Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[royals1922]

Here's an interesting one.

I found this article from the Albany Advertiser of 7 October 1935:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article70246517

It lists the nicknames of the then VFL sides:

Tigers Richmond
Swans South Melbourne
Magpies Collingwood
Black Cats - Geelong
Bulldogs Footscray
Seagulls - St Kilda
Mayblooms Hawthorn
Red Legs - Melbourne
Dons Essendon
Northerners - NM
Blues - Carlton
Maroons - Fitzroy

The wording of the articles seems to suggest that it is a syndicated article that emanates from the Sporting Globe of 21 September 1935.

This is confirmed in some ways by the article in Table Talk on 27 June 1929:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article146452546

which details the name as:

Melbourne - Fuchsias/Red Legs - confirmed in Table Talk on 15 June 1933

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149547639

Fitzroy - Maroons
Richmond - Tigers
Essendon - Same Olds
NM - Northerners
Carlton - Dark Blues
Geelong - Pivotians
Hawthorn - Mayblooms

 

[rbartlett]

FYI, a relative of Fred Leach posted a photo of a medallion from 1900 that they believed could be for 'Champion of the Colony' (I know it's a passionate subject, so be respectful when posting any replies)

 

[the croucher]

FYI, a relative of Fred Leach posted a photo of a medallion from 1900 that they believed could be for 'Champion of the Colony' (I know it's a passionate subject, so be respectful when posting any replies)

Actually the medal pictured was awarded for the 1901 season. Nice to know that such item exists.
I notice the medal is awarded by the Collingwood Football Club to Leach as Champion Player that year.

There is no evidence that the so-called Champion of the Colony award ever existed.
Indeed, the lists of mythical winners which is often published shows Leach as winner in 1900,
and the winner in 1901 was allegedly A Thurgood (Essendon).

The football writer of The Argus chose Leach as player of the 1901 season in his article here (halfway down 2nd column of article):
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9607485

Of course, the paper didn't actually make any actual presentation, but the article was simply an end-of-season review.
No doubt, some other papers had similar articles and football writers with them also sometimes wrote reviews in a similar manner.
Again, some of them probably chose a "player of the year."

Fitzroy was another club which in the late 1890s or very early 1900s on at least one occasion presented a player at the club with a special medal in recognition of a press writer naming the "player of the year." Will find my copy of Jim Main's history (which includes reprints of pages from annual reports) and confirm which year and player. I do recall noticing that the player (Hickey or Grace i think) was not the name shown on the Champion/Colony list for that year.

 

[SJ]

Bloody nice medal though.

 

[royals1922]

If you want to see a picture of Fred Leach, Charlie Pannam, the essendon gf team of 1901as well as game photos go to the Punch 12 September 1901 at pages 4 to 5. 14 individual essendon players have photos.
I cant get the citation over to this post but Im on a phone.
The photos are a cracker.

 

[royals1922]

If you want to see a picture of Fred Leach, Charlie Pannam, the essendon gf team of 1901as well as game photos go to the Punch 12 September 1901 at pages 4 to 5. 14 individual essendon players have photos.
I cant get the citation over to this post but Im on a phone.
The photos are a cracker.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page20470866

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page20470867

 

[royals1922]

More on Champion of the Colony

In this 10th of June 1904 article from the Fitzroy City Press, Mick Grace is listed as having been champion of the colony twice

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65652220

Yet Mick Grace is listed as having been CC only once, in 1899.

 

[35Daicos]

More on Champion of the Colony

In this 10th of June 1904 article from the Fitzroy City Press, Mick Grace is listed as having been champion of the colony twice

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65652220

Yet Mick Grace is listed as having been CC only once, in 1899.

I'm happy to stay out of any argument about Champion of the Colony, but I thought this at least worth posting (it's copied from a 1910 article in The Referee):-

"Twice acknowledged to be Victoria's champion, M.G. was also crack goal-kicker in 1906 (his thirteenth season). Besides he was the first to kick 50 goals in a year in league [VFL] competition. He did not mention these things, as he is as uncommunicative as a sphinx when the subject of conversation happens to be Mick Grace."

http://australianfootball.com/articles/view/A+chat+with+Mick+Grace/1015

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/120137014

 

[royals1922]

I'm happy to stay out of any argument about Champion of the Colony, but I thought this at least worth posting (it's copied from a 1910 article in The Referee):-

"Twice acknowledged to be Victoria's champion, M.G. was also crack goal-kicker in 1906 (his thirteenth season). Besides he was the first to kick 50 goals in a year in league [VFL] competition. He did not mention these things, as he is as uncommunicative as a sphinx when the subject of conversation happens to be Mick Grace."

http://australianfootball.com/articles/view/A+chat+with+Mick+Grace/1015

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/120137014

I'm not getting into that topic apart from bringing up hard evidence of a sort, if referred to.

