Preview R5: St Kilda v Essendon (game day thread now open)

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Yes of course:thumbsu:
I just think that at rnd 4 of a season that we were expecting to be crap & we have also had quite a few injuries and our reserve side has only just started playing so havnt really had a chance to prove form for selection yet.
Is a bit early to judge selection or form of a still relatively new coaching panel.
Dont get me wrong, if at the halfway mark of the season if we seem stagnate as a team regarding a gameplan. Then ill be complaining as well.
I just think rnd 4 is too early .
Thats just my opinion anyway.
Let me say, I have no problem at all if we're crap at the moment, given this stage in our rebuild. But there are things we can't control, and things we most certainly can control. Demanding that a child be responsible for full-forward in the only international game in the AFL calendar is something we can control. Not playing a designated tagger as a tagger in a game where said tagger is desperately needed (after they replaced an injured tagger, no less) is something we can control. Not selecting any of the players largely responsible for a VFL win against Essendon after an AFL drubbing by Collingwood is something we can control.

The fact that we are crap at the moment, does not justify making unnecessarily crap decisions.
 
Let me say, I have no problem at all if we're crap at the moment, given this stage in our rebuild. But there are things we can't control, and things we most certainly can control. Demanding that a child be responsible for full-forward in the only international game in the AFL calendar is something we can control. Not playing a designated tagger as a tagger in a game where said tagger is desperately needed (after they replaced an injured tagger, no less) is something we can control. Not selecting any of the players largely responsible for a VFL win against Essendon after an AFL drubbing by Collingwood is something we can control.

The fact that we are crap at the moment, does not justify making unnecessarily crap decisions.

i agree with all of the above

i still cant believe we used newnes as a tagger when curren was in the side. its quite possibly the worst coaching match up from our club that i can remember
 
Let me say, I have no problem at all if we're crap at the moment, given this stage in our rebuild. But there are things we can't control, and things we most certainly can control. Demanding that a child be responsible for full-forward in the only international game in the AFL calendar is something we can control. Not playing a designated tagger as a tagger in a game where said tagger is desperately needed (after they replaced an injured tagger, no less) is something we can control. Not selecting any of the players largely responsible for a VFL win against Essendon after an AFL drubbing by Collingwood is something we can control.

The fact that we are crap at the moment, does not justify making unnecessarily crap decisions.
Thats your opinion mate , and its a good one as usual :thumbsu:
Mine just happens to be a little different . I guess im a little bit more relaxed about this season. If we hadve lost our first four games of this yr by over 100 pts i still wouldnt be concerned.
I'll be more concerned that if once we get the team settled a bit & the Saints guys at Sandy have 6 or 7 games under their belt as well. Then if players are still making the same mistakes each week and Richo doesnt seem to be making pro active moves by then , ill be pretty bloody frustrated as well:thumbsu::thumbsu:
 
Paddy had been the best performing key forward in the VFL prior to Roo getting injured. Nobody else put their hand up like he did, if we reward someone else who hasn't been performing we're basically saying "just hang around until there's an injury". The other options should almost be embarrassed that an 19 year old is outperforming them.
 

SK_MD_#7

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Anyone think whatever player it was that gave Murphy a little jab in the guts will get sighted by the MRP?

Murphy dropped like a bag of s**t. Think Newnes was the one who did it
 
Anyone think whatever player it was that gave Murphy a little jab in the guts will get sighted by the MRP?

Murphy dropped like a bag of s**t. Think Newnes was the one who did it

if he gets rubbed out, that move of making him tagger goes from being a disaster to an absolute cluster* of epic proportions
 
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Demanding that a child be responsible for full-forward in the only international game in the AFL calendar is something we can control.
Who were the other options putting their hands up for FF? White, who is barely getting a touch in the VFL? I think they'll drop Paddy now, but I also think it would have been harsh to have not given him the opportunity to redeem himself after his debut game, so I wasn't surprised that we played him on the weekend.
Not playing a designated tagger as a tagger in a game where said tagger is desperately needed (after they replaced an injured tagger, no less) is something we can control.
We could indeed have played someone like Curren in a tagging role, but it's incredibly clear that the club wanted Newnes to have a go at it, so that he could learn a bit about playing in the guts at AFL level, from someone that has come top 10 in a couple of Brownlow medals. I dare say he would have learned a hell of a lot from someone that got 24 contested possessions and a bunch of clearances for the game. These sort of moves are not being made to necessarily give us the best chance to win that particular game, but to give us a better chance to win games in 2+ years time, when it looks likely that Curren will unfortunately for him probably not be on our list. If it costs us a win now, so be it, especially if that happens to get us a certain concession at the end of the year.
Not selecting any of the players largely responsible for a VFL win against Essendon after an AFL drubbing by Collingwood is something we can control.
To be fair, I wouldn't have made many changes after the Collingwood loss either, as there just weren't any obvious candidates who "deserved" to be dropped, after repeated poor performances.

The fact that we are crap at the moment, does not justify making unnecessarily crap decisions.
It's very, very clear that we are playing the long game here and are not as concerned about whether we win these current games as we would usually be and the sooner everyone understands and accepts that the sooner they'll be less angry and frustrated.

