Ukraine on verge of civil war?

[The_Reaper]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeucom/115/115.pdf

Should be required reading

 

[Zidane98]

Rebels executed ukranian soldiers according to amnesty international:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/09/us-ukraine-crisis-shooting-idUSKBN0N024L20150409

 

[awaremind]

Can I just say that report relied on the Kiev post and also a soldiers testimony, I don't doubt dpr and lpr fighers have executed kiev soldiers but pinning it on motorola is not nessecarily kosher. He is a hero figure to the rebels and Kiev wants him gone soo badly. They have reported his death a dozen times, along with the leaders and Moscovoi, he and Givi perhaps Givi even more so are the most important figures to "Novorossia".
'

 

[Dagger5]

Hardly seen any news from the media about the US training Ukrainian soldiers which include members of the Azov Battalion.

 

[Zidane98]

Hardly seen any news from the media about the US training Ukrainian soldiers which include members of the Azov Battalion.

Have you read the budapest agreement? The US have an obligation to defend Ukraine from aggressors. Russia signed it too and that's why Ukraine disarmed itself in the mid 90's. Unlike Russia the US have been very transparent in saying what role (if any) they are playing in fulfilling their obligations to defend Ukraine. They have actually intervened hardly at all in contrast to the Russians who blatantly send troops and advanced weaponry over the border in an attempt to maintain a constant "frozen" war which undermines Ukraine's economy. They don't give one s**t about the people of East Ukraine.

 

[CountryRace]

Oh boy

 

[awaremind]

Have you read the budapest agreement? The US have an obligation to defend Ukraine from aggressors. Russia signed it too and that's why Ukraine disarmed itself in the mid 90's. Unlike Russia the US have been very transparent in saying what role (if any) they are playing in fulfilling their obligations to defend Ukraine. They have actually intervened hardly at all in contrast to the Russians who blatantly send troops and advanced weaponry over the border in an attempt to maintain a constant "frozen" war which undermines Ukraine's economy. They don't give one s**t about the people of East Ukraine.

Or you could say that russia has been extremely restrained, by not directly intervening in the country at the time of illegal regime change that was instigated by the eu and encouraged and sponsored by the US.
Western countries always do exactly what they say they are doing, go back to sleep children.

 

[Zidane98]

Or you could say that russia has been extremely restrained, by not directly intervening in the country at the time of illegal regime change that was instigated by the eu and encouraged and sponsored by the US.
Western countries always do exactly what they say they are doing, go back to sleep children.

PMSL. Russia have clearly armed the rebels and have been backing their military aggression against Ukraine for nearly a year now. Only a fool would argue they are not in breach of the Budapest agreement.

Stop posting rubbish about an "illegal" regime change. It was voted on twice by the people of Ukraine and is completely legal. You need to accept that Ukranians do not want to live under Russian oppression.

 

[awaremind]

You need to accept there are at least two sides to the story.

 

[Zidane98]

You need to accept there are at least two sides to the story.

There is but only one side is breaking the Budapest agreement. Russia ate taking advantage of Ukraine disarming itself and relying on them for security. That is indefensible.

 

[Slax]

PMSL. Russia have clearly armed the rebels and have been backing their military aggression against Ukraine for nearly a year now. Only a fool would argue they are not in breach of the Budapest agreement.

Stop posting rubbish about an "illegal" regime change. It was voted on twice by the people of Ukraine and is completely legal. You need to accept that Ukranians do not want to live under Russian oppression.

The question is why did the West so quickly recognise an illegal government following the coup that started the whole fight. A democratically elected government was outed from office and a pro EU government installed without an election and was recognised overnight. Yet when Crimea held a referendum on succession from Ukraine the West refused to accept it.