Early on though the references to CC as much refer to the club rather than the player.

 

[royals1922]

More on Mick Grace.


He died at the relatively young age of 37 in 1912.

This obituary from the Bairnsdale newspaper of 25 May 1912

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article86310976

says he was considered the best player in 2 successive seasons (emphasis added).

And this from the Adelaide Advertiser of 25 May 1912

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5346601

 

[royals1922]

I suspect that the year suggested for Mick Grace's second Champion of the Colony is 1898.

This article by Jack Worrall from the referee of 28 September 1898 declares Mick to be Champion of the Colony

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121535354

The player ascribed the 1898 CC was the Colingwood player Dick Condon.

 

[fabulousphil]

I am willing to bet that the term Shinboners relates to the hurlers who played at Arden Street, they had their own ground with a 6 ft fence around it.

I imagine, more than football, hurling is a pretty dangerous game for shins

From reading some trove reports i think at one stage the Arden St ground was the center of hurling in Melbourne.

A novelty in the way of public amusements took place yesterday on the Comunn na Fienne ground at South Geelong This was an Irish hurling match played between two teams of twenty-one each, selected by Mr Caffrey and MrMaloney. The game lasted some four hours,and resulted in a drawn battle, either side having made two goals. But for the "shticks" striking the shinbone or the ankle of the player instead of the ball, this game seems to be quite equal to cricket. It has this advantage, that it keeps all the players almost continually em-ployed. "We hear it is the intention of those who admire the game to establish a hurling club at the first convenient opportunity.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150407863

just a tad more circumstantial evidence IMO, although obviously not at Arden Street.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Over the years while researching Melbourne I've found several incidences when the newspapers have reported a player to be involved in a match which he's not credited with in official AFL records. There have been a few mentions of incidents like this in threads recently with players probably not being born on the date assigned to them, or having a different club of origin to the 'official' source so I thought it would be worth a thread where you can dump any that you find in which don't deserve their own thread.

Have been looking at 1907 VFL season and identified a couple of likely errors in official records
1. Round 4: Carlton v Fitzroy
Both The Argus and The Age name Caldwell as a promising player for Fitzroy - while Arthur and Jim are obvious candidates they are both listed as amongst the best players for Williamstown on the same day in The Argus and The Australasian. Also not clear which of the Fitzroy players in the current official record should be excluded.

2. Round 6: Fitzroy v Essendon
The Argus, The Age and The Australasian all mention McWilliams from Eaglehawk as playing for Fitzroy. This is almost certainly George McWilliam who played in Rds 12 & 13 but there is little info I can see to positively identify him. Three players in the official record are not mentioned in match reports - Appleton, Johnson and C. Naismith so likely that one of these did not play.

Any help progressing either of these would be welcome

 

[35Daicos]

Have been looking at 1907 VFL season and identified a couple of likely errors in official records

2. Round 6: Fitzroy v Essendon
The Argus, The Age and The Australasian all mention McWilliams from Eaglehawk as playing for Fitzroy. This is almost certainly George McWilliam who played in Rds 12 & 13 but there is little info I can see to positively identify him. Three players in the official record are not mentioned in match reports - Appleton, Johnson and C. Naismith so likely that one of these did not play.

Any help progressing either of these would be welcome

This looks to be an excellent find, as there appears to be little doubt that McWilliam played for Fitzroy in the round 6 game.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228908 (Bendigo Advertiser, 04 June 1907)
McWilliam, the Bendigo skipper, will play for Fitzroy.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228924
He played (two days later) on the Wednesday for Eaglehawk.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228948
He represented the Bendigo League against the VFL on the (following) Saturday. Three games in five days, seemingly!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10135181
McWilliam(s) was said to have played well but not mentioned in The Argus as a new player in the round 12 game (officially his first game), yet it was said that St Kilda's Williams had debuted in the match. The Age report named McWilliam(s) among the best players, but only mentioned the St Kilda man as having played his first match.

I can't find anything which indicates who might have not played out of Appleton, Johnson and C. Naismith, though only the latter two were in the team the next week, leaving Appleton as a fair chance to have missed the round 6 game.

 

[35Daicos]

Have been looking at 1907 VFL season and identified a couple of likely errors in official records
1. Round 4: Carlton v Fitzroy
Both The Argus and The Age name Caldwell as a promising player for Fitzroy - while Arthur and Jim are obvious candidates they are both listed as amongst the best players for Williamstown on the same day in The Argus and The Australasian. Also not clear which of the Fitzroy players in the current official record should be excluded.