I'm pretty sure that if we weren't in rebuild mode, with more of an eye to the future than the present, didn't have the potential to get a PP at the end of the year and were just desperate to win every game, that we would have moved Curren onto Murphy, would have moved Savage away from the role he was struggling in and so-on, but it's pretty clear that that's not the case.

We just about need to treat this year as a "practice year", like watching us playing NAB Cup/Challenge, where it's not so much about the wins, but more about experimenting, learning, developing and so-on and where any wins are a bonus.
 
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I hope we make at least 3 changes.

P.S. plugger is giving me the shits over at SS. Shame I don't like the forum graphical layout over here otherwise I'd post more
o_Oo_O LOL
Yeah, I refuse to post at SS because of the Visual Psychology of the fonts.
:p:p
 

Saint Luke

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If there's one thing I've learned, it's that St. Kilda fans in particular are the most reactionary, bipolar fans there are. If the second half looked like the first there would be many saying the selection was a masterclass, etc. etc.

It's a very forest for the trees attitude and while I agree there are mistakes, as with any coach in any team, suggesting a little over a year into his coaching career that Richo isn't up to it is extremely bizarre. Also suggesting that the team that created the structures don't understand them is equally as puzzling. It's OK to question decisions like Newnes being a tagger, or McCartin being subbed off for an ineffectual small forward, but to suggest that you, an internet forum poster with 0 AFL coaching experience knows more about the structures than the team who created them is a strange position to hold.

The first, most important, thing to consider and what makes much of the selection decisions more reasonable through the lens of, is that Richo has stated time, and time, and time again that his teams will be based on effort. While Spencer White likely might be more effective than McCartin, he hasn't shown the effort that Paddy has and as such hasn't been selected. It's the reason he loves Shenton, because he is always giving his all. This standard is being set for the future, and while it may not win us games now, it will set about a culture that is built on earned selection. It is precisely the standard that needs to be set for someone like White to be motivated, if anything ever will do that.

You can look at decisions like moving Savage to HB as being incredibly effective. Tom Lee being a defender may be a good move, and returning Bruce to the forward line surely has. Recognizing decisions that haven't worked and forgetting all those which have is creating a confirmation bias.

It's also interesting to note that you will find many Hawthorn supporters suggesting Clarkson, one of the greatest coaches of the modern era, has made selection errors against Port by not choosing some of the speedier players they have in the 2's like Anderson. Every coach makes mistakes, even the best.
 
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Players who are safe would be Steven, Savage, Dunstan, Schneider, Geary, Billings, Newnes, Roberton, Longer, Armitage, Dempster, Fisher, Bruce, Membrey, Lonie & Sinclair.

Not safe would be Delaney, Curren, McCartin, Wright, Saad & Shenton.

Looking to come in would be Lee, Hickey, Goddard, Webster, McKenzie, Acres, & Templeton. Question marks on Riewoldt, Montagna & Weller.
 
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Who were the other options putting their hands up for FF? White, who is barely getting a touch in the VFL? I think they'll drop Paddy now, but I also think it would have been harsh to have not given him the opportunity to redeem himself after his debut game, so I wasn't surprised that we played him on the weekend.
We could indeed have played someone like Curren in a tagging role, but it's incredibly clear that the club wanted Newnes to have a go at it, so that he could learn a bit about playing in the guts at AFL level, from someone that has come top 10 in a couple of Brownlow medals. I dare say he would have learned a hell of a lot from someone that got 24 contested possessions and a bunch of clearances for the game. These sort of moves are not being made to necessarily give us the best chance to win that particular game, but to give us a better chance to win games in 2+ years time. If it costs us a win now, so be it, especially if that happens to get us a certain concession at the end of the year.
To be fair, I wouldn't have made many changes after the Collingwood loss either, as there just weren't any obvious candidates who "deserved" to be dropped, after repeated poor performances.

It's very, very clear that we are playing the long game here and are not as concerned about whether we win these current games as we would usually be and the sooner everyone understands and accepts that the sooner they'll be less angry and frustrated.

I'm pretty sure that if we weren't in rebuild mode, with more of an eye to the future than the present, didn't have the potential to get a PP at the end of the year and were just desperate to win every game, that we would have moved Curren onto Murphy, would have moved Savage away from the role he was struggling in and so-on, but it's pretty clear that that's not the case.

We just about need to treat this year as a "practice year", like watching us playing NAB Cup/Challenge, where it's not so much about the wins, but more about experimenting, learning, developing and so-on and where any wins are a bonus.
I agree with about 99% of this.

However, we should be aiming to win those winnable games & save the 'experiments' for games we will most likely lose. Carlton fielded a very beatable side on Saturday & thus, we should be allowed to question the idiocy of some of the matchups that ultimately led to our demise.

