Review Round 22, 2015 - Hawthorn vs Brisbane Lions

Who were your five best players against Hawthorn?


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I don't think defensive run is necessarily a problem for us, or why we get caught out of position on the transition after a turnover. It is more a problem with slow decision making and innate understanding of where to run to which sees us hesitate and get caught out of position. It's not every player, every time, but we play a defensive game with such a low margin of error that when one player is slow to transition and moves to the wrong spot, or covers the wrong option it completely *s us. It will be a good blanket coverage when we can tighten up in the middle and become a little bit more predictable when we are going to lose the ball, but at the moment we either slow right down because we are always set up expecting to lose the ball and there is no forward options to move the ball to or we throw everything into attack and are we just don't transition back quick enough because of poor positioning decisions and overcommitting forward.

It's frustrating but I can see a light.
 

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Was at the game today and will be the last time I see the boys live this year. Positives: Cutler is developing physically and as a player - tried really hard today. Zorko rang his guts out today and just kept going. Freeman has a good leap, knows where the ball is and out himself in. Merrett - was really pleased with his leadership today. Muffed a couple of things but listening to him calling out to other players, encouraging them, giving them a pat, directing traffic at times was great. Thought that showed good leadership. Also could see how disappointed he was with himself when he was outclassed by the Hawks. A fit Pearce is something to look forward too and could see him returning to some of that form today. Frustrations: Rich continues to puzzle me at the moment - sometimes looks disinterested and is he carrying an injury? Handballing out of the backline is fraught with danger against good teams like the Hawks.

A few Lions supporters around today so good to see the colours.
 

John_Proctor

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Looked at the stats. Mcstay 6 posessions and zero marks. Anyone have a report on where he played? Long season for him but zero marks is a sign of low work rate.
 

pOleK

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actually glad i left at quarter time,got to imagine the rest of the game and think of a scenario where we won :rolleyes:. Got home and saw the scoreboard and i was like oh well, what else could i have expected.
 
Thought McStay made some good pack spoils. It's not always about stats. Gotta expect he will be up and down at this stage.
Clarke fumbled a lot but could be fatigue. Has carried our backline for large parts of the season.
Really liked the look of Dawson when he came on.
Freeman will be more than serviceable.
 
I know we are all quite happy with where our young tall defence is at but their collective lack of ability with ball in hand is going to continue to cost us. It isn't just skill errors. They move the ball far too slowly. Decisions take too long to get made. They don't run off their opponents and, when they do, they run into trouble. At this stage, they aren't very well rounded footballers and it just stagnates the side.

I hope more development time is the answer for Andrews but I suspect Clarke will always be a bit of a liability with ball in hand. You can carry one player like that but any more than that and you get exposed.
 
Yeah good point pobt - I just don't think we can carry so many backs who can't use the ball. It kills us in transition . Clarke is like Merrett in his young days - I have no confidence in him when he has the ball. I also don't think we can carry backs who all just want to spoil. If I was the coach I would be going with a Merrett Gardiner and Andrews as the talls, with Harwood, beams and Hanley as the ball users.

I still haven't made my mind up on Clarke but long term don't see him in the team.
 

Judge

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I still haven't made my mind up on Clarke but long term don't see him in the team.

I'm also struggling with Clarke a bit at the moment, for the same reasons given above.

Quite simply, Clarke can't handball to save his life, and his positional play and decision-making haven't really improved at all this year.

Obviously Clarke's been under enormous pressure in a lot of games this year, but I'm starting to think that he's unlikely to be better than an honest toiler who is a back-up tall defender rather than top 22.

Maybe Jase will eventually become a poor man's Tom McDonald, useful but not greatly inspiring.

I'd love him to prove me wrong though, he has great character and is no doubt an asset off-field.
 

jackess

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Clarke runs at 80% DE and Andrews at 84%. They'll continue to improve. I don't think they're a liability. Most teams have 2 key backs that aren't brilliant kicks or offer run and carry off half back.

Sure I'd love to have Rance and Harry Taylor back there but having 2 key backs we can lock in for the next 8-10 years isn't my greatest worry.
 
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Clarke runs at 80% DE and Andrews at 84%. They'll continue to improve. I don't think they're a liability. Most teams have 2 key backs that aren't brilliant kicks or offer run and carry off half back.