The EU and USA have had double standards over the Ukraine from the beginning and have been looking after their own self interest above all else. Russia has also acted to protect her self interests as well. But to try and claim one side has behaved illegally compared to the other is completely hypocritical, both have been a disgrace. The crazy thing is only one of the powers behind them pulling the strings actually wants a proper peace and it isn't the USA, because that doesn't suit its desire of applying economic pressure on Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

What are people smoking? Russia has attacked a nation that it agreed to defend when it disarmed itself 20 years ago. How anyone can condone that beggars belief no matter who they support or what their views are.

 

[awaremind]

For me I see the EU as the secondary target of the USA 's foriegn policy. It's the old plan to keep Germany down and Russia out. The EU is being surrounded by conflict zones formented by the USA ; think Syria/Iraq to the south East , Libya to the South and now Ukraine to the East. It is putting a wedge between Russia and EU and drawing Russia and China together, (China knows the USA views it as a rival and therefore an enemy). We are at a dangerous time, as the USA is certainly not far from falling behind Russia and China militarily even if it is still just ahead now.

 

[awaremind]

What are people smoking? Russia has attacked a nation that it agreed to defend when it disarmed itself 20 years ago. How anyone can condone that beggars belief no matter who they support or what their views are.

If Russia attacked them Kiev would be level or 6 Billion would be dead.

 

[awaremind]

Kiev has been the aggressor in the East /West war, and we have supported them, Russia obviously views themselves as justified and Putin has massive support in Russia despite the economy and the mh 17 disaster... his narrative is no less believeable than the wests- which is more of an indictment of the wests narrative than praise for Putins.

 

[Zidane98]

If Russia attacked them Kiev would be level or 6 Billion would be dead.

Rubbish.

 

[Zidane98]

Putin has massive support? We know what happens to those who stand up against him.

Might as well say Kim Jong is "justified " because he has "support" in North Korea.

 

[awaremind]

But we don't know what happens at a far greater rate to members of Ukraines former ruling party do we because the news papers tend to avoid that on the whole.

 

[CountryRace]

Rubbish.

How do you see it playing out

 

[Zidane98]

How do you see it playing out

There's no chance of nukes being used. I do see Russia eventually pulling out of East Ukraine when they realise it is killing their economy and they're better off negotiating like normal countries do.

 

[awaremind]

I see an actual Russian Invasion playing out somewhat like the first Iraq war, fighter jets annihilating poor bastards fleeing back to the capital followed by destruction. Unless of course Nato got involved bringing on ww3.
What we really have is Russian support for a local insurgency.

 

[Zidane98]

No. You have a Russian backed (unofficially ) war against Ukraine forces. The same country that disarmed itself on the understanding Russia would respect Ukraine's territory and would not conduct military operations in Ukraine (other than the agreed lease on the crimean naval base).

 

[awaremind]

No. You have a Russian backed (unofficially ) war against Ukraine forces. The same country that disarmed itself on the understanding Russia would respect Ukraine's territory and would not conduct military operations in Ukraine (other than the agreed lease on the crimean naval base).

Come the whole maidan thing is a joke, its destroyed the nation. It wasn't democracy and now the former Ukraine no longer exists in its previous form. They are doing thier best to commit genocide and their are armed groups of pro war "volunteers"- third parties attempting to provoke clashes to ruin the fragile ceasefire as reported by the OSCE.

 

[Zidane98]

Come the whole maidan thing is a joke, its destroyed the nation. It wasn't democracy and now the former Ukraine no longer exists in its previous form. They are doing thier best to commit genocide and their are armed groups of pro war "volunteers"- third parties attempting to provoke clashes to ruin the fragile ceasefire as reported by the OSCE.

What absolute rubbish. That's classic Russian propaganda justifying their war on Ukraine. Not a single Ukranian believes that rubbish whatsover.

A quick glance at the OCSE reports sees that the majority of reported cease fire violations are attacks on government held positions.

 

[awaremind]

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html
Funny how they installed their insiders.

And what you said about the Osce reports isn't true, mainly it seems like the level of aggression is pretty similar.