1) If Weller is injured, surely Curren plays the main midfield tagging role - even if he was tagging Cripps, it would have been more beneficial that what he was doing at half forward IMO

2) Minchington in for Saad was a no brainer for mine. Better skills, better around the ground, better player IMO

3) Leaving Newnes on Murphy, when they had a forward tag on Savage that killed our run from defence? Sorry, Newnes & his booming boot needed to be off the back flank to compensate for Savage being all but tagged out of it.

4) Subbing out McCartin? Odd decision, as it completely wrecked the structure of our forward line. At least with Paddy there, he was bringing the ball to ground & the smalls were doing very well (Lonie, Sinclair)

I'm all for experimenting & trying things, but do it when we're probably going to lose. Failing to send a genuine tagger to one of their mids absoluely robbed us of a decent fight in the second half IMO
 
I agree with about 99% of this.

However, we should be aiming to win those winnable games & save the 'experiments' for games we will most likely lose. Carlton fielded a very beatable side on Saturday & thus, we should be allowed to question the idiocy of some of the matchups that ultimately led to our demise.

1) If Weller is injured, surely Curren plays the main midfield tagging role - even if he was tagging Cripps, it would have been more beneficial that what he was doing at half forward IMO

2) Minchington in for Saad was a no brainer for mine. Better skills, better around the ground, better player IMO

3) Leaving Newnes on Murphy, when they had a forward tag on Savage that killed our run from defence? Sorry, Newnes & his booming boot needed to be off the back flank to compensate for Savage being all but tagged out of it.

4) Subbing out McCartin? Odd decision, as it completely wrecked the structure of our forward line. At least with Paddy there, he was bringing the ball to ground & the smalls were doing very well (Lonie, Sinclair)

I'm all for experimenting & trying things, but do it when we're probably going to lose. Failing to send a genuine tagger to one of their mids absoluely robbed us of a decent fight in the second half IMO
A whole lot of this. It's fine to experiment and give kids learning roles. But not when we're playing our one game in a new market where we already haven't won. And not when, if we do things right, we CAN win. We weren't playing Fremantle or Hawthorn. We were playing flipping Carlton. The AFL is not doing us many favours at the moment, but this was one solid they had given us: "Here is the crappest team we can give you to help you get across the line and get that win you desperately need in NZ". And we didn't take it. Finnis must be tearing his curly gold locks out.
 
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Saad probably shouldn't have been elevated anyway - he should have been given time to get up to speed after 12 months away from the game. Schneider and Sinclair certainly holding their own.

I don't mind the Newnes thing - all part of the development. I can remember Dal, Bally and Joey all doing the same thing at some stage. Curren had some success as a defensive forward late last year, but surely our best defensive forward is Lonie, and he is holding his spot on all of his game, not just the defensive side.

But to be overrun so comprehensively appears to this layperson as related to effort. If the gameplan is taxing and the blokes aren't quite fit enough, then fine, but while that would excuse mistakes by Billings and Lonie, it wouldn't excuse mistakes made by Geary.

And nothing is better for development than wins, and this was a winnable one. You shouldn't lose from four goals up.
 

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i agree with all of the above

i still cant believe we used newnes as a tagger when curren was in the side. its quite possibly the worst coaching match up from our club that i can remember

Nah, having no match up on swan was worse ;)
 

Saint Luke

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Also, I can't find this particularly post at the moment, but someone said that the defensive forward was superfluous and didn't exist in any other team. Brenton Sanderson literally said on air during the game that all the best teams have one now.
 
Also, I can't find this particularly post at the moment, but someone said that the defensive forward was superfluous and didn't exist in any other team. Brenton Sanderson literally said on air during the game that all the best teams have one now.
I said that... well, kinda. I have no problem with the idea of a defensive forward who also gets goals. My point is, that Curren seems to be being played in a role where he's far too defensive - now that COULD be him not playing the role properly, it COULD be because there's so few opportunities in the forward line at the moment, given the amount of time the ball is in our opponents' forward half... but it could also be because we have at least three, and sometimes four, people playing that exact same role (Saad, Sinc, Lones, Curren), and it could be that there is an unhealthy over-emphasis on defence in the forward line.
 

VDS66

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Saad probably shouldn't have been elevated anyway - he should have been given time to get up to speed after 12 months away from the game. Schneider and Sinclair certainly holding their own.

I don't mind the Newnes thing - all part of the development. I can remember Dal, Bally and Joey all doing the same thing at some stage. Curren had some success as a defensive forward late last year, but surely our best defensive forward is Lonie, and he is holding his spot on all of his game, not just the defensive side.

But to be overrun so comprehensively appears to this layperson as related to effort. If the gameplan is taxing and the blokes aren't quite fit enough, then fine, but while that would excuse mistakes by Billings and Lonie, it wouldn't excuse mistakes made by Geary.

And nothing is better for development than wins, and this was a winnable one. You shouldn't lose from four goals up.

FWIW, I reckon Geary is over rated and C grade at best...

However, in defence of the old boys, when you are surrounded by inexperience, it puts heaps more pressure on your own game, because you also have to make up for others.

not always the case, but Dempster and Fish perform better when they had a decent group around them.

Not having that extra opponent blocked for you etc can cut short your diposal time.

That said, no excuses for unforced errors.
 
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