I thought this looked familiar!:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-mystery-of-jimmy-nolan.1070843/#post-34216976

I responded with (but didn't find anything else):- From Williamstown Chronicle 13 April 1907:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69698498

"while young Caldwell is said to be likely to hang on to the strings of Fitzroy." also "and in addition there is Matthews, booked for St. Kilda, and Caldwell for Fitzroy. What talent to be deprived of.!" This certainly seems to refer to Caldwell of Williamstown playing for Fitzroy that year.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two weeks later in the Williamstown Chronicle:- "and much gratification was expressed amongst supporters at Caldwell, jnr, taking the field."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69698566

It seems obvious that (Jim?) Caldwell decided to stay with Williamstown in 1907, though he must have been training with Fitzroy. My guess is that there was a case of mistaken identity as far as the reporters at the round 4 game were concerned. Mick Mornane played his first (and last) game for Fitzroy that day, perhaps someone mixed him up with Caldwell:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/030619070518.html
Mornane is not mentioned in match reports in The Age, The Argus or The Australasian, while Caldwell is in two of the three.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/6446624 (01 June 1907)
South Melbourne are after J. Caldwell. It is probable he may go.

 

[the croucher]

Was looking through tribunal records on the old AFL stats site via Wayback Machine and noticed that in Rnd 17 in 1914 Dave McNamara (St Kilda) was suspended. If same rules applied then as they did later, then a playing coach could neither play nor coach whilst under suspension - therefore it is likely that St Kilda needed a "caretaker" coach for Rnd 18 final game of year vs University.

Have been looking on Trove but no specific ref found yet, but if true this will be the 102nd game on my list of "caretaker coach" instances.

 

[royals1922]

This looks to be an excellent find, as there appears to be little doubt that McWilliam played for Fitzroy in the round 6 game.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228908 (Bendigo Advertiser, 04 June 1907)
McWilliam, the Bendigo skipper, will play for Fitzroy.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228924
He played (two days later) on the Wednesday for Eaglehawk.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/9228948
He represented the Bendigo League against the VFL on the (following) Saturday. Three games in five days, seemingly!

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10135181
McWilliam(s) was said to have played well but not mentioned in The Argus as a new player in the round 12 game (officially his first game), yet it was said that St Kilda's Williams had debuted in the match. The Age report named McWilliam(s) among the best players, but only mentioned the St Kilda man as having played his first match.

I can't find anything which indicates who might have not played out of Appleton, Johnson and C. Naismith, though only the latter two were in the team the next week, leaving Appleton as a fair chance to have missed the round 6 game.

Naismith played in the game about 1 June 1907, see the report of the Prahran Telegraph of 1 June 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144507682

He is said to have been replaced in the 29 June 1907 game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139764798
Appleton is listed as having played in the game about 1 June 1907 by the Australasian

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139763028

Also found a nice picture of Fitzroy Footballers in the 1 June 1907 edition of the australasian

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page11422846


Also some perspective to the round 6 game.

Frank Abbott who had played round 5 for Fitzroys was sensationally stood down a day or two before round 6 for taking inducements


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10638924

The report said S abbott but the details mentioned match Frank Abbott. so at the last minute for round 6 a change had to be made.

 

[royals1922]

Was looking through tribunal records on the old AFL stats site via Wayback Machine and noticed that in Rnd 17 in 1914 Dave McNamara (St Kilda) was suspended. If same rules applied then as they did later, then a playing coach could neither play nor coach whilst under suspension - therefore it is likely that St Kilda needed a "caretaker" coach for Rnd 18 final game of year vs University.

Have been looking on Trove but no specific ref found yet, but if true this will be the 102nd game on my list of "caretaker coach" instances.

Dave McNamara missed round 18 versus University

This is what he was reported for:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10803208

More graphically described by a Terang newspaper


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article129368349


He was later disqualified:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10803842

As was another player until 1915

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10804856

In the game against University a raft of juniors was played


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66397865

McNamara was not present


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article92042415

No reference is made to who was coaching

 

[royals1922]

Dave McNamara missed round 18 versus University

This is what he was reported for:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10803208

More graphically described by a Terang newspaper


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article129368349


He was later disqualified:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10803842

As was another player until 1915

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10804856

In the game against University a raft of juniors was played


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66397865

McNamara was not present


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article92042415

No reference is made to who was coaching

Reports are also that McNamara protested his innocence and said he'd retire after the tribunal hearing.