That's simply not true or, probably more accurately, it misrepresents what the better sides produce. Go and have a look at the top 8 sides and it is clear that the unskilled stopper is underrepresented. Most of the quality defenders win the footy and then know what to do with it. They don't have to be Paul Roos incarnate - but they move the ball in such a way that it enables, rather than restricts, the way the side plays with ball in hand.

And citing disposal efficiency completely ignores the points that I made. What about the times when Clarke holds the ball for way too long and then handballs laterally to a teammate who is immediately under pressure? Or our inability to execute a switch quickly because the guys have to stop, take 4 or 5 steps before delivering a loopy pass to their teammate. All that takes time and allows the opposition zone to shift across and into place. Disposal efficiency is about the last stat I'd look at for effectiveness of key defenders moving the footy. We've had plenty of times when Merrett has been our most efficient, despite giving nothing in terms of putting the opposition defensive structure under pressure.

I can handle one unskilled stopper down back. Right now, we're playing two and then surrounding them with guys who aren't highly skilled themselves or who don't read the game well. That's where the development of Andrews, Gardiner, Paparone, McStay etc becomes critical because we simply can't afford for Clarke to play alongside other negating, unsophisticated or under skilled types.
 

royboys4eva

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If you feel like a laugh check the Hawk fans review of the game yesterday. Apparently Rockliff did nothing and they barely noticed any of his 45 touches. No mention of him also kicking a goal and applying 14 tackles. I would have 45 touches for the bottom side against the premiers in a big loss was a massive effort. Not to mention the tackles and goal. But if that wasn't enough i saw a few people say McEvoy had a good game :) I must have watched another game - all i saw was Martin kill him in the hit outs and kill him around the ground and the stats back that up.

I am guessing these same Hawks posters wont be heard of when the Hawks start rolling down the ladder.
 

jackess

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That's simply not true or, probably more accurately, it misrepresents what the better sides produce. Go and have a look at the top 8 sides and it is clear that the unskilled stopper is underrepresented. Most of the quality defenders win the footy and then know what to do with it. They don't have to be Paul Roos incarnate - but they move the ball in such a way that it enables, rather than restricts, the way the side plays with ball in hand.

And citing disposal efficiency completely ignores the points that I made. What about the times when Clarke holds the ball for way too long and then handballs laterally to a teammate who is immediately under pressure? Or our inability to execute a switch quickly because the guys have to stop, take 4 or 5 steps before delivering a loopy pass to their teammate. All that takes time and allows the opposition zone to shift across and into place. Disposal efficiency is about the last stat I'd look at for effectiveness of key defenders moving the footy. We've had plenty of times when Merrett has been our most efficient, despite giving nothing in terms of putting the opposition defensive structure under pressure.

I can handle one unskilled stopper down back. Right now, we're playing two and then surrounding them with guys who aren't highly skilled themselves or who don't read the game well. That's where the development of Andrews, Gardiner, Paparone, McStay etc becomes critical because we simply can't afford for Clarke to play alongside other negating, unsophisticated or under skilled types.

Clarke (21) and Andrews (18) will improve. Their inexperienced and playing in a very dysfunctional team.

They only have to be at the level of Richards and Grundy, McPharlin and Dawson or Lake and Stratton none of which are especially skilled.

The difference it'll make to the side for Clarke and Andrews to get to their level will make little difference to our overall performance so it's not a big issue for me. As long as they're not complete liabilities.

Also, what's the alternative?

We need them to improve, most of our squad needs a lot of improvement and the club will back them into make those improvements.
 

Jman78

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One issue with Clarke that we cant discount is when he labours in making decisions its due to there possibly not being any? You also have to remember he is bloody young.... Rance was the whipping boy at Richmond for a long long time and only came on in the last couple of years.
 

Milk Steak

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Spot on POBT. I like Clarkes effort and I hope he comes along,but it's always an uncomfortable feeling when he's got the ball in hand, especially when he's switching play across field.
 

royboys4eva

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That's simply not true or, probably more accurately, it misrepresents what the better sides produce. Go and have a look at the top 8 sides and it is clear that the unskilled stopper is underrepresented. Most of the quality defenders win the footy and then know what to do with it. They don't have to be Paul Roos incarnate - but they move the ball in such a way that it enables, rather than restricts, the way the side plays with ball in hand.

