, the better coaches get this balance right.

I still think our main problem is getting our own game consistent week to week, last round vs the dogs proved this yet again, both at the selection table and structures moving the ball forward.

 

[Boston tiger]

If your players are at a high level and have the skills to play as a team then the coach has the luxury of putting different things in place to stuff the opposition. Most clubs are still battling to get their own mojos going toworry about different drills etc that Hawthorn can afford to do.

You can be a one hit wonder like Wallace and pull off a surprise win every now again.

 

[SpudsLoveChild]

I think Dicko is full of shite. MM always broke down the oppo and stopped what they did well. Just because a team loses, doesn't mean the tactics weren't wrong, as you still have to implement it on the day. As bucks said in an interview on SEN all clubs know what clubs do, its another thing to get it to happen on gameday.

 

[partycorolla]

Melbourne played in the wet in Adelaide. Melb also travelled to Canberra the week before. Travel can't be an excuse for us.

I agree with the op to an extent but I think it's as simple as - a lot of our players don't thrive under pressure. Good teams bring it. Finals brings it.

Melbourne haven't played a night game this season and I'm betting they haven't had the Friday night pressure for quite a while. A lot of their players would never have experienced it.

I actually think we are a better team at night than we are during the day.... not sure if it's the atmosphere and I have no idea if the stats support it over the last 2-3 seasons or not but I just feel we play better with a yellow ball.... kicks are longer and more penetrating, not as many floaters as in day games.... Again just a feeling....

 

[Tigerbob]

Pressure.

If you pressure us we crumble. All teams know this.

Our players turn to mush and Dimma doesn't have a plan b.

 

[partycorolla]

Pressure.

If you pressure us we crumble. All teams know this.

Our players turn to mush and Dimma doesn't have a plan b.

Not always though..... We have beaten great teams when they have applied pressure over the last few years. It's actually the expectation when we are meant to win and 'lesser' sides pressure us at times when we seem to struggle. Might be Hardwick's biggest problem, letting some of the players get ahead of themselves. It's the same problem that stops us from really putting sides away consistently. We get a few goals up and then mentally put the 'cue in the rack'. Our danger time isn't in tight games, it's in games where we skip out to a 30-38 point lead. Great teams put on even more pressure at that point and kill off the game, we let the opposition in too often. It's a mental weakness.... Those 2 things would be of great concern for DH.... imo

 

[sregit]

I actually think we are a better team at night than we are during the day.... not sure if it's the atmosphere and I have no idea if the stats support it over the last 2-3 seasons or not but I just feel we play better with a yellow ball.... kicks are longer and more penetrating, not as many floaters as in day games.... Again just a feeling....

I don't have the stats on night v day games either, however, I also have thought we perform better at night than during the day games. I can't back it up but I think Richmond have a distinct lack of pace that is not as exposed at night and also believe we kick longer and run the ball less. Our long game stands up and is nowhere near as complicated. I think the simple game we go to at night is better suited to our limited talent.
Our list is not capable of playing Hawthorns style. We don't have the stable calm players required to execute.

 

[partycorolla]

I don't have the stats on night v day games either, however, I also have thought we perform better at night than during the day games. I can't back it up but I think Richmond have a distinct lack of pace that is not as exposed at night and also believe we kick longer and run the ball less. Our long game stands up and is nowhere near as complicated. I think the simple game we go to at night is better suited to our limited talent.
Our list is not capable of playing Hawthorns style. We don't have the stable calm players required to execute.

I'd love someone to do the leg work for us and find the stats!!! We don't always go long but we do go more direct, even with short kicks through the middle but playing on is the key. Quick ball movement makes us look good but we rarely do it during the day games (it seems).

 

[Livonski]

Sounds like he has a plan B? For night time only. Maybe if he ran Plan B during the day?

 

[theflea]

with most well coached teams, its not so much about the coach its about the players,

look at hawthorn, hodge, burgoyne, mitchell, lewis, lake, roughie, gibson, birchall dont need clarkson holding their hands, they know what to do when the occasion arises, they are programmed to know what to do and make adjustments and have the confidence and experience to do so.

NOW look at their ages and look how many games these guys have played together,

we are still a few years away in perfecting this area but we still have a very good team and are coached as well as anyone when things go to plan. reckon the gap is closing fast too

Its why I still think the whole 'matchday' coaching idea is out dated. Most 'good' coaching is done during the week.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Immense pressure kills us, as does a bit of "giving us enough rope" to over possess and cough it up.
Some teams give it back but good teams don't .
It's all very well suggesting you can have an alternative plan but there isn't enough players on our list who can efficiently use the ball .

 

[RunningBounce]

This is my ranking of how clubs go at putting in deliberate stopping opposition tactics.

Best: Essendon, Hawthorn and Sydney.
Good but come with more or less their own game unchanged: Port Adelaide, Adelaide and Fremantle.
Simply play their own game: Gold Coast, North Melbourne, Geelong, Carlton, Collingwood, WC
Young teams who appear to break down the opposition sorta: Bulldogs, Melbourne, St Kilda
Young teams who don't seem to do much on the opposition: GWS, Brisbane

Of recent times, I'd reckon we punch above our weight against Essendon, Hawthorn and Sydney.

GC North, Geelong, Carlton and the Pies have done pretty well against us.

Maybe history is saying we do better against the teams who put in deliberate stopping tactics?

I'm not so sure which team takes what coaching approach to preparing for specific opposition, but I reckon we struggle against numbers behind the ball.

 

[Stylo]

The no plan B line always gives me a chuckle. It's not that bloody simple

 

[theflea]

The no plan B line always gives me a chuckle. It's not that bloody simple

You cant implement your plan A if you don't win the ball, you cant implement plan B for the same reasons. Ultimately we don't apply enough pressure to do this, which is why I want more really good inside mids.