See the report of the Referee

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120279104

 

[35Daicos]

Naismith played in the game about 1 June 1907, see the report of the Prahran Telegraph of 1 June 1907

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144507682

He is said to have been replaced in the 29 June 1907 game

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139764798

Fitzroy had replaced C. Naismith and McLellan with Fontaine and Walker

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139764798

Interesting! It does indeed say that (C) Naismith was replaced but the report is on the Round 8 Fitzroy vs Collingwood game from 22 June 1907. AFL Tables (and no doubt the official records) have him as playing that game.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/040619070622.html

No mention of Naismith in (rd. 8) The Argus match report:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10643920

C Naismith is listed as having played in rd. 9 and kicked a goal, but isn't mentioned in The Argus as having returned to the side. Perhaps the newspaper got it wrong?

The Age issue that would have covered the rd. 8 match is not available, sadly. The Age report for the rd. 9 South Melbourne vs. Fitzroy game says "Abbott replacing Bartlett" for Fitzroy:- https://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19070701&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (page 6)
Both played according to the records:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/061619070629.html

Bartlett's name isn't mentioned in any of the round 9 match reports I've seen.

This seems never ending! In trying to figure out when Bartlett returned to the side (or if he actually went out of it) I checked The Australasian report for the rd. 11 Fitzroy vs. Carlton game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11423295
"Their centreman, McGregor, carried off all the honours against Bartlett, who, in the unavoidable absence of Beauchamp, had been appointed to the onerous position." Beauchamp is listed as having played:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/030619070713.html

This report of the game from The Argus seems to confirm that Beauchamp (Beecham) did not play:- Fitzroy had the worst of the defections when they met Carlton on the Fitzroy-Cricket ground on Saturday, Jenkins and Beecham being two of the notable absentees.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10156204

The Age:- accentuated by the absence of Jenkins, Fontaine and Beauchamp.
https://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19070715&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

It was suggested I look at The Herald as they published team lists for each match so I dropped in to the State Library to check the microfilm...
For 2. Round 6: Fitzroy v Essendon it seems like C. Naismith is the player who missed out. This also makes sense as some of the match reports refer to "Naismith" without any initial, whereas when both of them were playing they almost always use an initial.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I thought this looked familiar!:- http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-mystery-of-jimmy-nolan.1070843/#post-34216976

I responded with (but didn't find anything else):- From Williamstown Chronicle 13 April 1907:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69698498

"while young Caldwell is said to be likely to hang on to the strings of Fitzroy." also "and in addition there is Matthews, booked for St. Kilda, and Caldwell for Fitzroy. What talent to be deprived of.!" This certainly seems to refer to Caldwell of Williamstown playing for Fitzroy that year.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two weeks later in the Williamstown Chronicle:- "and much gratification was expressed amongst supporters at Caldwell, jnr, taking the field."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69698566

It seems obvious that (Jim?) Caldwell decided to stay with Williamstown in 1907, though he must have been training with Fitzroy. My guess is that there was a case of mistaken identity as far as the reporters at the round 4 game were concerned. Mick Mornane played his first (and last) game for Fitzroy that day, perhaps someone mixed him up with Caldwell:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1907/030619070518.html
Mornane is not mentioned in match reports in The Age, The Argus or The Australasian, while Caldwell is in two of the three.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/6446624 (01 June 1907)
South Melbourne are after J. Caldwell. It is probable he may go.

The Herald does not list Caldwell but does include Mornane - different sources with different data makes it very difficult to be sure but given the references to the Caldwells playing for Williamstown (both listed in the team in The Herald) I suspect The Argus & The Age may be wrong here

 

[35Daicos]

It was suggested I look at The Herald as they published team lists for each match so I dropped in to the State Library to check the microfilm...
For 2. Round 6: Fitzroy v Essendon it seems like C. Naismith is the player who missed out. This also makes sense as some of the match reports refer to "Naismith" without any initial, whereas when both of them were playing they almost always use an initial.

View attachment 146176

Excellent. It's quite frustrating that the team lineups can't be found online for some of the earlier games. This makes it very clear that McWilliam played.

 

[35Daicos]

The Herald does not list Caldwell but does include Mornane - different sources with different data makes it very difficult to be sure but given the references to the Caldwells playing for Williamstown (both listed in the team in The Herald) I suspect The Argus & The Age may be wrong here

That's how it looks to me. Perhaps the reporters asked someone from the club who the new player was, and a mistake was made. Given that "Caldwell" (who may have been Mornane) was said to have played well (I think) it's odd that he disappeared after one game.

 

[royals1922]

I looked last night for any footballer in Australia named Mornane between 1900 to 1930 and I cant find any credible reference to a player Mornane playing. I thought the player might have been called Murnane rather than Mornane and the name Murnane was far more commonplace.

That's how it looks to me. Perhaps the reporters asked someone from the club who the new player was, and a mistake was made. Given that "Caldwell" (who may have been Mornane) was said to have played well (I think) it's odd that he disappeared after one game.