And citing disposal efficiency completely ignores the points that I made. What about the times when Clarke holds the ball for way too long and then handballs laterally to a teammate who is immediately under pressure? Or our inability to execute a switch quickly because the guys have to stop, take 4 or 5 steps before delivering a loopy pass to their teammate. All that takes time and allows the opposition zone to shift across and into place. Disposal efficiency is about the last stat I'd look at for effectiveness of key defenders moving the footy. We've had plenty of times when Merrett has been our most efficient, despite giving nothing in terms of putting the opposition defensive structure under pressure.

I can handle one unskilled stopper down back. Right now, we're playing two and then surrounding them with guys who aren't highly skilled themselves or who don't read the game well. That's where the development of Andrews, Gardiner, Paparone, McStay etc becomes critical because we simply can't afford for Clarke to play alongside other negating, unsophisticated or under skilled types.

Exactly how i feel mate but you worded it much better :)

Simply going forward we cannot have Merrett Clarke, Paparone, Gardiner/Beasley all lining up in defence. We just get no run out of defence and they are poor decision makers and to slow moving the ball. Sure some of it may have to do with their options down the field but do you honestly think these players are going to become elite users of the ball over night.

I am loathe to compare with other teams but watching the Dogs last night and they drive all their attack off half back through Murphy Boyd Johannisen. We really need to get Richy and Harwood fit and firing and giving us that run out of the back line. Claye Beams is another one who is a good user of the ball who played some good footy down back this year before injury.

I really don't want to see us line up next year with Merrett Clarke Gardiner Andrews and Paparone all down back.
 
Clarke (21) and Andrews (18) will improve. Their inexperienced and playing in a very dysfunctional team.

They only have to be at the level of Richards and Grundy, McPharlin and Dawson or Lake and Stratton none of which are especially skilled.

The difference it'll make to the side for Clarke and Andrews to get to their level will make little difference to our overall performance so it's not a big issue for me. As long as they're not complete liabilities.

Also, what's the alternative?

We need them to improve, most of our squad needs a lot of improvement and the club will back them into make those improvements.
I'm not even sure what you are arguing about given you now accept that those players aren't at the level of most KPDs and accept that they need to improve. That was my entire point.

* me, you can be a contrary sod.
 

Milk Steak

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Out of those guys I'd say Paparone is a decent ball user (by foot anyway) and I'd almost like to see him in the roaming wingman role a bit like Westoff does sometimes for Port. Harwood and Beams are the most natural runners from half back IMO and I for one wouldn't mind Hanley going back there again. I think Hanley brings us the most from there as opposed to the midfield
 

carnthemlions

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I'm not even sure what you are arguing about given you now accept that those players aren't at the level of most KPDs and accept that they need to improve. That was my entire point.

**** me, you can be a contrary sod.
I think the point he was arguing is that they ARE at the level of most KPDs, more or less. Put most KPDs in our side and they would look just as unsure. Alex Rance would run around like a chook with its head cut off and turn it over half the time if he played for us.
I'm also struggling with Clarke a bit at the moment, for the same reasons given above.

Quite simply, Clarke can't handball to save his life, and his positional play and decision-making haven't really improved at all this year.

Obviously Clarke's been under enormous pressure in a lot of games this year, but I'm starting to think that he's unlikely to be better than an honest toiler who is a back-up tall defender rather than top 22.

Maybe Jase will eventually become a poor man's Tom McDonald, useful but not greatly inspiring.

I'd love him to prove me wrong though, he has great character and is no doubt an asset off-field.
Can't agree with you on Clarke. He was recruited as a skinny 18 year project player who'd only played country footy and has made a lot of progress since then. I think it would be a bit premature to assume that he doesn't the potential to continue to improve.
 

jackess

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I'm not even sure what you are arguing about given you now accept that those players aren't at the level of most KPDs and accept that they need to improve. That was my entire point.

**** me, you can be a contrary sod.

Go back to my first post to see who the contrary sod is.

They're not readymade key backs but at 18 and 21 I don't see an issue with this as long as they're not liabilities. Going at over 80% DE making safe choices is ok. Long term as long as they improve at the rate young key backs usually do I see it as a big worry.

Our under performing, experienced midfield who are all in their mid 20s is a much bigger issue IMO and the forward line which clearly has major personnel issues.
 

kylegee28

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Knee jerk reaction to Clarke's disposal? If his ball use was that big of an issue, we'd be having this discussion every week. Kid will be fine.
 
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